Another sanctimonious Christian who tells others how to live, busted being a pervert
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Rationalist
Hail Voltaire
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but according to every historical account (Islamic or otherwise), Aisha was 6 or 7 years old when Muhammad took her as his wife (betrothed, which was for all intents and purposes an engagement that couldn't be broken), and 9 years old when the marriage was consummated.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha's_A...escent_when_Muhammad_consummated_the_marriage
If you don't believe that, consider the fact that Aisha would play with toys while living with Muhammad. This would have been unacceptable for a girl who had reached puberty.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha's_Age_of_Consummation#Was_Muhammad_a_Pedophile.3F
Muhammad was a morally depraved man, a thug, and a pedophile.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to reason with some people. Mormons, Muslims, JWs, Seventh-day Adventists, and to some extent, even some Roman Catholics and Protestants -- they are all guilty of revising history to suit their view of the world, rather than allowing the facts to speak for themselves.
*sigh*
Topper lives there. The dude isn't renowned because nobody knows him, including the locals.
And many knew about Ted before he "sinned", he had weekly calls to the President and was on that movie that the Speaker's daughter made. His church had over 25,000 members and a larger population than my entire county. Dude was famous, that is renown. That one deserved that title, not some dude that people know as "that guy that protests in the French Quarter"...
The story said he was previously renowned, they either don't know what the word means or they exaggerated.
The dude was on youtube...so sigh all you wish! He was better known than what you claim and even though Ted was in a movie, not very many people knew him before his "fall"
Now they are both renowned for things they preached against!
Sorry, Damo, but this guy has bee making a lot of noise in NO for some time...
http://www.kxnet.com/getArticle.asp?s=rss&ArticleId=31531
http://www.kxnet.com/getArticle.asp?s=rss&ArticleId=31531
Which means zero, I'll bet you still have to look up his name. That isn't renown. Seriously, I don't know why you find it so important to make this guy more famous after the fact, but it points to a joyful participation in bias rather than reality.
When nobody knows you you are, you are not "renowned", you aren't even infamous, you are just the dude that protests on the French Quarter. Shoot, I know five kids on youtube, they are not "renowned".
Ted Haggard was the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003 to 2006 when he was outed by Mike, he called the President weekly and was the direct object of anger and derision from the left (see aforementioned movie) long before he was outed as a hypocrite and a homosexual. There is a whole huge level of difference, Haggard actually was renowned, this guy has just now had a light cast upon him and has already disappeared into obscurity. Nobody knew him, nobody will know him, and most people still don't even know he was arrested. We do, but we're not indicative of society.
evince
Truthmatters
Im sorry biut porn does not turn one into a child molester.
This guys problem insnt porn its sexualizing children.
At least this time he did not touch a child.
I will never condem someone for having these feelings.
I would condem them for acting on these feelings with children.
If you find yourself looking a children while surfing porn than you have just helped a child be harmed (the kid in the picture was harmed).
This idiot just admitted to another crime and they should check his computer and likely will.
Those who need to sexualize children have often been the victims of child molestation OR they had their sexuality stunted at a young age by some incident.
The human brain is pretty amazing and what you put in your brain should be thought about with a little care.
Nature had to figure out a way to propigate the species and the sex drive HAD to be high in males to accomplish the successs of mankind.
Just because your brain is wired that way doesnt mean you have to give into it like a lemming.
This is why the phrase dont let the little head think for the big head is so well known.
I know porn is fun to look at but you merely enhance your brains prewiring when you porn out on the series of tubes.
I am no prude and sex is awesome stuff that we all enjoy with gusto.
Remember that you control your brain functions and you can choose were you enhance your wiring and where you dont.
Little head met big head and bow in awe of its power over you.
This guys problem insnt porn its sexualizing children.
At least this time he did not touch a child.
I will never condem someone for having these feelings.
I would condem them for acting on these feelings with children.
If you find yourself looking a children while surfing porn than you have just helped a child be harmed (the kid in the picture was harmed).
This idiot just admitted to another crime and they should check his computer and likely will.
Those who need to sexualize children have often been the victims of child molestation OR they had their sexuality stunted at a young age by some incident.
The human brain is pretty amazing and what you put in your brain should be thought about with a little care.
Nature had to figure out a way to propigate the species and the sex drive HAD to be high in males to accomplish the successs of mankind.
Just because your brain is wired that way doesnt mean you have to give into it like a lemming.
This is why the phrase dont let the little head think for the big head is so well known.
I know porn is fun to look at but you merely enhance your brains prewiring when you porn out on the series of tubes.
I am no prude and sex is awesome stuff that we all enjoy with gusto.
Remember that you control your brain functions and you can choose were you enhance your wiring and where you dont.
Little head met big head and bow in awe of its power over you.
christiefan915
Catalyst
I get my info from books, radio, websites, etc.
Places I don't accept info from are sites like Wikiislam that are set up for the sole purpose of bashing a specific religion, in this case Islam.
It's clear you don't know much about the people and culture of the 6th century middle east.
While I don't know which religion, if any, you practice, it's also clear that your generalizations about all the religions you mentioned do not point to an open mind.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Wow, Christie, way to nail Voltaire as not being "open minded." Not really a deal-breaker, though...
A’isha: Mohammed’s Nine-Year Old Wife
July 2010 version
Numerous people have said that Mohammed had sex with his youngest wife, ‘Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, when he was about 53 and she was only nine years old. Some Muslims deny that. If somebody were to claim Mohammed and ‘Aisha had sex when she was nine, and they were wrong, that would be a serious slander against Mohammed. On the other hand, if it were true, that would show a very different side of Mohammed that would shock many. So is this accusation against Mohammed true or false?
This paper will first give the evidence for A’isha being nine when her marriage was consummated, then raise 11 objections to this, and finally, ask what if each view were correct.
This is important to a widely practiced but overlooked practice today: child brides in Muslim lands due to Mohammed’s example.
In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents’ permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137
In the Ivory Coast this book also tells of a 12 year old girl who would leave the house for hours before returning home. After her father tied her up, burned her back with a piece of iron, locked her up for three days with no food, he eventually married her of to a 40-year old man. He never sent her to school because he said that it would drive them from their tradition, they would start asking questions, and not want to marry until they are 19 or 20.
The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)
The Dallas Morning News Sep 28, 2003 p.1,10S had a story about the sad plight of Muslim Nigerian girls who were married very young, got pregnant and had labor before their small bodies were ready. It was actually somewhat of a gross story, basically of many girls who needed C-sections but did not get them. Many survived, but could not have any children due to their perforated uteruses.
To understand the authoritative nature of the example of Mohammed, we have to understand something of the Muslim hadiths. They hold a higher place in Sunni Islam than church tradition does in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Sunni Muslims hold to six collections of hadiths as the most authoritative writings in Islam after the Qur’an. The rest of this paper shows that the accusation is completely true, according to numerous corroborating early Muslims sources. In addition to these quotes from the six authoritative hadiths is a reference from the highly respected early Muslim historians ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari.
July 2010 version
Numerous people have said that Mohammed had sex with his youngest wife, ‘Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, when he was about 53 and she was only nine years old. Some Muslims deny that. If somebody were to claim Mohammed and ‘Aisha had sex when she was nine, and they were wrong, that would be a serious slander against Mohammed. On the other hand, if it were true, that would show a very different side of Mohammed that would shock many. So is this accusation against Mohammed true or false?
This paper will first give the evidence for A’isha being nine when her marriage was consummated, then raise 11 objections to this, and finally, ask what if each view were correct.
This is important to a widely practiced but overlooked practice today: child brides in Muslim lands due to Mohammed’s example.
In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents’ permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137
In the Ivory Coast this book also tells of a 12 year old girl who would leave the house for hours before returning home. After her father tied her up, burned her back with a piece of iron, locked her up for three days with no food, he eventually married her of to a 40-year old man. He never sent her to school because he said that it would drive them from their tradition, they would start asking questions, and not want to marry until they are 19 or 20.
The Taliban encouraged families to marry off their daughters as young as eight years old. (Voices Behind the Veil p.110)
The Dallas Morning News Sep 28, 2003 p.1,10S had a story about the sad plight of Muslim Nigerian girls who were married very young, got pregnant and had labor before their small bodies were ready. It was actually somewhat of a gross story, basically of many girls who needed C-sections but did not get them. Many survived, but could not have any children due to their perforated uteruses.
To understand the authoritative nature of the example of Mohammed, we have to understand something of the Muslim hadiths. They hold a higher place in Sunni Islam than church tradition does in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Sunni Muslims hold to six collections of hadiths as the most authoritative writings in Islam after the Qur’an. The rest of this paper shows that the accusation is completely true, according to numerous corroborating early Muslims sources. In addition to these quotes from the six authoritative hadiths is a reference from the highly respected early Muslim historians ibn Ishaq and al-Tabari.
Oh, now, you just want your Colorado pervert to be a bigger pervert and more RENOWNED than the Louisiana pervert...
Okay, Damo you win, your pervert is a more famous pervert than the NO pervie! Congrats, what a thing to be known for!
And where is Ted now, Damo, still famous or obscure somewhere?
ahahahahahahahahaha
Colorado wins, Ted is the renowned pervert!
christiefan915
Catalyst
Your point? This is from their own FAQs.
"WikiIslam's primary focus is on the criticism of Islam while Wikipedia is a compendium of general knowledge. As a knowledge base for both Muslims and non-Muslims interested in the criticism of Islam, articles at WikiIslam are naturally not required to be NPOV ("Neutral Point of View")."
Ted is so renowned that when I mention solely his first name everybody on this board will know who I am speaking of. Where is he now? In Colorado Springs starting a new church. How do I know this? Because follow up news stories abound, because there was renown. Had a story called him renowned pastor of New Life Church I would have had no objection to the story because of inaccuracies and attempts to make it more impactful, it would be true. In this case it is not. Some obscure dude who protests in the French Quarter was caught doing something pervy, okay... And then what?
This guy won't have a follow up because people don't know him, nor will they take the time to learn his name.
So, now that we understand that "renown" is fabricated in the news story, we may want to figure out why it was fabricated. Was it bias? If it was, what kind of bias is it?
Rationalist
Hail Voltaire
Christie, according to Aisha's own account she was nine years old when Muhammad consummated the marriage. But remain ignorant if you wish.
christiefan915
Catalyst
Link?
christiefan915
Catalyst
So what makes the site I posted info from less believable than Wikiislam?
The First Argument
The First point considered by the writer is given in my Fifth Argument. I had written:
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
Responding to this point, the author writes:
Even if we assume this narrative to be accurate, we have no reason to give it more weight than those that are so detailed about Ayesha's age, describing her playing with her dolls, talking about her girlfriends coming to play with her and hiding when Muhammad entered the room, her memories of playing on the swing when her mother called her and washed her face and took her to Muhammad, her ignorance of what was going on and her "surprise" when Muhammad got into action taking his role as the husband, etc. These events are more likely to be remembered by someone of her childhood than when a particular Surah was revealed. It is more probable that a person confuse one Surah with the other than confuse all those details of her own life.
In the more acclaimed compilations of narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), the narratives referred by the author relating to Ayesha's playing with her dolls etc. are reported in Bukhariy (No. 5665), Muslim (No. 4470), Abu Dawood (No. 4283), Ibn Maajah (No. 1972) and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (Nos. 23163, 24169, 24770 and 24777).
However, there are two points that the reader should keep in mind, while considering these narratives as evidence for the author's opinion: Firstly, none of these narratives expressly state Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage; and secondly, all of these narratives are also reported by Hisham Ibn Urwah on the authority of his father. Keeping the second point in mind, it should be clear these narratives, reported by the Hisham and Urwah, cannot be presented as support for the narratives, also reported by the same narrators. All the criticisms that I had given on the narrators in my previous responses, obviously, apply to this one as well, as it is reported on the authority primarily of the same individuals.
In view of this fact, it should be clear that the whole issue once again boils down to the lack of any sound reasons to believe that Ayesha (ra) was nine at the time of her marriage, especially when there are other reports, which clearly imply contrary information.
The Second Argument
One of my arguments in my first writing on the topic was:
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
Responding to this point, the author writes:
This is a weak excuse. When the Battle of Badr and Ohud occurred Ayesha was 10 to 11 years old. She did not go to be a warier, like the boys. She went to keep Muhammad warm during the nights. Boys who were less than 15 were sent back, but this did not apply to her.
The author contends that because Ayesha (ra) was not taken along to be a warrior, but for other purposes, therefore, the age limit set for boys did not apply to her.
The point referred by the author can only be taken as a possibility, not as a fact till the time that the author provides clear evidence to support his opinion that the age limit set for boys did not apply to girls, in general, and Ayesha (ra), in particular.
The Third Argument
One of the points in my first response on the topic was:
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Responding to this point, the author writes:
When someone gets that old, people don't care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable to the younger folks and 100 is a round figure. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Ayesha and did not sit to make the calculations and deductions. She was not an important person and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith.
Once again, the author is only pointing out towards a possibility. It should be kept in mind that the author is trying to establish that Ayesha (ra) was nine years old at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh). The author should be reminded that pointing out mere possibilities of error in the given information would not serve his purpose. Obviously, contrary to what the author contends, it is also "Possible" that the information given in the given in the cited paragraph is correct.
The author should also keep in mind that the target of my writings on the issue is not to "prove" that Ayesha (ra) was "X" years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh). On the contrary, my objective was merely to show that the generally held view regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is not based upon contradiction-free information.
The Fourth to Sixth Argument
The Fourth, Fifth and Sixth arguments of the author are also based on the possibility of incorrectness in my citations.
The Seventh Argument
In one of my arguments, I had written:
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
In response to this point, the author writes:
This explanation is absolutely incorrect. Bikr means virgin and, just as in English is not age specific. In fact Ayesha was the second wife of Muhammad (after Khadijah) but Muhammad did not consummate his marriage with her for three years because she was too young. Instead he had to content himself with Umma Salamah, until Ayesha matured a little bit more. It would not have made sense to marry a beautiful woman like Ayesha and wait for three years to take her home.
The author is quite right. Bikr in the Arabic language does, in fact, mean 'virgin'. However, I was actually referring to the usage of the word, not its literal meaning. It is correct that literally the word 'Bikr', like the word "virgin" refers to a biological reality, however, also just as the word 'virgin', the word 'Bikr', in the Arabic language, is used for a young woman, who has not yet had sexual contact, not for a child.
The Eighth Argument
The Eighth argument of the author relates to my following point:
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
In response to this point, the author writes:
This is not certainly correct, for the reasons explained above and also it contradicts the Hadith that the apologist quoted about the age of Asma, Ayesha's sister, who according to that Hadith was 10 years older that Ayesha and died in 73 Hijra.
As for the "reasons explained above", they have already been considered. While, as for the contradiction of the referred narrative with the one, which states that Asma was 10 years older to Ayesha (ra), it leads us to precisely the point, which I have been trying to make that there are so many mutual contradictions in these narratives from which Ayesha's (ra) age can be, directly or indirectly, derived that it becomes difficult to say with certainty what exactly was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage and consummation of marriage.
The Last Argument
I had written:
In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.
The author writes:
I respect his opinion, but disagree with him completely. Not only this WAS the tradition of the Arabs, it is still their tradition and it has become the tradition of other counties that converted to Islam. Even up to this day it is very common to find girls as young as 9-years given for matrimony. Of course the reason that no one objected to the marriage of Muhammad and a 9-year-old girl, is because it was a costume. The reason when it was reported in so many hadithes that neither the author nor the scholars objected is because it was nothing out of the ordinary.
For our purposes, we are not concerned with any later Muslim traditions, which may, obviously, have been influenced by the incorrect information regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. We are concerned only with the pre-Islamic Arab traditions. If, as the author holds, marrying girls at such a young age was really an Arab tradition since the pre-Islamic times, then it would only have been prudent on the part of the author to have cited the source of this information. Requesting this information, I had started my first response on the topic with the following words:
To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/...tion-of-your-analysis-of-ayesha-s-ra-age-8456
christiefan915
Catalyst
I think you have it backwards. Taking a self-described biased site like WikiIslam as gospel on matters of that faith shows you to be the one with blinders on.
At least be honest about your hatred for Islam, instead of providing bogus material to support your claims.
What is the purpose of WikiIslam?
The primary goal of WikiIslam is to collect facts relating to the criticism of Islam from valid Islamic sources without the effects of censorship that is common in Wikipedia.
I’ve heard many good things about Islam. Why doesn’t this site talk about them?
We do not allow the insertion of pro-Islamic opinions into existing critical articles, but we do have articles by Muslims which aim to provide you with a positive view of Islam. Any pro-Islamic opinions that are found on WikiIslam will be rebutted in our critical articles. For reading and contributing exclusively pro-Islamic opinions please see the Muslim Wikipedia.
I'm looking for information on Islam. Is this the site to get it?
Yes if you're looking for information critical of Islam, this is the site to get it. If you haven't found what you're looking for, please make a request in the forum.
Wiki anything is only good for those who support Julian Assange.
Christie's spouse is an instructor in religion and religious history.
Anything religious, she must have a leg up over you.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Wikileaks does not equal wikipedia, wikimedia, wikiislam, or anything else. USA, do you even know what an internet wiki is?