Are religious organizations constitutionally exempt from taxation

Are religious organizations constitutionally exempt from taxation?


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the Supreme Court has in fact ruled that religious organizations are protected against taxation by the constitution.....it specifically says so in the first link Evince listed in the thread....

Where? Please cite it.

I saw a citation that stated "Many years later, the Court, in upholding the constitutionality of the tax exemption for religious organizations, observed that “[t]he State has an affirmative policy that considers these groups as beneficial and stabilizing influences in community life and finds this classification [tax exemption] useful, desirable, and in the public interest.”

Are you saying that finding the practice of extending tax exemptions for religious organizations constititutional is the same as establishing a First Amendment right to tax-exempt status to religious organizations?
 
No, Dixie never said that is the only thing "free" can ever mean in any usage, Dixie gave you 36 various definitions of the word, and correctly informed your stubbornly ignorant ass, that any of those definitions could apply, depending on how the word is used. YOU have insisted that Dixie said something outrageous and absurd, because you are a lying dishonest fucktarded piece of dog shit, who can't open his mouth without lies spilling out. ...But I digress.

Mr. Madison's recorded writings don't mention his endorsement of your claim that the Establishment Clause exempts churches from all taxation:

"An August 15, 1789 entry in Madison’s papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: “Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience..."

Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:10commandmentsAustinMN.JPG" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/10commandmentsAustinMN.JPG/220px-10commandmentsAustinMN.JPG"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/0/02/10commandmentsAustinMN.JPG/220px-10commandmentsAustinMN.JPG
 
Where? Please cite it.

I saw a citation that stated "Many years later, the Court, in upholding the constitutionality of the tax exemption for religious organizations, observed that “[t]he State has an affirmative policy that considers these groups as beneficial and stabilizing influences in community life and finds this classification [tax exemption] useful, desirable, and in the public interest.”

Are you saying that finding the practice of extending tax exemptions for religious organizations constititutional is the same as establishing a First Amendment right to tax-exempt status to religious organizations?

I'm saying "upholding the constitutionality" ought to have been a clue you picked up on.......the rest of the discussion is meaningless....
 
Here is the thing:
The Constitution does not SPECIFICALLY prohibit placing a tax on religious organizations. (The idea that "free exercise thereof" means no taxes because a tax would be a government induced burden on churches is, IMO, a bit too much of a stretch to work.) However, you will find that the practical application of a tax on religious organizations is impossible without violating the Constitution.

For instance, let's say we tax contributions to religious organizations. Do we tax them at the same rate, or on a progressive scale? Well, we can't tax them on a progressive scale, as that would be placing a heavier burden on larger churches over smaller churches, or larger, more established religions over smaller ones. Sorry, we cannot do that - it would violate the principle of not favoring one religion over another simply because we feel the larger religions are "able to pay more".

So, do we place a flat tax? But what does that do to the small, poor churches who are already struggling to keep their doors open? Well, since we cannot favor one church over another, too bad. Except then the government ends up in the position of shutting churches down as the law of unintended consequences shows its ugly face. So flat tax doesn't work either. Flat tax with a standard deduction - well maybe, except that no matter where we place that deduction, it will still end up harming those borderline churches which are not quite poor enough fall under the standard deduction, but not wealthy enough to pay without having to make cuts in their other expenditures - expenditures which government has ZERO authority is telling them "Well, you don't really NEED that to worship." Flat tax with a variable deduction? Nope - we cannot favor one church over another, no matter WHAT the justification.

The bottom line is there is no way to structure a tax on churches that will not, effectively or directly, end up favoring certain churches over others. Of course, that is a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

Then we come to the problem of enforcing a tax on religious institutions. What does the government do if a church falls behind in their tax burden? Or, from another possible (probable!) angle, what does government do with a church that refuses to pay? Does government shut the church down and confiscate church property to satisfy the debt? Yea, THAT will fly well. Do they send in law enforcement to forcibly remove offerings until the debt is settled? Sorry, I don't think that one will work, either.

The end result is that while the Constitution does not specify that religious organizations cannot be taxed, the reality is that it effectively does so due to the impossible nature of designing and enforcing a tax structure that will not violate those direct provisions in the Constitution which protect religion from government interference.
 
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I'm saying "upholding the constitutionality" ought to have been a clue you picked up on.......the rest of the discussion is meaningless....
I think his point is that while exempting churches from taxes is Constitutional, (ie: does not violate the prohibition of establishing religion), tax exemptions are not declared to be Constitutionally mandatory in that ruling.
 
Mr. Madison's recorded writings don't mention his endorsement of your claim that the Establishment Clause exempts churches from all taxation:

"An August 15, 1789 entry in Madison’s papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: “Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience..."

Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem with this argument is the establishment clause is not where the claimed prohibition on taxation is supposedly found. It is supposedly found in the following clause that prohibits government from interfering with the free exercise of religion.
 
No, Dixie never said that is the only thing "free" can ever mean in any usage, Dixie gave you 36 various definitions of the word, and correctly informed your stubbornly ignorant ass, that any of those definitions could apply, depending on how the word is used. YOU have insisted that Dixie said something outrageous and absurd, because you are a lying dishonest fucktarded piece of dog shit, who can't open his mouth without lies spilling out. ...But I digress.

So, which of the 36 meanings do you deem appropriate for the use of the word "free" in the Second Amendment"?

Keeping in mind that you also appear to have said this:

...The word "free" in the constitution, means just what it says, and when we go down this PC road of redefining what words mean, this is a prime example of why that is insane.
 
The problem with this argument is the establishment clause is not where the claimed prohibition on taxation is supposedly found. It is supposedly found in the following clause that prohibits government from interfering with the free exercise of religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The problem with your argument, from my point of view, is that the Free Exercise language is not normally interpreted to mean "churches shall pay no taxes". Is it?
 
I'm saying "upholding the constitutionality" ought to have been a clue you picked up on.......the rest of the discussion is meaningless....

Because you say it is?

Many actions have been upheld as constititutional during the history of the US.

Are you claiming that all those practices are now guaranteed constitutional rights?
 
Here is the thing:
The Constitution does not SPECIFICALLY prohibit placing a tax on religious organizations. (The idea that "free exercise thereof" means no taxes because a tax would be a government induced burden on churches is, IMO, a bit too much of a stretch to work.) However, you will find that the practical application of a tax on religious organizations is impossible without violating the Constitution.

For instance, let's say we tax contributions to religious organizations. Do we tax them at the same rate, or on a progressive scale? Well, we can't tax them on a progressive scale, as that would be placing a heavier burden on larger churches over smaller churches, or larger, more established religions over smaller ones. Sorry, we cannot do that - it would violate the principle of not favoring one religion over another simply because we feel the larger religions are "able to pay more".

So, do we place a flat tax? But what does that do to the small, poor churches who are already struggling to keep their doors open? Well, since we cannot favor one church over another, too bad. Except then the government ends up in the position of shutting churches down as the law of unintended consequences shows its ugly face. So flat tax doesn't work either. Flat tax with a standard deduction - well maybe, except that no matter where we place that deduction, it will still end up harming those borderline churches which are not quite poor enough fall under the standard deduction, but not wealthy enough to pay without having to make cuts in their other expenditures - expenditures which government has ZERO authority is telling them "Well, you don't really NEED that to worship." Flat tax with a variable deduction? Nope - we cannot favor one church over another, no matter WHAT the justification.

The bottom line is there is no way to structure a tax on churches that will not, effectively or directly, end up favoring certain churches over others. Of course, that is a direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

Then we come to the problem of enforcing a tax on religious institutions. What does the government do if a church falls behind in their tax burden? Or, from another possible (probable!) angle, what does government do with a church that refuses to pay? Does government shut the church down and confiscate church property to satisfy the debt? Yea, THAT will fly well. Do they send in law enforcement to forcibly remove offerings until the debt is settled? Sorry, I don't think that one will work, either.

The end result is that while the Constitution does not specify that religious organizations cannot be taxed, the reality is that it effectively does so due to the impossible nature of designing and enforcing a tax structure that will not violate those direct provisions in the Constitution which protect religion from government interference.

Bravo!
 
Mr. Madison's recorded writings don't mention his endorsement of your claim that the Establishment Clause exempts churches from all taxation:

"An August 15, 1789 entry in Madison’s papers indicates he intended for the establishment clause to prevent the government imposition of religious beliefs on individuals. The entry says: “Mr. Madison said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience..."

Separation of church and state in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The problem with this argument is the establishment clause is not where the claimed prohibition on taxation is supposedly found. It is supposedly found in the following clause that prohibits government from interfering with the free exercise of religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The problem with your argument, from my point of view, is that the Free Exercise language is not normally interpreted to mean "churches shall pay no taxes". Is it?
Not in my opinion. But it is in the opinion of others. (that is why I used the word "supposedly" - twice.)

I was pointing out you were using Madison's explanation of the establishment clause ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion") to refute what some people interpret to find in the free exercise clause.
 
Not in my opinion. But it is in the opinion of others. (that is why I used the word "supposedly" - twice.)

I was pointing out you were using Madison's explanation of the establishment clause ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion") to refute what some people interpret to find in the free exercise clause.

So how do you vote?

Is there a constitutional tax exemption for religious organizations, based on the Free Exercise clause?
 
So how do you vote?

Is there a constitutional tax exemption for religious organizations, based on the Free Exercise clause?
If you mean a MANDATORY exemption, not in my opinion - I thought I made that clear by now. It's a bit too much of a stretch. However, I do know, quite well, where the argument comes from for those who are of that opinion. (The constitutionality of exemptions is well established. But is it mandatory?)

Then again, is it possible SCOTUS rulings with respect to things like poll taxes could set the precedence that a tax or fee on ANY basic constitutionally enumerate right is unconstitutional? That theory has not, to my knowledge, been examined.
 
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If you mean a MANDATORY exemption, not in my opinion - I thought I made that clear by now. It's a bit too much of a stretch. However, I do know, quite well, where the argument comes from for those who are of that opinion. (The constitutionality of exemptions is well established. But is it mandatory?)

Then again, is it possible SCOTUS rulings with respect to things like poll taxes could set the precedence that a tax or fee on ANY basic constitutionally enumerate right is unconstitutional? That theory has not, to my knowledge, been examined.

Here is a link with some Free Exercise clause cases cited.

Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg" class="image" title="Great Seal of the United States"><img alt="Great Seal of the United States" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png
 
All cases having to do with states authority to enact laws which directly or indirectly affect the free practice of religion. Makes me wonder what the state's "compelling interest" is in the case of forbidding multiple marriages? Which in turn makes me wonder if the ruling supporting monogamy laws would have flown had the case come AFTER the establishment of the "compelling interest" yard stick.

(But that is a whole 'nuther can o' worms.)
 
Thing is you are not going to find a ruling on the idea that "free exercise" includes freedom from taxation unless someone actually tries to tax churches' donation revenues and/or property.

The ruling in CA's state sales tax case only addresses commercial enterprises of a church, not revenues derived from donations, nor property taxes since those were not imposed in the case.
 
Thing is you are not going to find a ruling on the idea that "free exercise" includes freedom from taxation unless someone actually tries to tax churches' donation revenues and/or property.

The ruling in CA's state sales tax case only addresses commercial enterprises of a church, not revenues derived from donations, nor property taxes since those were not imposed in the case.

Which seems to me to indicate that "Dixie's" take on the Free Exercise clause is fairly uncommon, and there seems to be no verifiable justification for it.
 
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