Arizona's Next Immigration Target: Children of Illegals

Actually, I was too dismissive of the quote. Now that I look at it more closely, your reading is in error.

This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

This obviously means that the children of ambassadors are not citizens. Howard is right. No wonder he said obviously. See that's what you get for taking the word of people with an axe to grind. I thought, maybe, Howard actually meant what they claimed. Nope.
 
Why else would it say, "who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers."

There you go USFreedumb. I am embarrassed that I missed that.
 
Why else would it say, "who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers."

There you go USFreedumb. I am embarrassed that I missed that.

RS; you have completely lost all powers of reasoning, in your pathetic attempt to rescue what remains of your integrity.

The gist of our entire exchange was about this comment you made:
"It's one thing to deny the children of parents who enter illegally, but to deny the children of parents who have a legal right to be here, that is extremely unjust."

I told you that this was never part of what was being considered and you've had a hissy fit, ever since.

Where you think that what you're now presenting had anything to do with our exchange, is beyond me.

Please check yourself into a center where you can recieve some intense help for your obvious lack of self esteem; because you have set the bar for self-embarassment so high, that I doubt anyone else will ever achieve the level of stupidity that you have reached. :palm:
 
RS; you have completely lost all powers of reasoning, in your pathetic attempt to rescue what remains of your integrity.

The gist of our entire exchange was about this comment you made:
"It's one thing to deny the children of parents who enter illegally, but to deny the children of parents who have a legal right to be here, that is extremely unjust."

I told you that this was never part of what was being considered and you've had a hissy fit, ever since.

Where you think that what you're now presenting had anything to do with our exchange, is beyond me.

Please check yourself into a center where you can recieve some intense help for your obvious lack of self esteem; because you have set the bar for self-embarassment so high, that I doubt anyone else will ever achieve the level of stupidity that you have reached. :palm:

Please, I am more interested in the actual issue than your nonsense. If you want to throw in some jabs with actual debate on the issue then, be my guest.

I simply made a point that I was embarrassed that I had missed the obvious meaning of Howard's statement, due to the misrepresentation of it. Really, it's not much different than my giving too much credit to the TIME article (though I don't know if the author of that had an axe to grind or not and I had not misread what he wrote). I gave too much credit to the veracity of what was presented and, in this case, the presenter (not really ID but the anti-immigration forces she got the quote from).

But, in this case, I clearly should have known better. In the first, again, TIME is usually a reputable source and Pearce is a bit extreme, so it did not dawn on me that the author was in error. I have already stated that it probably should have, since that would have been a bit extreme, but as noted Pearce is extreme. Sorry, it was just not that unreasonable to assume the author was correct, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

You did not say the article was wrong. You attacked me and claimed there was nothing to suggest my comments (post #5), when there obviously was. You are nothing but a fucking liar. If you had simply said the article was wrong then the discussion would have went in a totally different direction. I would have went out and looked for another source and concluded the author was in error, as I did anyway. But, no... you wanted to try and make me responsible for the error in the article and then claimed to read a bill that does not yet exist.

That's your fuck up and your embarrassment, not mine.
 
1) You have not proven this.
2) It does not matter.

You have not shown anything but one quote, without context, that you probably got from some anti-immigration site. I am not sure it is even accurate as I can't seem to find it on anything other than anti-immigration sites. I would want to see the full context, though, even if it is accurate.

I have already posted some of the debate from a credible source that counters your claim. See post #53. It was stated clearly and agreed, in debate, that this sentence would make the children of aliens citizens.

It does not matter what Howard intended because his intent was not at all clear to those voting for the amendment's passage, many of which were not part of any congressional debate. Their intent (which we can only assume by what the 14th says and what that meant at the time) is superior to Howard's. Howard could have claimed his intent was to have all aliens rounded up and shot... would you then argue that that is what we should do? I hope not, because the voters could not have known that was his intent and we can not assume they would have voted for it if they had.

If Howard intended something different he should have been more careful in his framing. As it is written we can only assume that "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" meant what it had for ages, set forth in the common law, and since in every other use, including the reference to jurisdiction in the last sentence of the 14th.

Again, it does not matter. Laws that were passed later cannot change the meaning or impact of the 14th. The 14th contains nothing excluding the children of aliens whether they were legal or not. According to the 14th, those born here and subject to the jurisdiction of our laws are citizens. Nothing can change that, except another amendment.

I have searched. I can't find the quote in context anywhere on the numerous anti immigration sites that reference it. If you have a thorough source then you can provide it. Otherwise, I am left to assume that you simply accepted what you were told by those who share your end goals.

The SC in the Wong Kim Ark case had good access to that information and they did not find it compelling. Well, they could not have, because it is inadmissible, but they did not seem to think that was the intent, made clear, in debate. Sorry, but I find them to be a more reputable source than the anti-immigration forces.

I have not proven what? That the 14th was written prior to illegal immigration laws?

The quote is accurate and "no context" is a silly hair split. The quotes you posted have no "context" other than they were all part of the same debates over the 14th just like the one I provided...The authors intent IS relevent no matter how much you you wish it were not...interpretation always looks at intent. Howard did not consider the class "illegal alien" because they did not exist...he did make clear however that babies of foreigners were not afforded the rights provided by the 14th...so again, what is an illegal alien if not a foreigner?

Wong Kim Ark was born in the US by parents who were here legally to work. Again, his birth pre-dated illegal immigration law including the laws that were passed after the 14th that were against Chinese workers.

The relevency to the discussion centers around "can the 14th be revisted in order to amend/redefine it to deal specifically with anchor babies of "illegal" immigrants, since they are a class that did not exist when the 14th was written? I say yes.
 
Please, I am more interested in the actual issue than your nonsense. If you want to throw in some jabs with actual debate on the issue then, be my guest.

I simply made a point that I was embarrassed that I had missed the obvious meaning of Howard's statement, due to the misrepresentation of it. Really, it's not much different than my giving too much credit to the TIME article (though I don't know if the author of that had an axe to grind or not and I had not misread what he wrote). I gave too much credit to the veracity of what was presented and, in this case, the presenter (not really ID but the anti-immigration forces she got the quote from).

But, in this case, I clearly should have known better. In the first, again, TIME is usually a reputable source and Pearce is a bit extreme, so it did not dawn on me that the author was in error. I have already stated that it probably should have, since that would have been a bit extreme, but as noted Pearce is extreme. Sorry, it was just not that unreasonable to assume the author was correct, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

You did not say the article was wrong. You attacked me and claimed there was nothing to suggest my comments (post #5), when there obviously was. You are nothing but a fucking liar. If you had simply said the article was wrong then the discussion would have went in a totally different direction. I would have went out and looked for another source and concluded the author was in error, as I did anyway. But, no... you wanted to try and make me responsible for the error in the article and then claimed to read a bill that does not yet exist.

That's your fuck up and your embarrassment, not mine.

You are amusing; because you whine about me throwing in "jabs" and you've done nothing but throw in "jabs" throughout this entire exchange.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Now along with your pitiful cognitive abillities, you are also suffering from memory recall.

At the following address, you made the following comment (post #3):
We should give Arizona back to Mexico. We can rid ourselves of their attempts to circumvent the constitution and Arpaio, while fixing their immigration problem, all at once.

It's one thing to deny the children of parents who enter illegally, but to deny the children of parents who have a legal right to be here, that is extremely unjust.

Will these children have a right to be anywhere? That is, will they be citizens in their parents homeland? What if they have parents of different nationalities?

The right wingers in Arizona are making it quite obvious that they oppose immigration, not just illegal immigration.

To which I replied (post #5):
And you continue to make it obvious that you're an idiot.

No where was it suggested to deny citizenship to babies born of parents who are here legally.

You are so far into your "rant-du-jour", that the minute you see the word illegal you just go off on any tangent that fills that empty little cranium of yours.

You need to be assigned a caretaker, before you harm yourself or someone else.

By the way, this proposal will be shot down and found to be unconstitutional

What the fuck do you think was meant by the comment of:
"No where was it suggested to deny citizenship to babies born of parents who are here legally."

The liar in the entire exchange has been you and since you made yourself look foolish, it's obvioius that you are just hoping to find a "gotcha moment" so that you can hope to regain some of your destroyed ego.

You could have avoided all of your embarassemnt, by just admitting you fucked up and letting it go; but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, your hypocrisy wouldn't allow you to admit it.

Please retain what little bit of dignity you have left and make no further posts regarding this subject.
I'm really feeling bad, about helping you to self-destruct. :good4u:
 
I have not proven what? That the 14th was written prior to illegal immigration laws?

The quote is accurate and "no context" is a silly hair split. The quotes you posted have no "context" other than they were all part of the same debates over the 14th just like the one I provided...

You have not proven that Howard's intent was to exclude the children of immigrants. Now that I've looked at the quote more carefully, it is clear that he did not. All that quote says is that a child born to an ambassador in the US is not a citizen.

The quotes I posted did have context. They were exchanges, points and counterpoints.

The authors intent IS relevent no matter how much you you wish it were not...interpretation always looks at intent. Howard did not consider the class "illegal alien" because they did not exist...he did make clear however that babies of foreigners were not afforded the rights provided by the 14th...so again, what is an illegal alien if not a foreigner?

If it is not made clear in the framing or if his intent is counter to the language, it is not relevant. The voters must understand his intent. According to the language of the 14th anyone born here that is subject to our laws is a citizen. That excluded the children of Indians, diplomats and foreign soldiers.

However, from the quote you provided that is in keeping with Howard's intent.

Wong Kim Ark was born in the US by parents who were here legally to work. Again, his birth pre-dated illegal immigration law including the laws that were passed after the 14th that were against Chinese workers.

Wong Kim Ark would have been a citizen if born in the US after the Chinese Exclusion Act. Nothing in the ruling indicates that that is conditional upon his parents legal status.

The relevency to the discussion centers around "can the 14th be revisted in order to amend/redefine it to deal specifically with anchor babies of "illegal" immigrants, since they are a class that did not exist when the 14th was written? I say yes.

And you are wrong. Again, your argument is not different than the gun grabbers who claim that technological changes in guns makes the second amendment irrelevant to them.
 
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You are amusing; because you whine about me throwing in "jabs" and you've done nothing but throw in "jabs" throughout this entire exchange.

You are dense. I invited you to make your stupid comments, rehashing post #3 and your attempts to blame me for the error in the article, WITH some discussion of that actual issue. If all you are going to do is continue to whine about me making a comment on the article then it is unwelcome.

I don't care anymore. You re an idiot, you have had a 100 post to try to make me responsible for the article and you have failed. Time to move on.

What the fuck do you think was meant by the comment of:
"No where was it suggested to deny citizenship to babies born of parents who are here legally."

Just that. That nowhere was it suggested. It was suggested in the article to which I was commenting, dumbfuck.

The rest is just more of your bullshit that does not address the actual issue and instead is a personal attack on me for commenting on an errant article, which is what you have done throughout.

The article was in error and my comments were based upon the article. I have acknowledged that the article is in error. Therefore, my comments are withdrawn and made irrelevant. Now move on, dumbfuck. We've been over this a 100 times and you are still too stupid to get it.
 
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You have not proven that Howard to exclude the children of immigrants. Now that I've looked at the quote more carefully, it is clear that he did not. All that quote says is that a child born to an ambassador in the US is not a citizen.

The quotes I posted did have context. They were exchanges, points and counterpoints.

If it is not made clear in the framing or if his intent is counter to the language, it is not relevant. The voters must understand his intent. According to the language of the 14th anyone born here that is subject to our laws is a citizen. That excluded the children Indians, diplomats and foreign soldiers.

However, from the quote you provided that is in keeping with Howard's intent.

Wong Kim Ark would have been a citizen if born in the US after the Chinese Exclusion Act. Nothing in the ruling indicates that that is conditional upon his parents legal status.

And you are wrong. Again, your argument is not different than the gun grabbers who claim that technological changes in guns makes the second amendment irrelevant to them.

The quote
"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”

Where the commas are placed seperates the classes of persons Howard addressed. They are 4-foreigners; aliens; families of ambassadors; foreign ministers.

Illegal immigrants were not even a "class" at the time of the 14th; though as I have said and many others as well, including legal experts, the foreigner and alien class is certainly an appropriate application to an illegal alien.

The quote has the exact same context as the others you posted hair splitter...the debates on the House Floor about the 14th! The only difference is that you liked your quotes and until you forced your interpretation onto Howards you didn't like his.

I am confident that you are wrong and at some point the 14th WILL be revisited.
 
You are dense. I invited you to make your stupid comments, rehashing post #3 and your attempts to blame me for the error in the article, WITH some discussion of that actual issue. If all you are going to do is continue to whine about me making a comment on the article then it is unwelcome.

I don't care anymore. You re an idiot, you have had a 100 post to try to make me responsible for the article and you have failed. Time to move on.



Just that. That nowhere was it suggested. It was suggested in the article to which I was commenting, dumbfuck.

The rest is just more of your bullshit that does not address the actual issue and instead is a personal attack on me for commenting on an errant article, which is what you have done throughout.

The article was in error and my comments were based upon the article. I have acknowledged that the article is in error. Therefore, my comments are withdrawn and made irrelevant. Now move on, dumbfuck. We've been over this a 100 times and you are still too stupid to get it.

I see that your only capable of making insults; but then someone that's had their ass handed to them, repeatedly on this thread, probably has nothing left anyway.

You made your comment; because you thought you had information that you could use to try and promote more of your pro-every gets to immigrate agenda and then when you realized that you fucked up, you started backpedaling and trying to find a gotcha moment so you could feel better.

It's obvious that you have very little self control; because you said, many threads ago, that you were done and yet, here you are still trying to defend your stupidity.

You will notice that at no time have I referred to you as RDumbfuck, RShithead, or any other variance of our monkiker; but you, on the other hand, have repeatedly done so.
This is evidence that your cognitive and reasoning skills are just slightly above those of a 3 year old and that you are unable to admit that you're an idiot.

Now I've left you an opening, where you can say that your 3 year old abilities are still above mine; so go ahead and take your shot and hopefully this time you will actually hold true to your "last time" comment.

In parting; since you admitted to being a "stubborn motherfucker", I was curious about something.
How long was your mother stubborn?? :good4u:
 
The quote
"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”

Where the commas are placed seperates the classes of persons Howard addressed. They are 4-foreigners; aliens; families of ambassadors; foreign ministers.

No it does not. It means foreigners/aliens who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers.

If it meant what you claimed it would be

"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who belong to foreigners, aliens, ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons."

Your meaning would assume that Howard had no ability to construct a sentence and was ignorant of the fact that he had not expressed such meaning in the first sentence or that it conflicted with the meaning of an almost identical phrasing in the last sentence of the 14th.

This is why the "of course" now makes sense, when it did not before. Your meaning would not have been obvious as it would have gone against the common law that had existed for a very long time and throughout the US's history for white people.

This is, also, probably why you cannot find it in context on the anti-immigration sites, because they are trying to hide it's true meaning.

Illegal immigrants were not even a "class" at the time of the 14th; though as I have said and many others as well, including legal experts, the foreigner and alien class is certainly an appropriate application to an illegal alien.

DOES NOT MATTER. The laws passed after the 14th cannot change the meaning or impact of the 14th anymore than a law making certain forms of speech illegal can change the meaning of the first amendment.

The quote has the exact same context as the others you posted hair splitter...the debates on the House Floor about the 14th! The only difference is that you liked your quotes and until you forced your interpretation onto Howards you didn't like his.

That is totally absurd. Your statement has no context. The ones I posted are points and counterpoints which add clarity to the meaning of each individuals comments.

I did not understand Howard's quote as it seemed to conflict with other debate on the floor and the language in the first and last sentence of the 14th. After more careful reading it does not.

Context of it all together has added clarity to Howard's comments. The anti-immigration forces are full of shit which is why they avoid context that contradicts what they want Howard's statement to mean. It's a totally dishonest tactic, but used often.
 
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Anchor babies and the 14th Amendment
The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads in part:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside."

Babies born to illegal alien mothers within U.S. borders are called anchor babies because under the 1965 immigration Act, they act as an anchor that pulls the illegal alien mother and eventually a host of other relatives into permanent U.S. residency. (Jackpot babies is another term).

Post-Civil War reforms focused on injustices to African Americans. The 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 to protect the rights of native-born Black Americans, whose rights were being denied as recently-freed slaves. It was written in a manner so as to prevent state governments from ever denying citizenship to blacks born in the United States. But in 1868, the United States had no formal immigration policy, and the authors therefore saw no need to address immigration explicitly in the amendment.

In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by writing:

"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."

The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was intended to exclude American-born persons from automatic citizenship whose allegiance to the United States was not complete. With illegal aliens who are unlawfully in the United States, their native country has a claim of allegiance on the child. Thus, the completeness of their allegiance to the United States is impaired, which therefore precludes automatic citizenship.

The correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment is that an illegal alien mother is subject to the jurisdiction of her native country, as is her baby.

Over a century ago, the Supreme Court correctly confirmed this restricted interpretation of citizenship in the so-called 'Slaughter-House cases' [83 US 36 (1873)] and in [112 US 94 (1884)]. In Elk v.Wilkins, the phrase 'subject to its jurisdiction' excluded from its operation 'children of ministers, consuls, and citizens of foreign states born within the United States.' In Elk, the American Indian claimant was considered not an American citizen because the law required him to be 'not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.'

Congress subsequently passed a special act to grant full citizenship to American Indians, who were not citizens even through they were born within the borders of the United States. The Citizens Act of 1924, codified in 8USCSß1401, provides that:

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;
(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe.

The original intent of the 14th Amendment was clearly not to facilitate illegal aliens defying U.S. law and obtaining citizenship for their offspring, nor obtaining benefits at taxpayer expense. Current estimates indicate there may be over 300,000 anchor babies born each year in the U.S., thus causing illegal alien mothers to add more to the U.S. population each year than immigration from all sources in an average year before 1965.

American citizens must be wary of elected politicians voting to illegally extend our generous social benefits to illegal aliens and other criminals.



For more information, see:

The UnConstitutionality of Citizenship by Birth to Non-Americans, by P.A. Madison, Former Research Fellow in Constitutional Studies, February 1, 2005

Illegal Aliens and American Medicine, by Madeleine Pelner Cosman, Ph.D., Esq., The Journal of the American Physicians and Surgeons, Volume 10 Number 1 - Spring 2005

Track 'anchor babies', by Al Knight, Denver Post, September 11, 2002.

Change U.S. law on anchor babies, by Al Knight, Denver Post, June 22, 2005.

The Mexican Fifth Column by Tom DeWeese, January 27, 2003.
Anchor Babies: The Children of Illegal Aliens, by the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

The Outrages of the Mexican Invasion, by Tom DeWeese, American policy Center.

Alien Birthright Citizenship: A Fable That Lives Through Ignorance, by P.A. Madison, The Federalist Blog, December 17, 2005.

Born in the U.S.A.? Rethinking Birthright Citizenship in the Wake of 9/11 - Testimony of Dr. John C. Eastman, Professor of Law, Chapman University School of Law, Director, The Claremont Institute Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence, Oversight Hearing on “Dual Citizenship, Birthright Citizenship, and the Meaning of Sovereignty” - U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims
 
Actually, I was too dismissive of the quote. Now that I look at it more closely, your reading is in error.

This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.

This obviously means that the children of ambassadors are not citizens. Howard is right. No wonder he said obviously. See that's what you get for taking the word of people with an axe to grind. I thought, maybe, Howard actually meant what they claimed. Nope.
That's why, if they want to stop that practice, they could change their status to "Undocumented Diplomat" from whatever nation they come, in this way they get to go back home, and their children would not receive automatic citizenship...

It wouldn't be all that hard, and the SCOTUS has made it clear that the Congress has sole discretion on nationalization and citizenship laws, this would be within the purview of the Congress.
 
This article adds nothing new and contains many inaccurate points.

1) The 14th and the civil right bill that preceded it was not intended to apply only to blacks.

From the debates on the civil rights act of 1866.

During the debates in the Senate in January and February, 1866, upon the Civil Rights Bill, Mr. Trumbull, the chairman of the committee which reported the bill, moved to amend the first sentence thereof so as to read,


All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States, without distinction of color.

Mr. Cowan, of Pennsylvania, asked, "Whether it will not have the effect of naturalizing the children of Chinese and Gypsies born in this country?" Mr. Trumbull answered, "Undoubtedly," and asked, "is not the child born in this country of German parents a citizen?" Mr. Cowan replied, "The children of German parents are citizens; but Germans are not Chinese." Mr. Trumbull rejoined: "The law makes no such distinction, and the child of an Asiatic is just as much a citizen as the child of a European." Mr. Reverdy Johnson suggested that the words, "without distinction of color," should be omitted as unnecessary, and said:

The amendment, as it stands, is that all persons born in the United States, and not subject to a foreign power, shall, by virtue of birth, be citizens. To that I am willing to consent, [p698] and that comprehends all persons, without any reference to race or color, who may be so born.

And Mr. Trumbull agreed that striking out those words would make no difference in the meaning, but thought it better that they should be retained to remove all possible doubt. Congressional Globe, 39th Congress, 1st sess. pt. 1, pp. 498, 573, 574.

2) Howard's comment did not mean what is claimed as I have already argued.
3) The Slaughter-House cases reference to citizenship was obiter dicta, not relevant to the decision and therefore has no relevance as was point out in the Wong Kim Ark case.
4) Elk vs Wilkins was about American Indians who were not subject to the jurisdiction of our laws per the sovereign. That is, we said they are not subject to our laws and did not tax or try them for actions that took place on the reservation which was considered a separate state though within the US.
5) An illegal immigrant is subject to our jurisdiction so long as they are in the US. If they commit or are the victim of a crime the case will be tried in US courts. Mexico has no jurisdiction.

Subject to the jurisdiction thereof is completely within the common law and US customs of the time. It excludes the the children of ambassadors and foreign soldiers occupying (and therefore assuming jurisdiction) parts of the US.

The only unique thing about America's experience is the native Americans who we allowed to assume jurisdiction on their reservations.

The exceptions of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" do not include immigrants, legal or otherwise. It had never excluded them (so long as they were white which was corrected by the 14th) and does not in the last sentence of the 14th.

Your source is full of shit and misrepresenting history in order to advance their own agenda. The article is nothing more than dishonest propaganda.
 
If illegal immigrants are not subject to our jurisdiction then we have no power to try them for illegal immigration. All we could possibly do is extradite them to their homeland and let whoever has jurisdiction over them deal with them as they see fit, including setting them free to cross our border again. They are subject to our jurisdiction and punishment for violation of our laws. Any child they have while here is subject to our jurisdiction and therefore a citizen.
 
If illegal immigrants are not subject to our jurisdiction then we have no power to try them for illegal immigration. All we could possibly do is extradite them to their homeland and let whoever has jurisdiction over them deal with them as they see fit, including setting them free to cross our border again. They are subject to our jurisdiction and punishment for violation of our laws. Any child they have while here is subject to our jurisdiction and therefore a citizen.
That would be incorrect, so were Native Americans subject to the US jurisdiction, yet they too were excluded. It wouldn't be that difficult to make the change that would count them as Undocumented and Illegal Diplomats rather than "immigrants"...

There is nothing at all "Just" in allowing people to have free reign simply because of proximity while other people who try to properly immigrate from places less closely situated are treated to a heaping cup of disappointment and red tape.
 
That would be incorrect, so were Native Americans subject to the US jurisdiction, yet they too were excluded. It wouldn't be that difficult to make the change that would count them as Undocumented and Illegal Diplomats rather than "immigrants"...

There is nothing at all "Just" in allowing people to have free reign simply because of proximity while other people who try to properly immigrate from places less closely situated are treated to a heaping cup of disappointment and red tape.

If someone, not related to RS, would go into labor and have their child in his house, would that mean that he's responsible for the child?? :good4u:
 
That would be incorrect, so were Native Americans subject to the US jurisdiction, yet they too were excluded. It wouldn't be that difficult to make the change that would count them as Undocumented and Illegal Diplomats rather than "immigrants"...

They were not subject to our jurisdiction within their tribe and were treated differently while acting outside of it because we surround them. The laws and customs of the US treated them differently before and after the 14th. We did not treat the children of white immigrants differently.

The 14th excludes Native Americans explicitly in other sections, referencing jurisdiction, i.e., not taxed, and the it's precursor the civil rights act of 1866 treated them differently due to the same point on jurisdiction.

All of that was changed via Congressional power over naturalization. But congress has no power to strip citizenship, except for treason.

Children of immigrants born here were always assumed to be citizens, if they were white. All the 14th did was remove the, if they were white, exception.

There is nothing at all "Just" in allowing people to have free reign simply because of proximity while other people who try to properly immigrate from places less closely situated are treated to a heaping cup of disappointment and red tape.

There is no different treatment due to proximity. They simply have less distance to travel. That is not due to our actions.

From Elk vs Wilkins which was promptly made irrelevant and btw Elk was born on the reservation...

The law upon the question before us has been well stated by Judge DEADY in the district court of the United States for the district of Oregon. In giving judgment against the plaintiff in a case resembling the case at bar, he said: 'Being born a member of 'an independent political community'-the Chinook-he was not born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States-not born in its allegiance.' McKay v. Campbell, 2 Sawy. 118, 134. And in a later case he said: 'But an Indian cannot make himself a citizen of the United States without the consent and co-operation of the government. The fact that he has abandoned his nomadic life or tribal relations, and adopted the habits and manners of civilized people, may be a good reason why he should be made a citizen of the United States, but does not of itself make him one. To be a citizen of the United States is a political privilege which no one, not born to, can assume without its consent in some form. The Indians in Oregon, not being born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, were not born citizens thereof, and I am not aware of any law or treaty by which any of them have been made so since.' U. S. v. Osborne, 6 Sawy. 406, 409. Upon the question whether any action of a state can confer rights of citizenship on Indians of a tribe still recognized by the United States as retaining its tribal existence, we need not, and do not, express an opinion, because the state of Nebraska is not shown to have taken any action affecting the condition of this plaintiff. See Chirac v. Chirac, 2 Wheat. 259; Fellows v. Blacksmith, 19 How. 366; U. S. v. Holliday, 3 Wall. 407, 420; U. S. v. Joseph, 94 U.S. 614 , 618. The plaintiff, not being a citizen of the United States under the fourteenth amendment of the constitution, has been deprived of no right secured by the fifteenth amendment, and cannot maintain this action. Judgment affirmed. [112 U.S. 94, 110]
 
If someone, not related to RS, would go into labor and have their child in his house, would that mean that he's responsible for the child??

???

Relevance? No, and never has that been the case. Again, children of white immigrants were ALWAYS natural-born citizens. the 14th removed the racial component. It was not intended to change the meaning of natural born citizen.
 
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