Auto loans soar in comparison to housing bubble

cawacko

Well-known member
Any one here do work with this type of stuff? I don't see how auto loans would have nearly the same economic impact that housing did but seems it could be a detriment to economic growth if it is a real issue.




Auto Loan Fraud Soars in a Parallel to the Housing Bubble


Borrower fraud in U.S. auto loans is surging, and may approach levels seen in mortgages during last decade’s housing bubble, according to a startup firm that helps lenders sniff out bogus borrowers.

As many as 1 percent of U.S. car loan applications include some type of material misrepresentation, executives at data analytics firm Point Predictive estimated based on reports from banks, finance companies and others. Lenders’ losses from deception may double this year to $6 billion from 2015, the firm forecast.

Those fraud rates are coming closer to the over-1-percent level for mortgages in 2009, when the financial crisis was boiling and more lenders started reporting incidents to one another, Frank McKenna, chief fraud strategist at the firm, said in an interview. While those losses will sting lenders, the impact on the overall economy will likely be much more muted than with the housing crisis, just because there’s less car debt outstanding.

Even so, “We see an extraordinary amount of parallels between the auto and mortgage industries, in terms of the rising levels of hidden fraud,” McKenna said. For home loans, it’s hard to know how widespread the deception was before 2009, because lenders often didn’t report information to one another and may not have even investigated incidents of probable lying much on their own, McKenna said.

Dealer Fraud

Point Predictive has put together a consortium of lenders to share data about dealers and loans. The group, now 13 strong, met at the headquarters of Santander Consumer USA in Dallas last month. Common types of fraud include borrowers lying about their income and their jobs, including falsifying paystubs. Loan applications can also include bogus information about the type of car being financed, or its value. The deception can be perpetrated by consumers, or car dealers, or both.

Auto lenders including banks and finance companies are concerned about consumer fraud, and they’re often even more concerned about fraud among dealers, said Kimberly Sutherland, senior director for fraud and identity management strategy at LexisNexis Risk Solutions in Alpharetta, Georgia. Dealers have an incentive to complete sales, and may better know how to tweak paperwork to get bad loans funded than a regular consumer, said Sutherland, whose firm helps lenders identify risks in their portfolios.

About 3 percent of dealers can be responsible for all of a lender’s fraudulent applications, Point Predictive said in a February report. Losses from auto loan fraud this year will likely be $4 billion to $6 billion, up from $2 billion to $3 billion in 2015, the firm said.

During the housing bubble, as few as 3 percent of mortgage brokers helped perpetrate most or all of the reported fraud, Point Predictive said. Loans that required little or no documentation allowed borrowers and brokers to lie about employment, salary, and other key facts about their financial condition. One borrower’s application for a mortgage said she made $6,900 a month, when she actually made about $3,286.


Trouble is growing in auto loans. The total amount of the debt outstanding has risen more than 50 percent since the end of 2010, a rapid increase. Delinquencies among subprime auto loan borrowers are jumping, and in the fourth quarter of 2016, there was over $1.1 billion of consumer car debt that lenders could not collect, Point Predictive said. In a Federal Reserve survey released Monday, banks said they had tightened their underwriting standards for car loans.

But that won’t necessarily translate into a repeat of the mortgage crisis, because the auto financing market is so much smaller. There was around $1.1 trillion of car loans outstanding at the end of last year, compared with around $10.3 trillion of residential mortgages.

There are cities in the U.S. where borrowers are more likely to default on their car loans within a few months of buying their cars, often a sign of a loan obtained fraudulently. Those “hot spots” include Fort Myers, Florida; Salem, Massachusetts; Gatesville, Texas; Miami; and Laurel, Maryland, Point Predictive said.

DBRS Inc., a ratings firm that assigns grades to bonds backed by auto loans, similarly warned of auto lending fraud in a recent report. Cars can be relocated and sold in used-car markets before lenders repossess them, making vehicles an “appealing” target “to those looking to fraudulently apply for auto loans.”

Some car lenders have been shoring up their collections processes. Santander Consumer USA, one of the biggest makers of subprime auto loans, stopped accepting credit card payments from its borrowers, for example. Other lenders are using sophisticated devices that can track a vehicle, or even turn off an ignition, making it easier to repossess a car.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-soaring-in-a-parallel-to-the-housing-bubble
 
I always figured it was easy to get a car loan because they're so easy to repo. :dunno:

That's exactly why. Miss your payment by an hour and the lender can take your car. With a house the process takes months.

I had a client who owned a large used car dealership, and he readily made loans to folks with bad credit. As part of the deal they had to pay for the lo-jack or whatever the device was that located the car, plus an outrageous interest rate. Some were on a weekly payment schedule. If the payment was due on, say, Thursday and was late, Friday morning they'd pick up the car. At that point all of the past payments were voided and he'd resell the car to another bad credit customer.
 
That's exactly why. Miss your payment by an hour and the lender can take your car. With a house the process takes months.

I had a client who owned a large used car dealership, and he readily made loans to folks with bad credit. As part of the deal they had to pay for the lo-jack or whatever the device was that located the car, plus an outrageous interest rate. Some were on a weekly payment schedule. If the payment was due on, say, Thursday and was late, Friday morning they'd pick up the car. At that point all of the past payments were voided and he'd resell the car to another bad credit customer.

Your client has a class action target on his back, if he is big enough. I've had people float to me he idea of suing those outfits, something to do with the lojack continuing to monitor and bill post charge off or default accelleration. I can't quite recall the idea's specifics. It did pass the "sounds shady" test for suitable Df.
 
Your client has a class action target on his back, if he is big enough. I've had people float to me he idea of suing those outfits, something to do with the lojack continuing to monitor and bill post charge off or default accelleration. I can't quite recall the idea's specifics. It did pass the "sounds shady" test for suitable Df.

Shady deal for shady customers. The contract is fairly simple. 'It's my car. I'll let you use and drive X miles/ week it until you give me 60 payments of $Y, then I'll give it to you. Mess with my equipment or miss a payment and I won't let you use it anymore, and keep any money that you paid me.'

I was in the auto repair business for a short while and had to deal with week-to-week folks like this routinely, including employees. One of these guys would routinely get paid on a Friday then have no money for lunch the next Thursday. They spend every penny that they make as soon as possible. These folks have bad credit because they have no integrity. To 'lend" them money means that you gave it to them.
 
The last car I bought was a new Grand Cherokee Overland for $45k. My down payment was a trade-in worth $15k, so I took a loan through the dealer for $30k at a 4.5% interest rate. A month later my credit union was advertising car loans at 2% for up to $20k, so I walked in with a $10k down payment check and applied. My credit rating is approaching 850 so I didn't even bother to take any paperwork with me.

The first thing they did was look up my credit score. "Wow" was what the guy said. Ths information came with my outstanding loans (two homes), my wife's car, and a handful of credit cards that we pay off every month.

Then he asked me about my income. My wife and I are both self-employed plus I own more than one business. It's complicated. I only had partial information with me and no paperwork but I went through the process as best as I could.

The guy had to call his manager and she came over and said that she was sorry, I didn't qualify for the loan. I'm like, "what? You just saw my 840 credit score." She said that my income did not cover my expenses. "Let me make a phone call". I called my accountant and had him fax over my last three years 1040s. Just the two pages each year, not the piles of attachments. Ten minutes later she cut me a check to bring to the other bank for payout.

Normally when I refinance a home they want all the attachments. My taxes are about 1/2" thick every year. Then they ask for my investment account information and all that crap until I tell them "That's enough from me, make the loan or I'm going to your competitor'.
 
Shady deal for shady customers. The contract is fairly simple. 'It's my car. I'll let you use and drive X miles/ week it until you give me 60 payments of $Y, then I'll give it to you. Mess with my equipment or miss a payment and I won't let you use it anymore, and keep any money that you paid me.'
That's pretty much how home loans are except structured differently. Default on a home loan, bank gets the house back and keeps all payments. But I wouldn't want to have to deal with shady customers. They can be scary.
I was in the auto repair business for a short while and had to deal with week-to-week folks like this routinely, including employees. One of these guys would routinely get paid on a Friday then have no money for lunch the next Thursday. They spend every penny that they make as soon as possible. These folks have bad credit because they have no integrity.
I deal with this all the time and am constantly on the lookout for it. There's one racial group in particular (not black to appease the race hustlers out there) that is amazingly predictable about trying to get over on me. And if we make a mistake in collecting up front and have to send them a bill , it's probably close to 100% of the time, if not outright 100%, they end up in collections.
To 'lend" them money means that you gave it to them.
 
Impressive. I'm 771, clean as a whistle. I pay the entire balance every month and have zero debt.

The trick to getting "over the top" is to pay your credit card bills within a day or two of receiving them. This costs you next to nothing but they notice that as a huge positive, and CC companies are the first to report negatives or positives to the reporting agencies.
 
Run your business better, mr. lender. I have no sympathy for you. Every business has to watch out for customers who don't pay.
 
The trick to getting "over the top" is to pay your credit card bills within a day or two of receiving them. This costs you next to nothing but they notice that as a huge positive, and CC companies are the first to report negatives or positives to the reporting agencies.

I had such crappy credit scores after 15 years of no credit activity that I was forced to use a secured credit card. I usually have to pay the damn thing off twice a month so it's still useful for purchasing. I use it for business purchases so I quickly reach the limit of 3K every month. I''m hoping this looks good for my credit scores, but I wonder if the credit people would rather see me carry a balance for some time instead of constantly paying it off. Do you know what creditors prefer?
 
The trick to getting "over the top" is to pay your credit card bills within a day or two of receiving them. This costs you next to nothing but they notice that as a huge positive, and CC companies are the first to report negatives or positives to the reporting agencies.

what is happening is that the credit companies report whatever is on your statement. Say you have a credit limit of 10000 you pay of every month. You pay in full but you also use 9000-10000 every month. On your statement it will always show a high utilization which means a lower credit score. If you know when your closing date is (statement printing date) you can pay before that to make sure your preferred balance shows.
 
I had such crappy credit scores after 15 years of no credit activity that I was forced to use a secured credit card. I usually have to pay the damn thing off twice a month so it's still useful for purchasing. I use it for business purchases so I quickly reach the limit of 3K every month. I''m hoping this looks good for my credit scores, but I wonder if the credit people would rather see me carry a balance for some time instead of constantly paying it off. Do you know what creditors prefer?

sad : )

Its hard to say though. Your question is one everyone asks. What I always say is that people have different credit portfolios so you should use simulation apps like credit karma or credit wise to see what the impact of having a balance carried over is and having 0 balance is. Remember the only thing that matters is wht shows on your statement.
 
Quite a few unfortunately. Mostly that whole "keeping up with Jone's" thing. Foolish.
I think it has something to do with spirituality or a mindset.
I read Tao, Buddhism is very similar. They both teach that happiness can only be found within, not by wealth or material possessions. In fact Tao teaches that striving for material possessions in the hope of achieving happiness will always lead to more unhappiness. That's common sense too.
I have a colleague/friend (who earns about what I do) who lives in a McMansion with a stunning view overlooking Cook Inlet, his house inside looks like a museum . He and his wife always have a new expensive car, leased of course. And he's in serious financial trouble. Can't even pay his income taxes from '16 nor his 1st quarter income tax.
Of course I'm sure he looks down on me somewhat for driving an '06 Ford Focus but back to the Tao - I couldn't care less.
 
I think it has something to do with spirituality or a mindset.
I read Tao, Buddhism is very similar. They both teach that happiness can only be found within, not by wealth or material possessions. In fact Tao teaches that striving for material possessions in the hope of achieving happiness will always lead to more unhappiness. That's common sense too.
I have a colleague/friend (who earns about what I do) who lives in a McMansion with a stunning view overlooking Cook Inlet, his house inside looks like a museum . He and his wife always have a new expensive car, leased of course. And he's in serious financial trouble. Can't even pay his income taxes from '16 nor his 1st quarter income tax.
Of course I'm sure he looks down on me somewhat for driving an '06 Ford Focus but back to the Tao - I couldn't care less.

You Sir are someone to be looked up at.
 
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