American society

FUCK THE POLICE

911 EVERY DAY
American society is the most brutal, apathetic, and impersonal society on the Earth right now. It's nearing the level of being a propsperous version of the middle ages.

There was an author, who was a favorite of Jefferson, can't recall his name, but one of his primary arguments for leniency was that harsh punishment represented a brutalization of society. America has by far the harshest punishments out of any society in history, for it's violent and non-violent crimes. And the members of our society still call for higher punishments and call their laws lenient.

We also have a high crime rate. The harshness in our punishment does not cause this, very much the opposite, if our punishments weren't so harsh we would have higher crime, more or less. But our high crime rate and our societies complacency with harsh punishment both come from the same source, the brutality of our society. Our decadence.

Like the Furies of old in the Greek system, our mandatory minimum sentences and three strikes laws come down and punish certain taboos blindly. The third part of the great trilogy Oriestia, for instance, talks about how the furies hunt and kill a man for avenging his father, agaememnon, and freeing his city state from the dictatorship of his mother. The furies, however, were soley concerned with the fact that he killed his mother, and so they swept down and tormented him. By mandatory minimum sentencing, we reduce our justice system to a senseless vengeance system, that of the furies.

Incapacitation is the most ancient of punishments. A thief steals something, cuts off his hand. Most civilized societies balk at such logic, but our decadent one only in the 90's became brutal enough to openly accept the concept, in a more modern sterile form, that of the three strikes laws.

You see, I am in a conundrum. I hate our criminals for being so brutal and I hate our society for being so brutal to them. But it's both one in the same and everyone is brutal to one another, never taking a walk in the others shoes, but just metering out taxation and punishment to those "others" they feel deserve.

There is an interesting story here. In the European Union, a prerequisite for joining is that the country in question abolish the death penalty. So, countries like Poland have grudgingly abolished it, while the death penalty still enjoys widespread political support among the populace. The interesting thing, however, is that the countries in western Europe who don't believe in the death penalty have some of the lowest crime rates in the world. The countries that were forced to abolish it, however, have the highest crime rates in Europe (although not comparable to America's).

I am constantly critiscized for not recongnizing mere retribution as a useful reason to meter out punishment. The only two pragmatic reasons for a society to even have a punishment system are for reform and deterrence. Yet, society has it's greatest support the retribution system, which is pointless.

We shouldn't act shocked whenever our president justifies the torture of individuals whenever it's just what our brutalized, bloodthirsty society demands. We ask for it. And indeed, many layman find no qualm at all with torturing a man. They are sitting at home comfortably. It is happening to someone else. Therefore it does not matter. They deserve it, whether or not it has practical use.

Our society is hopelessly brutalized. It's pointless to reason with the ignorant.






I shall come back with you next week with a rant against people who dislike national healthcare.
 
Interesting post Watermark. As I was reading it I was thinking of the criminal justice system in 18th Century England. It too was vicious, bloodthirsty and fairly ineffective. England's criminal justice system really only became effective when Peel's New Police was formed in the 19th Century and began to spread from the metropolis to the rest of the country. The increased effectiveness of the police (as opposed to the patchwork of systems of watch and ward, parish constables and the like) actually had an impact on crime. Since there was an increased chance of apprehension (and of conviction and punishment) it appeared to have an impact on the populace.
 
The fear of punishment and retribution IS the deterrent.
Wrong, as usual. Custom and conscience are far stronger influences than law.

Take some classes in anthropology sometime, kid. It's the only discipline that really studies human behavior in the real sense of the phrase.
 
Wrong, as usual. Custom and conscience are far stronger influences than law.

Take some classes in anthropology sometime, kid. It's the only discipline that really studies human behavior in the real sense of the phrase.

So a custom of actions and consequences is a very strong enforcer indeed.
 
Asshat, I think Ornot is trying to say you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear.
Kinda why Bush's ideal of an American style of govt in Iraq was doomed to failure.
 
Umm if your society does not like to play nice with each other crime will be a problem. If the culture has better respect for each other the crime rate will be lower.
 
Interesting post Watermark. As I was reading it I was thinking of the criminal justice system in 18th Century England. It too was vicious, bloodthirsty and fairly ineffective. England's criminal justice system really only became effective when Peel's New Police was formed in the 19th Century and began to spread from the metropolis to the rest of the country. The increased effectiveness of the police (as opposed to the patchwork of systems of watch and ward, parish constables and the like) actually had an impact on crime. Since there was an increased chance of apprehension (and of conviction and punishment) it appeared to have an impact on the populace.

The English justice system used to proscribe death for just about everything. But they actually had an office dedicated to commuting those death sentences to transportation. This was how your home nation was populated. :)

Deterrence, of course, is not only judged by the length of the sentence. It's also judged by how well the law is enforced. Of course, you could have harsh sentencees and good enforcement, but why be so brutal? I dunno. I just don't like the American system. It's smoke and mirrors. If we had better enforcement we wouldn't have to have incapacitory three strikes laws and such.
 
Umm if your society does not like to play nice with each other crime will be a problem. If the culture has better respect for each other the crime rate will be lower.

This was kind of the point I was trying to make. Almost every society that believes in the death penalty is a brutalized society in which crime is very high.
 
The fear of punishment and retribution IS the deterrent.

Punishment shouldn't be levied out merely as retribution. If a punishment has no reform purpose, the only other reason it should be levied out is to deter. Try to do both at the same time.

Incapacitation has recently gained a lot of foothold in the United States. It's by far the most brutal method, but it does serve it's purpose, if the individual in question can be expected to recividate at such a high rate that it's trivial to even think about it. In the US, however, it's rather surprising incapacitations widespread support. It's costing us billions, and it's one of the main reasons for our explose near 100% growth in prisoners every decade. Maybe we should put that into enforcement, to increase the deterrence factor?
 
We couldn't solve it by abolishing the death penalty and going through sentencing reform. It's really the society in question. Because our society finds brutality acceptable, in our wars and at home, it has a higher crime rate.

Yep. We are a violent society. And it is continuing and perhaps growing. Freddy Kruger, violent video games, pro wrassling, etc....
Our overall attitude seems to have gotten more violent in recent years. For instance the acceptance by many of torturing prisoners , gitmo.
Nuke em all and let god sort em out, etc...
the lack of total outrage over Gitmo...
 
Umm if your society does not like to play nice with each other crime will be a problem. If the culture has better respect for each other the crime rate will be lower.

I agree. But punishment for crime (call it whatever you want) DOES have a deterrent effect. punishing crimes can be a custom also. He thought throwing the word CUSTOM into the mix would seem cool. He was wrong. It's just idiotic.
 
Wrong, as usual. Custom and conscience are far stronger influences than law.

Take some classes in anthropology sometime, kid. It's the only discipline that really studies human behavior in the real sense of the phrase.
Law has a bearing on customs as well as on conscience. Usually the one is made or changed because of the customs and conscience.
 
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