American mom spent her life advocating for Palestinian rights. Then, Hamas came

BartenderElite said:
I disagree w/ most of this, but this is your position & I doubt I can change your mind. I would hope you would at least have a comment on the OP celebrating that this American mom is now at the mercy of Hamas.
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You disagree with which parts? That she was taken hostage, can't be that, it is a fact. That Hamas is the elected government there? Can't be that either, it is also a fact. That they showed they didn't care that she advocated for Palestinians? Can't be that, that is also clear. That we didn't stop fighting Germans because there were some who didn't vote for Nazis? No, that is also a fact...

So, it must be that Israel and the rest of the world should not hold back because there are some Palestinians who didn't vote for Hamas, just as we didn't hold back because there were some Germans who didn't vote for Nazis. And that when prisoners of war were taken by Germany we didn't pretend it wasn't Germany that took them because some portion of Germans didn't vote for Nazis. That must be what you disagree with...

So when you say "Most" of what I said you disagreed with... basically you think we should hold back and not do anything, that Israel and the rest of the world should just sit back and let them kill Jews, because there were some Palestinians that didn't vote for them?
 
Damocles said:
You disagree with which parts? That she was taken hostage, can't be that, it is a fact. That Hamas is the elected government there? Can't be that either, it is also a fact. That they showed they didn't care that she advocated for Palestinians? Can't be that, that is also clear. That we didn't stop fighting Germans because there were some who didn't vote for Nazis? No, that is also a fact...

So, it must be that Israel and the rest of the world should not hold back because there are some Palestinians who didn't vote for Hamas, just as we didn't hold back because there were some Germans who didn't vote for Nazis. And that when prisoners of war were taken by Germany we didn't pretend it wasn't Germany that took them because some portion of Germans didn't vote for Nazis. That must be what you disagree with...

So when you say "Most" of what I said you disagreed with... basically you think we should hold back and not do anything, that Israel and the rest of the world should just sit back and let them kill Jews, because there were some Palestinians that didn't vote for them?
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Weren't you just talking about strawmen?
 
BartenderElite said:
And there is this one, too - in addition to the OP.
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If you quoted that one and then asked if you think she should be taken hostage because she advocated on behalf of Palestinians I would have remained silent. However, what you asked was whether he thought Hamas are Palestinians, to which he responded that they were. The conversation you and I were having was whether Hamas were Palestinians, because that was what you quoted.
 
BartenderElite said:
And there is this one, too - in addition to the OP.
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Palestine's stormed into Israel and killed women and children and took the Cindy woman...If u can link some other people that were responsible do it....was it French? Amish? Finns? If not Palestine's than who? I will wait
 
BartenderElite said:
Weren't you just talking about strawmen?
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These are questions. I need you to elaborate. You said you "disagree with most" of what I said, so I broke it up into smaller bits. The only thing you could "disagree" with, that were not simple facts, was the last part. Or maybe you don't disagree with "most" of what I said. You could just be a poor communicator.
 
Damocles said:
If you quoted that one and then asked if you think she should be taken hostage because she advocated on behalf of Palestinians I would have remained silent. However, what you asked was whether he thought Hamas are Palestinians, to which he responded that they were. The conversation you and I were having was whether Hamas were Palestinians, because that was what you quoted.
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You missed the point of my original response. I wasn't arguing that Hamas aren't Palestinians - I was arguing the idea that because they're Palestinians, ALL Palestinians are guilty.

Read the whole exchange from the OP to that response. That's all I was saying - that this mom was NOT advocating for Hamas by supporting Palestinians. The OP was arguing that it was enough that Hamas was Palestinian - and that this mom deserved what she got for supporting Palestinians.
 
volsrock said:
Palestine's stormed into Israel and killed women and children and took the Cindy woman...If u can link some other people that were responsible do it....was it French? Amish? Finns? If not Palestine's than who? I will wait
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Look, he is right. I won't celebrate that she was taken hostage. Even if she advocated for Palestinians. I do see the horrible irony, but don't think it is Karmic by any measure. I hope they give her the opportunity to speak in her own behalf before torturing or rapine, etc. I don't think that even Hamas is stupid enough to purposefully take her hostage and do horrible things to her after she advocated. They must be ignorant of her opinion.
 
Damocles said:
If you quoted that one and then asked if you think she should be taken hostage because she advocated on behalf of Palestinians I would have remained silent. However, what you asked was whether he thought Hamas are Palestinians, to which he responded that they were. The conversation you and I were having was whether Hamas were Palestinians, because that was what you quoted.
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I disagreed w/ the idea that Israel or the world "shouldn't hold back" in their response - which is something that has been argued here all day. That means all-out war - Sherman's march kind of stuff. It's not a choice between that, and doing nothing.

Israel's response should be against Hamas. Of course there may be collateral damage in that - but that should be avoided like it is by any civilized nation in war.
 
Damocles said:
Look, he is right. I won't celebrate that she was taken hostage. Even if she advocated for Palestinians. I do see the horrible irony, but don't think it is Karmic by any measure. I hope they give her the opportunity to speak in her own behalf before torturing or rapine, etc.
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I truly appreciate this post. I don't think you and I are TOO far off in this discussion, but maybe I didn't communicate my views as well as I could.
 
Damocles said:
Look, he is right. I won't celebrate that she was taken hostage. Even if she advocated for Palestinians. I do see the horrible irony, but don't think it is Karmic by any measure. I hope they give her the opportunity to speak in her own behalf before torturing or rapine, etc. I don't think that even Hamas is stupid enough to purposefully take her hostage and do horrible things to her after she advocated. They must be ignorant of her opinion.
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There's no glee or celebration in her becoming a hostage. On the other hand, she has likely learned a valuable life lesson here about who she was advocating for. I doubt Hamas gave her any opportunity to do anything other than cower in bonds. The worst part is, I doubt she and the other hostages have much negotiation value at this point from the way Israel is responding to the attack.
 
BartenderElite said:
I disagreed w/ the idea that Israel or the world "shouldn't hold back" in their response - which is something that has been argued here all day. That means all-out war - Sherman's march kind of stuff. It's not a choice between that, and doing nothing.

Israel's response should be against Hamas. Of course there may be collateral damage in that - but that should be avoided like it is by any civilized nation in war.
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If Mexico invaded the US, taking hostages and firing rockets everywhere, do you think we should only try to take action against their government or do you think we should fight to win the war they declared on us? Do you think Britain should never have fought Germany, but instead should have only carefully concocted some magical potion to kill only their leadership because some Germans didn't vote for Nazis?
 
Damocles said:
If Mexico invaded the US, taking hostages and firing rockets everywhere, do you think we should only try to take action against their government or do you think we should fight to win the war they declared on us? Do you think Britain should never have fought Germany, but instead should have only carefully concocted some magical potion to kill only their leadership because some Germans didn't vote for Nazis?
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I get what you're trying to argue here - but I'm just a "rules of war" kind of person. I don't think the ends always justify the means.

I'll always be against the decision to use the bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Always. I just feel that when we do that as a nation, we're no better than those we condemn.

What Hamas did is unthinkable to me. Like, literally - when I start to think about it, I get sick to my stomach. They deserve the wrath of hell for what they did & are doing.

But I just don't think the Palestinians in Gaza deserve that. Yes, some - maybe even more than 50% - support Hamas (though I think that's unclear). There are still a ton of children & other innocents there. I'm not a strategist, but I have to believe there is a way to punish Hamas & bring them to justice and keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Maybe that's naive. But when some on here (not you) act like the civilians there "have it coming" or something, I just can't relate to that.
 
volsrock said:
An American mom, 67, spent her life advocating for Palestinian rights. Now she's a Hamas hostage.

SHEFAYIM KIBBUTZ, Israel − They exchanged text messages and emojis. Brief status updates with words of encouragement. A picture of the beloved family dog, Tutsi.

Until no more messages came.

And then, Cindy Flash, an American, and her Israeli husband, Igal, vanished into the violence, presumed kidnapped by Hamas.


"They are breaking down the safe room door," Flash said in one of her final messages to her daughter Keren, 34. "We need someone to come by the house right now." Keren had been communicating with her parents from a few houses away.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...n&cvid=36415400d435405b85a95ec7ddc75194&ei=10


Guess this Lib idiot is getting a first hand taste of these blood thirsty savages she has been advocating for! Wonder if she is enjoying her new pals? Hope so!
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I'm sure her Hamas captors really appreciate all the support she has offered them over the years. No doubt she's being treated with the utmost dignity and respect.
 
BartenderElite said:
I get what you're trying to argue here - but I'm just a "rules of war" kind of person. I don't think the ends always justify the means.

I'll always be against the decision to use the bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Always. I just feel that when we do that as a nation, we're no better than those we condemn.

What Hamas did is unthinkable to me. Like, literally - when I start to think about it, I get sick to my stomach. They deserve the wrath of hell for what they did & are doing.

But I just don't think the Palestinians in Gaza deserve that. Yes, some - maybe even more than 50% - support Hamas (though I think that's unclear). There are still a ton of children & other innocents there. I'm not a strategist, but I have to believe there is a way to punish Hamas & bring them to justice and keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Maybe that's naive. But when some on here (not you) act like the civilians there "have it coming" or something, I just can't relate to that.
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And if u were in charge in 1944 we would be speaking German or Japanese


Was Gen Grant and the US Army wrong to burn down southern cities!


Good thing u were not in charge of the north we would still have slaves
 
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BartenderElite said:
I get what you're trying to argue here - but I'm just a "rules of war" kind of person. I don't think the ends always justify the means.

I'll always be against the decision to use the bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Always. I just feel that when we do that as a nation, we're no better than those we condemn.

What Hamas did is unthinkable to me. Like, literally - when I start to think about it, I get sick to my stomach. They deserve the wrath of hell for what they did & are doing.

But I just don't think the Palestinians in Gaza deserve that. Yes, some - maybe even more than 50% - support Hamas (though I think that's unclear). There are still a ton of children & other innocents there. I'm not a strategist, but I have to believe there is a way to punish Hamas & bring them to justice and keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Maybe that's naive. But when some on here (not you) act like the civilians there "have it coming" or something, I just can't relate to that.
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The thing of it is, this is the government that they elected taking action that they were elected to take. It wasn't like they ran on a message of peace and got elected and then changed their message mid-stream.

This is like the government of Germany taking a war into France because they believed that they had a right to "room" that happened to be occupied by different folks than them.

Nowadays we take care not to kill civilians if we can avoid it, we do war a tiny bit better than back in the day. However I think Israel should fight to win, and we should support them in that endeavor.
 
Damocles said:
The thing of it is, this is the government that they elected taking action that they were elected to take. It wasn't like they ran on a message of peace and got elected and then changed their message mid-stream.

This is like the government of Germany taking a war into France because they believed that they had a right to "room" that happened to be occupied by different folks than them.

Nowadays we take care not to kill civilians if we can avoid it, we do war a tiny bit better than back in the day. However I think Israel should fight to win, and we should support them in that endeavor.
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The last part is certainly fair. I'm on Israel's side in this, without doubt. My support for innocents in Gaza doesn't undermine that view.

It's all more complicated than my linear arguments on here allot for. When you brought up England in WWII, I supported how they conducted the war - they were in that place of last resort, and did what they had to. Like you said above, we've gotten a little better over the years at avoiding civilian casualties, but they're still part of war.
 
BartenderElite said:
I get what you're trying to argue here - but I'm just a "rules of war" kind of person. I don't think the ends always justify the means.

I'll always be against the decision to use the bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Always. I just feel that when we do that as a nation, we're no better than those we condemn.

.
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Was Gen Grant and the US Army wrong to burn down southern cities?


"rules of war"

with the Palestinians there is no "rules of war" they are not a Nation with an Army...they wear no uniform

They are terrorists...Terrorists are unprivileged combatant/belligerent and not protected!

An unlawful combatant, illegal combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a person who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war and therefore is claimed not to be protected by the Geneva Conventions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlaw...combatant,protected by the Geneva Conventions.

The IDF does not have to follow the rules of war fighting Hamas
 
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guno said:
Remember the christian world didn't give a shit about Jews in the in 1935 (Nuremberg Laws)
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Hitler hated Judaism. But he loathed Christianity, too.
Hitler’s mother was a devout Catholic. His father considered religion a scam.

But Hitler, born 130 years ago on April 20, 1889, began rejecting religion as a teenager. He was pulled in different directions by his parents.

His mother, Klara, reportedly the only person Hitler ever loved, was a devout Catholic. His father, Alois, with whom Hitler often fought, thought religion was essentially a scam — a “crutch for human weakness,” as another historian put it.

Hitler followed his father’s religious path straight into infamy. He hated Judaism, gleefully murdering 6 million Jews. But he loathed Christianity, too.

Hitler’s mother was ‘the only person he genuinely loved.’ Cancer killed her decades before he became a monster.

“In Hitler’s eyes Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves,” wrote Alan Bullock “Hitler, A Study in Tyranny,” a seminal biography. “Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle of the fittest.”

By 1942, Hitler vowed, according to Bullock, to “root out and destroy the influence of the Christian Churches,” describing them as “the evil that is gnawing our vitals.”

“I can’t at present give them the answer they’ve been asking for,” Hitler said. “The time will come when I’ll settle my account with them. They’ll hear from me all right.”

But first, he had to finish off the Jews.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/20/hitler-hated-judaism-he-loathed-christianity-too/

The Third Reich was not christian
 
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