Another perspective on Lebanon and Israel

zoombwaz

Radical Moderate Populist
What follows is the body of an email from Ray Close, retired CIA spook and a member of VIPS (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity). Ray sends out periodic emails to a circle of friends and associates (which includes my father, who forwards them on to me) with his analysis of events in the Middle East and his predictions of likely outcomes. His web of contacts in that region is more than impressive and includes officials from Mossad as well as from Arab intelligence services. His analyses are always spot on, and the accuracy of his predictions is scary. If he has missed a guess in the whole sordid MCF the Shrub has gotten us into, I haven't seen it.

Following is his take in Israel's actions in Lebanon and Gaza

"Chuck Cogan, former Chief of CIA's Near East Division, writing from Harvard now, has provided a very useful response to the question I posed a few days ago in the context of Rami Khouri's excellent essay on the Israeli attacks on Lebanon. I have condensed Chuck's answer to one strikingly significant observation:

The irony in all this is that Israel has an interest in a
multicultural Lebanon and not an Islamist Lebanon, and the high hopes
for the former are being dashed.

The exquisite simplicity of that one sentence has prompted me to add the following comment of my own:

The value of canvassing opinions from a number of friends is that I pick up many little jewels of logic that may seem obvious at first, but sometimes get overlooked in the whole complex fabric of ideas that makes up comprehensive intelligence analysis.

For example, one former Israeli military intelligence officer mentioned to me the other day the ridiculously simple and logical point that the waging of modern asymetrical warfare (and the development of effective strategies to oppose it) has undergone a sea change recently --- not as a result of the development of great "weapons of mass destruction" by evil states, but because our non-state adversaries have developed ingenious new ways to employ relatively small and cheap tactical weapons of the simplest kind. The perfect example, of course, is the use of IED's and car bombs in Iraq, which are frustrating (and punishing) 130,000 highly-trained, expertly-led, heavily-armed and supurbly-equipped US troops and twice that many Iraqi soldiers. Another appropriate example, of course, is the Hizballah situation in southern Lebanon. Even if the Israelis were again to occupy and hold a 20-mile defensive cordon sanitaire above Israel's northern border, then missiles of 30-mile range (or 40 or 50 or 60, as the need demanded) would render that barrier obsolete and useless --- while Hizballah guerrillas, using the other new set of super-weapons --- the IED and the suicide bomber --- would make Israelis just as vulnerable and just as miserable in that so-called "protective zone" as they were during the 18 long years when they occupied the same swath of Lebaneses teritory the last time around. The same applies to Gaza. In 38 long years (count them, mothers and dads) a large modern Israeli war machine, equipped with every hi-tech weapon that modern military science can devise, has been unable to contain, much less defeat, a virulent and lethal resistance movement in tiny little Gaza. Today, the crude and clumsy and inaccurate little home-made Qassam rocket is driving mighty Israel mad. Asymetry at its classic extreme --- David vs Goliath, deja vu.

The lesson here is that nation states (like Iran and North Korea) that are determined to harm the United States and its allies need not develop intercontinental ballistic missiles that distract and blind us to the realities I'm talking about here. They need only supply simple kitchen-variety missiles, armed with simple garden-variety explosives, to their non-state surrogates like Hizballah and Hamas, and let them do the dirty work. Sending multi-million-dollar B-2 stealth bombers with multi-thousand-ton bunker-buster bombs to destroy multi-billion-dollar industrial installations in Iran (or destroying the entire infrastructure of a helpless little neighbor like Lebanon, or depriving a million Gazans of fresh water and electricity) will not really strengthen the defenses of either Israel (or America) as long as there are these simple weapons and these elusive and determined fighters to torture us with endless, painful, maddening pinpricks. (Somebody explain this to Rumsfeld, please. It's a mind thing, Don, not a gun thing.)

Is the massively destructive Israeli aerial bombardment of Lebanon the right way to ensure that Israel will someday live in a peaceful neighborhood?

Folks who think the answer to that question is yes should read over and over again the simple little truth that Chuck Cogan expressed so well:

The irony in all this is that Israel has an interest in a
multicultural Lebanon and not an Islamist Lebanon, and the high hopes
for the former are being dashed.

And then study again the powerful jewel offered by Rami Khouri:

For decades now Israel has established buffer zones, occupation zones, red lines, blue lines, green lines, interdiction zones, killing fields, surrogate army zones, scorched earth, and every other conceivable kind of zone between it and Arabs who fight its occupation and colonial policies -- all without success. Here is why: Protecting Israelis while leaving Arabs to a fate of humiliation, occupation, degradation and subservient acquiescence to Israeli-American dictates only guarantees that those Arabs will regroup, plan a resistance strategy, and come back one day to fight for their land, their humanity, their dignity and the prospect that their children can have a normal life one day."
 
precisely. to fix this problem, we need to look at the socio-economic inequities and realities that fuel the anger of the Islamic world and work hard to find ways to deal with them in non-violent ways. Killing muslims in an effort to get muslims to quit killing us is pretty much guaranteed to either a) not work, or b) lead us into Hell.

that is a great article. Too bad the neocons will scoff at it out of hand.
 
maineman said:
precisely. to fix this problem, we need to look at the socio-economic inequities and realities that fuel the anger of the Islamic world and work hard to find ways to deal with them in non-violent ways. Killing muslims in an effort to get muslims to quit killing us is pretty much guaranteed to either a) not work, or b) lead us into Hell.

that is a great article. Too bad the neocons will scoff at it out of hand.

:rolleyes:

oh the diplomacy works so well with these radicals! ever think these radicals may be as tired of you appeasers as the rest of us? They don't want to be appeased, they don't want to negotiate, they don't want much from you other than your life!

I know you are culturally rich because you spent two years in Lebanon so after all you are just an expert on this subject, but being you were such a special guest to that side of the world why not go back and ask some of the radicals what you can do to help the situation, what it will take for them to chill out a bit, and why they wanna wipe Israel off the map?
 
Sir Evil said:
:rolleyes:

oh the diplomacy works so well with these radicals! ever think these radicals may be as tired of you appeasers as the rest of us? They don't want to be appeased, they don't want to negotiate, they don't want much from you other than your life!

I know you are culturally rich because you spent two years in Lebanon so after all you are just an expert on this subject, but being you were such a special guest to that side of the world why not go back and ask some of the radicals what you can do to help the situation, what it will take for them to chill out a bit, and why they wanna wipe Israel off the map?

why don't you tell me again about Ollie North telling congress how dangerous Osama was.... fucking moron.

I certainly do not have all the answers...but I sure as hell know that your side has NONE of them. The fact remains: killing muslims in an effort to convince them to stop killing us is not a viable solution... but it seems that is all you neocons can come up with.
 
.

I fondly remember the days when bush-loving neocons pointed to Lebanon's democracy, as proof that the Bush war in iraq was working!
 
zoombwaz said:
Here is why: Protecting Israelis while leaving Arabs to a fate of humiliation, occupation, degradation and subservient acquiescence to Israeli-American dictates only guarantees that those Arabs will regroup, plan a resistance strategy, and come back one day to fight for their land, their humanity, their dignity and the prospect that their children can have a normal life one day."

Truer words have never been spoken.
 
LadyT said:
Truer words have never been spoken.
I agree.

Look, my con brethren, I do understand the frustration this causes. I really do. You really want to be able to simply pound the "terrorists" into submission. Having the greatest military in the history of the world makes it seem like this ought to be possible. It really has to be possible, doesn't it?

Well, no: it doesn't. Therein lies the rub. Nowhere is it written that it has to be possible.

Fundamentally, this desire is no different from that which makes me want to toss gonzo off the Bank of America building, so I can watch him land on the Banker's Heart*. These desires, while understandable, do not constitute natural law. I know: it's tough to adjust. :(



*A large and largely reviled black granite sculpture in the plaza in front of the B of A building in downtown San Francisco. It is called "the Banker's Heart" in local parlance only.

ma-9336824-9fe3-02000155-.jpg
 
maineman said:
why don't you tell me again about Ollie North telling congress how dangerous Osama was.... fucking moron.
Hey don't get angry with me because I am not a terrorist sympathizer.

I certainly do not have all the answers...but I sure as hell know that your side has NONE of them. The fact remains: killing muslims in an effort to convince them to stop killing us is not a viable solution... but it seems that is all you neocons can come up with.[/QUOTE]

It's pretty obvious you don't have the answers, hell I have'nt seen any answers from you at all outside of explaining what radical group wants what, I think you might be for one of these factions yourself there mainecoon!
 
Sir Evil said:
Hey don't get angry with me because I am not a terrorist s

It's pretty obvious you don't have the answers, hell I have'nt seen any answers from you at all outside of explaining what radical group wants what, I think you might be for one of these factions yourself there mainecoon!
Admitting one has no answer is better than simply doing something even if it doesn't make any sense. Like, say, invading Iraq to take out terrorists, for example.

Best to admit one's ignorance than confirm it by opening one's mouth. Or invading another country, for that matter.
 
I am no terrorist sympathizer. I just have little patience for ill-informed morons who spout bullshit and claim it as fact. Now...if you would care to provide me with a link to some site that would show what crimes against the United States that we had evidence that OBL had committed prior to 05/96, that would be one way to show that you are not just a flatulent neocon incapable of original thought.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Admitting one has no answer is better than simply doing something even if it doesn't make any sense. Like, say, invading Iraq to take out terrorists, for example.

Best to admit one's ignorance than confirm it by opening one's mouth. Or invading another country, for that matter.


Again, anytime you are ready to reply with solutions or suggestions I will listen, otherwise these posts are just taking up space.
 
maineman said:
I am no terrorist sympathizer. I just have little patience for ill-informed morons who spout bullshit and claim it as fact. Now...if you would care to provide me with a link to some site that would show what crimes against the United States that we had evidence that OBL had committed prior to 05/96, that would be one way to show that you are not just a flatulent neocon incapable of original thought.

Damn, is that your best way of discussing a topic with insults and name calling?

Well alrighty mainecoon, I'll look up some info for your reading pleasure. But still I have to wonder if you are not really a terrorist yourself. I guess it was our own government that pulled of 911 too, right?
 
Sir Evil said:
Again, anytime you are ready to reply with solutions or suggestions I will listen, otherwise these posts are just taking up space.
Make Republicanism a capital offense. That would improve the quality of life immensely. It would also solve the (alleged) immigration problem, too.

No? Oh, okay.

What to do? Leave Iraq now, after admitting that it was a stupid mistake to go in there in the first place. I believe we're still doing more harm than good, as counter-intuitive as that may seem.

We will owe the Iraqis reparations: there's no doubt about that. Best to own up to our mistakes and try to make amends as best we can though.
 
Sir Evil said:
Again, anytime you are ready to reply with solutions or suggestions I will listen, otherwise these posts are just taking up space.
And as to the original topic of this thread, tell Israel to quit killing civilians in Lebanon or we'll yank all of their aid. That's step one. We have less leverage with Hezbollah and so will have to work with Syria and Iran on that side of it. Ironic, but true.
 
Sir Evil said:
Damn, is that your best way of discussing a topic with insults and name calling?

Well alrighty mainecoon, I'll look up some info for your reading pleasure. But still I have to wonder if you are not really a terrorist yourself. I guess it was our own government that pulled of 911 too, right?

so...let me get this straight....you refer to me as "mainecoon", call me a terrorist,and then bitch about insults and namecalling? Have I got that right?
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Make Republicanism a capital offense. That would improve the quality of life immensely. It would also solve the (alleged) immigration problem, too.
And I bet you are a daily member of the DU......:rolleyes:

No? Oh, okay.

What to do? Leave Iraq now, after admitting that it was a stupid mistake to go in there in the first place. I believe we're still doing more harm than good, as counter-intuitive as that may seem.

We will owe the Iraqis reparations: there's no doubt about that. Best to own up to our mistakes and try to make amends as best we can though.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, I never said Iraq was going smoothly but doubt it was a mistake. You are probably right in the fact that we are doing more harm than good, and much of that is just our mere presence over their. Should show you thow the type of radicals that exist out there.

So if we left Iraq be where do you think there cards would be today?
 
maineman said:
so...let me get this straight....you refer to me as "mainecoon", call me a terrorist,and then bitch about insults and namecalling? Have I got that right?
That's one for maineman. :cof1:
 
maineman said:
so...let me get this straight....you refer to me as "mainecoon", call me a terrorist,and then bitch about insults and namecalling? Have I got that right?

Hey slappy that was a good flip flop! I was not the one who started it but now you are asking me why I point it out after stooping to your level.:rolleyes:


nothing wrong with a mainecoon, just a harmless little kitty kat right?:cof1:
 
Sir Evil said:
And I bet you are a daily member of the DU......:rolleyes:
No? Oh, okay.

What to do? Leave Iraq now, after admitting that it was a stupid mistake to go in there in the first place. I believe we're still doing more harm than good, as counter-intuitive as that may seem.

We will owe the Iraqis reparations: there's no doubt about that. Best to own up to our mistakes and try to make amends as best we can though.

Fair enough, I never said Iraq was going smoothly but doubt it was a mistake. You are probably right in the fact that we are doing more harm than good, and much of that is just our mere presence over their. Should show you thow the type of radicals that exist out there.

So if we left Iraq be where do you think there cards would be today?
Their cards? Que?

Do I think that, if we were not occupying Iraq right now, terrorist acts would increase within the U.S. proper? No, I don't. I suggest we find out by experiment.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
Their cards? Que?

Do I think that, if we were not occupying Iraq right now, terrorist acts would increase within the U.S. proper? No, I don't. I suggest we find out by experiment.

In my opinion Iraq today would be send funds, weaponry, over to Afghanistan. True there is no love lost between Iraq & Iran but they both would love nothing more to see the fall of America, so yeah I believe Iraq would also be funding proxy armies to help the cause. You all wanna talk about how OBL & saddam hated each other and had hugely different beliefs, could be but there sure are plenty of AQ fighters in Iraq now. Bottom line is that they all had a common hatred for America and would certainly help in any way they could to bring death and destruction upon Americans how ever possible.
 
Back
Top