Bart Ehrman on gains and losses to Western Civilization due to Christianity

[Dutch Uncle]

So you don't think there is anything particularly unique or impressive about western civilization, and you'd be perfectly happy running the clock backwards and risk European history taking a completely different trajectory.

You nailed it with the first four words. Fredo has "issues" and he's very bitter about it. He's in pain and, like most weak-willed people like MAGAts, he seeks to spread his pain to others in hopes of reducing it.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

There's is nothing new under the sun. -- Ecclesiastes 1:9

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Good point. I think Bart Ehrman was specifically referring to the Roman pagan traditions, and what would have happened if that pagan tradition in Europe had not been displaced by Christianity.

what other beliefs were Mayans regularly coming into contact with, that wasn't the Catholics who murdered them?

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Good point. I think Bart Ehrman was specifically referring to the Roman pagan traditions, and what would have happened if that pagan tradition in Europe had not been displaced by Christianity.

some pagans took over Christianity and made it an evil power structure.

it was retrofitted to be the imperial cult.

you routinely ignore Christ's most important teachings.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Good point. I think Bart Ehrman was specifically referring to the Roman pagan traditions, and what would have happened if that pagan tradition in Europe had not been displaced by Christianity.

Ehrman is conjecturing a lot of "what ifs". He's dunking himself in hypotheticals since it's impossible to predict 2000 years of human progress.

Example: How do we get from the Sermon on the Mount to the Spanish Inquisition or Manifest Destiny? Could Peter or any of the other Apostles have predicted that's where it'd end up? No, of course not. Same goes for predicting what would have happened if Julius Caesar hadn't turned the Roman Republic into a dictatorship. We could discuss it as a thought experiment, but that's all it is since it's impossible to predict th course of human events over 2000 years with a large mass of competing people and natural phenomenon.

Example; You and I have discussed the end of the Bronze Age and the invasion of the "Sea Peoples". The theory is that the Sea Peoples were driven out of their homelands by drought. Who, even nowadays, can predict drought 10 years in advance? With that idea in mind, how has drought, meaning famine, been a motivator for human conflict and the course of human events? We can study it's effects in history, but even with modern tech can't predict it. Climatologists give warnings of dire consequences, but no one knows for sure.

 

[Cypress]

Ehrman is conjecturing a lot of "what ifs". He's dunking himself in hypotheticals since it's impossible to predict 2000 years of human progress.

Example: How do we get from the Sermon on the Mount to the Spanish Inquisition or Manifest Destiny? Could Peter or any of the other Apostles have predicted that's where it'd end up? No, of course not. Same goes for predicting what would have happened if Julius Caesar hadn't turned the Roman Republic into a dictatorship. We could discuss it as a thought experiment, but that's all it is since it's impossible to predict th course of human events over 2000 years with a large mass of competing people and natural phenomenon.

Example; You and I have discussed the end of the Bronze Age and the invasion of the "Sea Peoples". The theory is that the Sea Peoples were driven out of their homelands by drought. Who, even nowadays, can predict drought 10 years in advance? With that idea in mind, how has drought, meaning famine, been a motivator for human conflict and the course of human events? We can study it's effects in history, but even with modern tech can't predict it. Climatologists give warnings of dire consequences, but no one knows for sure.

What I hear Ehrman saying is that he doesn't know what would happen if Roman paganism had persisted, and Jesus never existed.

He's saying there wouldn't have been a High Middle Age, a Renaissance, an Enlightenment, a Michelangelo, Rubens, a Newton, a Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, or Bach.

There would have been something. But it would have been totally different.

He's also seems to be saying that there's a mistaken tendency in the secular 21st century to believe that Christianity stopped being a major innovative force by the end of the Middle Ages.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Ehrman is conjecturing a lot of "what ifs". He's dunking himself in hypotheticals since it's impossible to predict 2000 years of human progress.

Example: How do we get from the Sermon on the Mount to the Spanish Inquisition or Manifest Destiny? Could Peter or any of the other Apostles have predicted that's where it'd end up? No, of course not. Same goes for predicting what would have happened if Julius Caesar hadn't turned the Roman Republic into a dictatorship. We could discuss it as a thought experiment, but that's all it is since it's impossible to predict th course of human events over 2000 years with a large mass of competing people and natural phenomenon.

Example; You and I have discussed the end of the Bronze Age and the invasion of the "Sea Peoples". The theory is that the Sea Peoples were driven out of their homelands by drought. Who, even nowadays, can predict drought 10 years in advance? With that idea in mind, how has drought, meaning famine, been a motivator for human conflict and the course of human events? We can study it's effects in history, but even with modern tech can't predict it. Climatologists give warnings of dire consequences, but no one knows for sure.

yes. he's a fucking moron like cypress.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

What I hear Ehrman saying is that he doesn't know what would happen if Roman paganism had persisted, and Jesus never existed.

He's saying there wouldn't have been a High Middle Age, a Renaissance, an Enlightenment, a Michelangelo, Rubens, a Newton, a Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, or Bach.

There would have been something. But it would have been totally different.

He's also seems to be saying that there's a mistaken tendency in the secular 21st century to believe that Christianity stopped being a major innovative force by the end of the Middle Ages.

yes.

and he's a moron. like you.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Ehrman is conjecturing a lot of "what ifs". He's dunking himself in hypotheticals since it's impossible to predict 2000 years of human progress.

Example: How do we get from the Sermon on the Mount to the Spanish Inquisition or Manifest Destiny? Could Peter or any of the other Apostles have predicted that's where it'd end up? No, of course not. Same goes for predicting what would have happened if Julius Caesar hadn't turned the Roman Republic into a dictatorship. We could discuss it as a thought experiment, but that's all it is since it's impossible to predict th course of human events over 2000 years with a large mass of competing people and natural phenomenon.

Example; You and I have discussed the end of the Bronze Age and the invasion of the "Sea Peoples". The theory is that the Sea Peoples were driven out of their homelands by drought. Who, even nowadays, can predict drought 10 years in advance? With that idea in mind, how has drought, meaning famine, been a motivator for human conflict and the course of human events? We can study it's effects in history, but even with modern tech can't predict it. Climatologists give warnings of dire consequences, but no one knows for sure.

cypress is a delusional theocrat.

 

[Cypress]

yes.

and he's a moron. like you.

Simple minds never ask the right questions, and are confused and befuddled when someone smart does.

Professor Ehrman put 30 years of college education and research into framing this question about the evolution of Western civilization, and then deriving important insights about the unveiling of western history.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

What I hear Ehrman saying is that he doesn't know what would happen if Roman paganism had persisted, and Jesus never existed.

He's saying there wouldn't have been a High Middle Age, a Renaissance, an Enlightenment, a Michelangelo, Rubens, a Newton, a Shakespeare, Dostoyevsky, or Bach.

There would have been something. But it would have been totally different.

He's also seems to be saying that there's a mistaken tendency in the secular 21st century to believe that Christianity stopped being a major innovative force by the end of the Middle Ages.

In that case, he's correct, he doesn't know. OTOH, while it's impossible to study all large human societies in complete isolation, we can look at the trends across the human spectrum. Asian and European cultures are different due to their histories, including religions, and environments. The common element being they are all human. Although humans can be very barbaric, human society across the spectrum seems to be moving away from barbarism.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that if you change the variables in an equation, the outcome will be different. Agreed, without Christianity, Western history would have been different, but as noted above, I think there would still have been progress toward a more civilized human society. Note that the Greeks came up with democracy several centuries before Jesus. Rome had a Republic until Caesar fucked it up 50 years before Jesus. In fact, if he hadn't turned Rome into a dictatorship, would there even have been a Jesus since it was the Romans who crucified him?

A society's beliefs are a driving force for change be it the American Revolution, the French Revolution or Putin's invasion of Ukraine. In the latter, who could have predicted the Ukrainians would have survived Putin's invasion? Certainly not Putin. LOL Even if Trump withdrew support, the Ukrainians would fight the Russians just like the French Resistance fought the Nazis or the Irish the British. Christian beliefs helped colonize America be it the Spanish version or the British and French versions. John Locke, the "father of liberalism", was rooted in Christianity. The age of Enlightenment produced men like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. Both were more in tune with the Sermon on the Mount than the Holy Roman Empire meaning, although not dogmatic, were more Christian than the Catholics and Protestants.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Simple minds never ask the right questions, and are confused and befuddled when someone smart does.

Professor Ehrman put 30 years of college education and research into framing this question about the evolution of Western civilization, and then deriving important insights about the unveiling of western history.

You're trying to enlighten a dull mind. Jus' sayin'.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

Simple minds never ask the right questions, and are confused and befuddled when someone smart does.

Professor Ehrman put 30 years of college education and research into framing this question about the evolution of Western civilization, and then deriving important insights about the unveiling of western history.

you keep confusing a horrible use of Christ's teaching to create a power structure, with christ's actual teachings.

you're a theocrate douche-nozzle.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

You're trying to enlighten a dull mind. Jus' sayin'.

I humiliate you every day.

 

[Cypress]

You're trying to enlighten a dull mind. Jus' sayin'.

You're right, the mentally unstable are about as capable of synthesizing information as a brick is.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You're right, the mentally unstable are about as capable of synthesizing information as a brick is.

About the mentally unstable.

IMO, unless I want to toy with them like a cat with a laser, I ignore them as a waste of bandwidth.

 

[Cypress]

About the mentally unstable.

IMO, unless I want to toy with them like a cat with a laser, I ignore them as a waste of bandwidth.

If I totally ignored the mentally unstable, there would only be about two MAGA cultists I could interact with here!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

If I totally ignored the mentally unstable, there would only be about two MAGA cultists I could interact with here!

LOL Agreed it would slow down the conversations.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

In that case, he's correct, he doesn't know. OTOH, while it's impossible to study all large human societies in complete isolation, we can look at the trends across the human spectrum. Asian and European cultures are different due to their histories, including religions, and environments. The common element being they are all human. Although humans can be very barbaric, human society across the spectrum seems to be moving away from barbarism.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that if you change the variables in an equation, the outcome will be different. Agreed, without Christianity, Western history would have been different, but as noted above, I think there would still have been progress toward a more civilized human society. Note that the Greeks came up with democracy several centuries before Jesus. Rome had a Republic until Caesar fucked it up 50 years before Jesus. In fact, if he hadn't turned Rome into a dictatorship, would there even have been a Jesus since it was the Romans who crucified him?

A society's beliefs are a driving force for change be it the American Revolution, the French Revolution or Putin's invasion of Ukraine. In the latter, who could have predicted the Ukrainians would have survived Putin's invasion? Certainly not Putin. LOL Even if Trump withdrew support, the Ukrainians would fight the Russians just like the French Resistance fought the Nazis or the Irish the British. Christian beliefs helped colonize America be it the Spanish version or the British and French versions. John Locke, the "father of liberalism", was rooted in Christianity. The age of Enlightenment produced men like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. Both were more in tune with the Sermon on the Mount than the Holy Roman Empire meaning, although not dogmatic, were more Christian than the Catholics and Protestants.

masons are not Christians.

 

[Cypress]

In that case, he's correct, he doesn't know. OTOH, while it's impossible to study all large human societies in complete isolation, we can look at the trends across the human spectrum. Asian and European cultures are different due to their histories, including religions, and environments. The common element being they are all human. Although humans can be very barbaric, human society across the spectrum seems to be moving away from barbarism.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that if you change the variables in an equation, the outcome will be different. Agreed, without Christianity, Western history would have been different, but as noted above, I think there would still have been progress toward a more civilized human society. Note that the Greeks came up with democracy several centuries before Jesus. Rome had a Republic until Caesar fucked it up 50 years before Jesus. In fact, if he hadn't turned Rome into a dictatorship, would there even have been a Jesus since it was the Romans who crucified him?

A society's beliefs are a driving force for change be it the American Revolution, the French Revolution or Putin's invasion of Ukraine. In the latter, who could have predicted the Ukrainians would have survived Putin's invasion? Certainly not Putin. LOL Even if Trump withdrew support, the Ukrainians would fight the Russians just like the French Resistance fought the Nazis or the Irish the British. Christian beliefs helped colonize America be it the Spanish version or the British and French versions. John Locke, the "father of liberalism", was rooted in Christianity. The age of Enlightenment produced men like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. Both were more in tune with the Sermon on the Mount than the Holy Roman Empire meaning, although not dogmatic, were more Christian than the Catholics and Protestants.

Yes, things would have changed and improved in some ways, no matter what.

The Chinese made advances in applied technology, textiles, engineering over two thousand years prior to sustained European contact. Same with the Indians.

What is utterly unique about western civilization is its development of a liberal education, experimental science, formal logic, fine arts and music evolved to an unprecedented level.

That didnt happen anywhere else on the planet, and East Asian nations were quick to copy and adopt western models in education, science, technology as soon as they saw how superior they were to Eastern models. That's not chauvinism, that's just historical fact.

The question is why these developments occurred uniquely in the West. I don't think it was pure chance. People are always a reflection of their history, culture, and geography.