Americans reject Obama European style socialism

Damocles said:
People still support reform, they just don't support back-door deals and closeted meetings (like the current one) making deals like the NE deal to pay for votes, and about a myriad other problems.

The particular law that they are attempting to make America choke on isn't the only possible way to "reform" health care and most believe is a malformation rather than a reformation.

Seriously, it really is only the partisan-blind that cannot see that there are myriad other options than this one, and that people disliking this particular craptacular bill are not against reforming health care. It takes the particularly kool-aid filled partisan to pretend that disliking this bill means you want "nothing done".

Being partisan is good, it's what drives us forward. Being partisan-blind is just plain blindness wrapped up in an agreement bow. Usually these people hang out with each other and lead each other to the agreement feast.
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People might support reform, but the Republicans in Congress do not. They just want you to think they support reform and you gratefully oblige them.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You don't know what you're talking about. Only the UK has a state funded Medical system like Canada. The rest of Europe does not. Why do you guys believe this propaganda? Is it that difficult to do a little research and find out how other nations manage their health care systems?
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The UK and New Zealand have nationalized health insurance systems; Canada has a single payer. I'm pretty sure everyone else has some sort of system more hybrid than Canada's.

The thing is that in most countries proportional representation forced them to work with conservatives to craft a universal system; it's no secret why the only countries in the world to have a single member district parliamentary system have relatively radical healthcare systems (in the case of NZ and the UK, socialist parties had absolute control, in the case of Canada, a Liberal party did).

The reason the US doesn't have it or some more moderate system is because the Democrats are so divided and don't really represent a serious left-wing opposition. So anytime anyone proposes it, "moderate" Democrats scream socialism. If it weren't for this, UHC would've been part of the SS bill in the 30's, and tens of millions of American lives would've been saved over the past century.
 
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NigelTufnel said:
People might support reform, but the Republicans in Congress do not. They just want you to think they support reform and you gratefully oblige them.
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The People and the GOP both support reform, just not the Democrat version of reform, which entails more government, less freedom, and a health care plan so crappy that Congress refuses to enroll itself in its own public option.

In every committee when the health care bill was considered, Democrats voted against an amendment that would require members of Congress and their staff to take the government-run public option as their health care plan.

Newt Gingrich on Sunday, August 9th, 2009 in an interview with This Week.
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http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...emocrats-are-opposed-giving-their-health-car/
 
Southern Man said:
The People and the GOP both support reform, just not the Democrat version of reform, which entails more government, less freedom, and a health care plan so crappy that Congress refuses to enroll itself in its own public option.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...emocrats-are-opposed-giving-their-health-car/
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Actually, the bill that passed the Senate required members of Congress to get insurance on the exchanges and I think the House bill did as well.

And no, the GOP members of Congress don't really want healthcare reform of any type to pass. They just want to pretend that they do.
 
NigelTufnel said:
Actually, the bill that passed the Senate required members of Congress to get insurance on the exchanges and I think the House bill did as well.

And no, the GOP members of Congress don't really want healthcare reform of any type to pass. They just want to pretend that they do.
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The senate bill leaves 24 million without coverage. Congress will simply vote themselves a Cadillac plan regardless.

Your second paragraph is simply a lie. Again, the People and the GOP both want reform, just not your version of it.
 
Onceler said:
I reject that the final proposal was "European-style socialism." It included many elements that he ran on, which polled favorably at the time, and was watered down enough that many on the left hated it, and thought Obama was capitulating way too much.

I saw an interesting poll the other day - I think it was WSJ - where they polled the favorability of Obama's plan, and it was down in the low 40's. But when they asked about the main elements of the plan separately, without mentioning that they were part of the plan, they polled near 50.
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Again, people voted more for his promise of transparency than his plan, and "near 50" doesn't pass a bill.

The reality is Americans expected to watch this unfold to hear the ideas and to see the bill without back door deals and direct graft. What pissed them off the most and put them off Obama's bill was the way it was created starting from "We won so you shut up" to deals to get idiots from Nebraska to give up their Senate seats and sacrifice themselves at the altar of Obama, then when they were informed that people didn't want it, especially this way, they were ignored. So long as they keep doing this they will continue to fall in the polls, and if they are pissed enough they will make sure that it is unwound by removing the people who ignored them from power and handing it right back to the "lesser of two evils"...

As it stands, there will be Amendments passed at the State level that will require the states to fight this at every turn. It's going to get ugly.
 
Onceler said:
It's just hackery & wishful thinking to compare him to Carter at this point. Carter started with an economy that wasn't all that bad & made it a heck of a lot worse. Obama started with one of the worst economies in history, and is making it better.

Maybe in 2-3 years, you'll have a point if things are stagnant or worse, but I doubt it.
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Dude, Where you even in the 70's? Carter inherited Nixon's mess and did more to straighten it out (more correctly Voelker did) then Reagan did. Reagan tried tampering with the Fed with his tax cuts and shortly there after raised taxes and went back to Voelker's methods.

When Carter was elected we were all ready in a worse financial period then we are now with both double digit inflation and double digit unemployment and Tricky Dick Nixon was unquestionably responsible for that fiscal mismanagement (though considering his impending impeachment one can understand why he didn't really give a rats ass.).

Carter virtually committed political suicide straightening the mess out. There was much to be critical of Carter for but this oft repeated mythology is not one of them.
 
Southern Man said:
You failed to comprehend my simple sentence. That's why I said that Americans don't want either European or Canadian style socialized medicine. :palm:
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NO...you don't understand what I said. Most of Europe does not have Candadian style socialized Health Care. Only the UK does. What is it about this you don't understand or do you have a definition of "socialism" that the rest of the world doesn't?
 
Southern Man said:
Why? Obama's just as bad as Carter was, and Carter got his ass kicked royally. History is bound to repeat itself.
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Is he or is he going to repeat what Clinton did? Clinton came into office during a recesion, though nothing as severe as this. He also tried to reform health care and failed largely due to insurance company lobbying. What makes you think he won't do what Clinton did? If I remember correctly the right wing said the same thing about Clinton and then nominated a dinosaur like Dole (a good man but granted a dinosaur by then) to run against a man as dynamic as Clinton.

I can only think of two political leaders in the Republican party that has the centrist appeal to beat Obama and it will be a cold day in hell before the Republicans nominate Powell or Romney. Yet ya'll still have your self bullshited that a wing nut can beat Obama. You're nuts! It's not gonna happen.

Who ever the Republicans put forward will have to storm to the center to get elected or will fail spectacularly.
 
Damocles said:
Again, people voted more for his promise of transparency than his plan, and "near 50" doesn't pass a bill.

The reality is Americans expected to watch this unfold to hear the ideas and to see the bill without back door deals and direct graft. What pissed them off the most and put them off Obama's bill was the way it was created starting from "We won so you shut up" to deals to get idiots from Nebraska to give up their Senate seats and sacrifice themselves at the altar of Obama, then when they were informed that people didn't want it, especially this way, they were ignored. So long as they keep doing this they will continue to fall in the polls, and if they are pissed enough they will make sure that it is unwound by removing the people who ignored them from power and handing it right back to the "lesser of two evils"...

As it stands, there will be Amendments passed at the State level that will require the states to fight this at every turn. It's going to get ugly.
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This will be the most popular program in American history, the one thing we're most proud of as a nation, and the millions of lives we're saving that your trying to take will thank us. Bring it on, you piece of shit.
 
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