After 107 years in Milwaukee, Harley could leave

Mott the Hoople said:
I'm not saying that. I'm saying they have the same right to organize and negotiate a price for their services that we do. If they try to charge more then the market will bear, the market won't bear it. Isn't that how a free market capitalism works?
Click to expand...
My question here is what are you complaining about? Harley Davidson is saying that they can get a better deal elsewhere in the US and are willing to do it, the union appears to be calling the bluff and will likely either be moving and working for less or be out a job that paid too much for their services. This is market driven, if they couldn't get a better deal elsewhere then they'd have no leverage and wouldn't be able to make such a decision. However, at this time you and I both know that there are a zillion unemployed people who would be happy to work for HD at the lower rate...
 
Southern Man said:
Translation: your ignorance of basic economics has been exposed, so you pretend that you don't care about it.:good4u:
Click to expand...


Nah, it's just irrelevant. Who cares? Seriously. I don't give a shit. I was responding to a particular assertion regarding companies existing to make the workers wealthy, not having a general discussion about the market for competent executives and the compensation they command.

Go piss up a rope or something.
 
Damocles said:
My question here is what are you complaining about? Harley Davidson is saying that they can get a better deal elsewhere in the US and are willing to do it, the union appears to be calling the bluff and will likely either be moving and working for less or be out a job that paid too much for their services. This is market driven, if they couldn't get a better deal elsewhere then they'd have no leverage and wouldn't be able to make such a decision. However, at this time you and I both know that there are a zillion unemployed people who would be happy to work for HD at the lower rate...
Click to expand...
I'm not complaining about that. I'm complaining about the double standard that some of the union bashers have. The very opening comment by Yurt made it clear he blames union workers for Harley having economic difficulties because they negotiated a high wage for their members. If Harley is having financial difficulties it is because they are not selling bikes. If the situation is so bad that it's not sustainable then the union workers will have to make concessions or lose their jobs but don't blame the unions for that. Here's another suggestion for Harley. LOWER THE FUCKING PRICE OF YOUR BIKES SO YOU SELL MORE OF THEM! They can make up the profits via the economy of scale from increased sales.

We do that all the time in the chemical business. If the volume of sales decrease we decrease margin to increase the volumes of sales. If sales are strong we increase margin to increase profits but if we increase margin to much we lose sales.

That's really the situation Harley is in, people aren't buying their bikes cause times are hard. Maybe Harley needs to adjust to market condition and decrease their margin per unit to increase sales.
 
Last edited:
NigelTufnel said:
Nah, it's just irrelevant. Who cares? Seriously. I don't give a shit. I was responding to a particular assertion regarding companies existing to make the workers wealthy, not having a general discussion about the market for competent executives and the compensation they command.

Go piss up a rope or something.
Click to expand...
No reason to run away all mad. You were right about the State tax laws, so you're not completely retarded.

I predict that Harley will eventually move to The South, where freedom loving Americans have been relocating to since Carrier invented air conditioning.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I'm not complaining about that. I'm complaining about the double standard that some of the union bashers have. The very opening comment by Yurt made it clear he blames union workers for Harley having economic difficulties because they negotiated a high wage for their members. If Harley is having financial difficulties it is because they are not selling bikes. If the situation is so bad that it's not sustainable then the union workers will have to make concessions or lose their jobs but don't blame the unions for that. Here's another suggestion for Harley. LOWER THE FUCKING PRICE OF YOUR BIKES SO YOU SELL MORE OF THEM! They can make up the profits via the economy of scale from increased sales.

We do that all the time in the chemical business. If the volume of sales decrease we decrease margin to increase the volumes of sales. If sales are strong we increase margin to increase profits but if we increase margin to much we lose sales.

That's really the situation Harley is in, people aren't buying their bikes cause times are hard. Maybe Harley needs to adjust to market condition and decrease their margin per unit to increase sales.
Click to expand...

The relatively high price of a Harley is part of its allure, like a Cadillac, Lexus, or Mercedes. They might sell less with a lower price.
 
Southern Man said:
The relatively high price of a Harley is part of its allure, like a Cadillac, Lexus, or Mercedes. They might sell less with a lower price.
Click to expand...
That's certainly a possiblity. It could also lower the value of used Harleys on the market too. Again, my argument isn't against Harley's uninon workers taking concesions. Market forces will manage that just like raw materials cost. My point is that Harley's current situation isn't completely because of the cost of union labor. It's because they aren't selling Bikes.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That's certainly a possiblity. It could also lower the value of used Harleys on the market too. Again, my argument isn't against Harley's uninon workers taking concesions. Market forces will manage that just like raw materials cost. My point is that Harley's current situation isn't completely because of the cost of union labor. It's because they aren't selling Bikes.
Click to expand...
You're right there: lots of things aren't being sold in this economy. But the fact is that Harley would be foolish not to shop around for another state to do business at lower cost. I'd like to see them right next to our new Caterpillar plant in Winston-Salem...
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I have no problem with that. If the market cant' bear what these workers wish to charge then so be it but they have every right in the world to organize and negotiate for their fair share of the economic pie.

Keep in mind, just cause the company is saying that they can't sustain current wages and benefits doesn't neccessarily meant that this is true. If I was a union worker there I'd say "Fine, show us the books. If your losing money and can't sustain business we'll make concessions." If they won't show them the books, well, you know what that means.
Click to expand...

I agree with your first paragraph. Your second is incorrect. It is NOT about showing that they are 'losing' money. The investors have a right to make money too.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I don't think that would hurt Harley nearly as badly as moving over seas. Personally, I think Harley is bluffing to a degree. This all sounds like pretty standard negotiating tactics to me. It's pretty common for a profitable company to use poor economic condidtions, even though they are profitable, to negotiate concessions from their Union. My guess, considering Harley relies upon a large number of skilled laborers at their plants that they are in a large degree bluffing. Harley probably will get concession. The sales figures and financials I've seen show that Harley is still generating profits but that due to the recession sales and profits are down. As a counterpoint though, when sales go up the Union will probably negotiate for wage and benefit increases.
Click to expand...

I can tell you right now... for a fact... they are not bluffing about moving out of WI. They are looking at 3 states right now to move the manufacturing to. This is primarily due to the complete ignorance of the WI tax law changes, though if the union accepts the concessions that can offset the WI tax changes, then Harley would prefer to stay put.
 
Socrtease said:
Bad comparison. If I charge too much people hire other attorneys. If all attorneys charge too much then you see more pro se litigants. Right now with the economy in the shape it is in that is exactly what has happened in the family law arena. Pro se litigants are on the rise. Pro Se clinics are full. Most attorneys I know have either dropped their initial retainer amount, or are offering flat rate divorces where there is no disagreement and parties just want to be divorced. So why is it in a bad economy everyone BUT unions have to tighten their belts? Why is it you think worker wages have priority of corporate profits? Tell you what, why don't all those wonderfully skilled laborers start their own motorcycle company? I mean anyone in the US is free to start their own company right? They can even advertise that everyone that works at their plant used to work for Harley. They can make bikes that are just the same. They can put their own V-Twins in them, they can claim same great quality. The reason they don't is because the motorcycles they build are sold to people based on BRAND. Harley Davidson, not Harley Davidson workers. Given time, you can teach people anywhere to build them. So long as Harley remains a US company, there will be 18 month waiting lists to get new bikes.
Click to expand...

this is true
 
Southern Man said:
The relatively high price of a Harley is part of its allure, like a Cadillac, Lexus, or Mercedes. They might sell less with a lower price.
Click to expand...

Bunk.

The price of a Harley has been driven up in recent years by people like the Teutels and other bike customizers.

The POS cheapo Harley costs as much as the top end Yamaha or Suzuki. Hell, the off the showroom floor models with no upgrades costs as much as a Ford Mustang!

Harleys are overpriced, uncomfortable nut busters that shake themselves apart in 30,000 miles.

Give me an older Yamaha Virago or the Suzuki Intruder, either is like riding on glass ist's so smooth.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Bunk.

The price of a Harley has been driven up in recent years by people like the Teutels and other bike customizers.

The POS cheapo Harley costs as much as the top end Yamaha or Suzuki. Hell, the off the showroom floor models with no upgrades costs as much as a Ford Mustang!

Harleys are overpriced, uncomfortable nut busters that shake themselves apart in 30,000 miles.

Give me an older Yamaha Virago or the Suzuki Intruder, either is like riding on glass ist's so smooth.
Click to expand...
I don't see anything here that refutes my statement.
 
Socrtease said:
Why is it you think worker wages have priority of corporate profits? .
Click to expand...

W2 employees have to be paid. period. Before profits. The law sees is that way. Because corporations are just individuals with legal protection to fuck it all up and then walk away, through the wonders of the corporate veil and the general fascist system of our nation.
 
Move the factory to Louisiana and the quality will imporve, it'll be non union USA made and sales will rise.
 
Socrtease said:
Because if a company doesn't make a profit it goes out of business. Why is it lefties all think the ONLY reason for a company to exist is to take care of workers? To make workers wealthy and to hell with the bottom line? It tough times EVERYONE has to tighten their belts, also the law that makes Harley report all their income from out of state as in state is STUPID. They should relocate for JUST THAT REASON. Hell there are a lot of people here in NM that would gladly work for Harley.
Click to expand...

They move to AZ and I would kill to get a job with them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top