ACLU vs. alQaeda!

[Minister of Truth]

FDR's quote is particularly relevant to Dixie today...

"We have nuthing to fear, but fear itself."

I have never seen a more blatent example of what he was talking about as Dixie's desire to torture POW's.

And remember FDR said that in the face of Natzi agression.

Wrongo - he said that in his 1933 inaugural address referring to the Great Depression. FDR never would have claimed that Japan and Germany didn't represent huge physical threats to our national survival or else he would not have stuffed the Japanese into camps.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Well fucktard, you're certainly going to get your wish. You will see hundreds, maybe thousands, of dead Americans. I hope you can sleep well knowing they died so you could claim righteousness.

And what about the millions we could have saved using 500 billion dollars?

Your consequentalism in this argument can't get to me, dixie, because if we were to disregard right and wrong and judge success purely by the outcome, I can think of much better outcomes for the US.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

And what about the millions we could have saved using 500 billion dollars?

Your consequentalism in this argument can't get to me, dixie, because if we were to disregard right and wrong and judge success purely by the outcome, I can think of much better outcomes for the US.

I can think of a much better outcome for you... if you hadn't been born!

Yeah, let's try paying off the terrorists! ...Only, wait... our money isn't worth a shit anymore!

 

[Minister of Truth]

That was epic pwnage of Jarod, btw.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

That was epic pwnage of Jarod, btw.

No offense, but pwning Jarhead is about like pwning air, you really don't pwn anything. If brain power were wattage, he would be an LED.

 

[Cancel3]

Sol, you are kidding yourself if you think anyone is going to read this thread and then DECIDE what they believe from this point forward. I think we can assume that most non-brain-dead people have formed some kind of opinion on this, at this point in time, and if they haven't, well... what we say here on a political forum, is not likely to form one for them. But, it is nice of you to reveal your motivation is purely political, and you are simply cheerleading for the Democrat Party.

I am not cheerleading for anyone. That you somehow think doing what is right is cheerleading for a political party says a lot about your mindset.

I am sure you have heard the Burke quote "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

I like to think that a well formulated argument can sway undecided people. You asked why I was still arguing, and I gave you a legitimate answer. The other reason I was still arguing is that its entertaining to debate on these forums. I believe I am right, so I continue to take a stand. I can only assume you feel the same way. Surely you did not think you were goingto change the minds of those of us who oppose your point of view?

 

[Jarod]

Wrongo - he said that in his 1933 inaugural address referring to the Great Depression. FDR never would have claimed that Japan and Germany didn't represent huge physical threats to our national survival or else he would not have stuffed the Japanese into camps.

FDR never claimed that Japan and Germany did not represent huge physical threats to our national survival... what he did claim was that we should not act out of fear.

Even in 1933 Germany and Japan were growing threats. We were wrong to stuff the Jap's into camps, and it went against what FDR said about fear. That does not take away the fact that he said it.

It also does not change the fact that what Bush did is wrong and against what FDR said.

 

[Jarod]

No offense, but pwning Jarhead is about like pwning air, you really don't pwn anything. If brain power were wattage, he would be an LED.

If thats the case, why do you ignore more than half the question I present to you?

Just look at my signature... You are owned every time I post!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I am not cheerleading for anyone. That you somehow think doing what is right is cheerleading for a political party says a lot about your mindset.

I am sure you have heard the Burke quote "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

I like to think that a well formulated argument can sway undecided people. You asked why I was still arguing, and I gave you a legitimate answer. The other reason I was still arguing is that its entertaining to debate on these forums. I believe I am right, so I continue to take a stand. I can only assume you feel the same way. Surely you did not think you were goingto change the minds of those of us who oppose your point of view?

Let's clear some things up. You certainly are cheerleading, you admitted your motivation was to sway the undecided to your political point of view. That is cheerleading, even if it is stupid on its face. If anyone is truly undecided, after all that has transpired since 9/11, after two presidential elections, after countless books and movies, after countless hearings, findings, and reports, then what they happen to read on an obscure Internet message board, is not likely going to "sway" anything. It's just plain stupid to assume that.

Doing what is "right" is a matter of personal opinion. Obviously, you think it is "right" to treat enemies of American citizens, who admit they wish to kill us, as if they are American citizens with Constitutional rights and protections. Again, it is stupid beyond belief, and has nothing to do with "right" in my opinion. You fail to understand this is a war, and our enemies are not moved by your liberal compassion, in fact, they will do everything they can to exploit that to their advantage in order to defeat us.

It is interesting you take this opportunity to interject some pinhead quote here, as if to illustrate how much more 'intellectual' your position is. This is a classic pinhead tactic, but again... stupid beyond belief, because it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. In fact, I can apply that same quote to my viewpoint against you, and it works equally as well. You'll notice, I don't do that, because I am not a pinhead.

Lastly, I am not "arguing" anything, and you are. That is the difference here. I am stating the facts of reality and telling you what we can expect as a result of the new policies regarding interrogation of terrorists. It's a statement, not an argument. My motivation for doing it, is not to "sway" some mythical opinion, it is because I have the Constitutional right to do so, and to not do anything... well, see the Burke quote you posted. You see, from your perspective, you think I am arguing that my view is correct and your view is incorrect, and people should adopt my view over yours. That is erroneous, because I already understand the majority of voters made up their minds in November, and we have a new set of policies going in place. It is no longer an argument over who is correct or incorrect, time will tell on that. I am merely pointing out what we can expect to happen, as a result of your stupidity and lack of good judgment. If you don't think it's going to happen, that's fine, it dovetails nicely with the stupidity you've already demonstrated. But, this is not an argument or debate.

 

[Onceler]

"we have a new set of policies going in place"

I thought you said Obama was Bush 3?

 

[Cancel3]

Let's clear some things up. You certainly are cheerleading, you admitted your motivation was to sway the undecided to your political point of view. That is cheerleading, even if it is stupid on its face. If anyone is truly undecided, after all that has transpired since 9/11, after two presidential elections, after countless books and movies, after countless hearings, findings, and reports, then what they happen to read on an obscure Internet message board, is not likely going to "sway" anything. It's just plain stupid to assume that.

Doing what is "right" is a matter of personal opinion. Obviously, you think it is "right" to treat enemies of American citizens, who admit they wish to kill us, as if they are American citizens with Constitutional rights and protections. Again, it is stupid beyond belief, and has nothing to do with "right" in my opinion. You fail to understand this is a war, and our enemies are not moved by your liberal compassion, in fact, they will do everything they can to exploit that to their advantage in order to defeat us.

It is interesting you take this opportunity to interject some pinhead quote here, as if to illustrate how much more 'intellectual' your position is. This is a classic pinhead tactic, but again... stupid beyond belief, because it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. In fact, I can apply that same quote to my viewpoint against you, and it works equally as well. You'll notice, I don't do that, because I am not a pinhead.

Lastly, I am not "arguing" anything, and you are. That is the difference here. I am stating the facts of reality and telling you what we can expect as a result of the new policies regarding interrogation of terrorists. It's a statement, not an argument. My motivation for doing it, is not to "sway" some mythical opinion, it is because I have the Constitutional right to do so, and to not do anything... well, see the Burke quote you posted. You see, from your perspective, you think I am arguing that my view is correct and your view is incorrect, and people should adopt my view over yours. That is erroneous, because I already understand the majority of voters made up their minds in November, and we have a new set of policies going in place. It is no longer an argument over who is correct or incorrect, time will tell on that. I am merely pointing out what we can expect to happen, as a result of your stupidity and lack of good judgment. If you don't think it's going to happen, that's fine, it dovetails nicely with the stupidity you've already demonstrated. But, this is not an argument or debate.

First of all, by wanting to educate those who are undecided, I am not cheerleading anyone, I am spreading facts.

Second of all, yes you certainly are arguing, just like everyone else. You want to claim that you are stating facts and the others are arguing, but thats bullshit. Most of what you post is opinion and speculation. And much of what you post has been disproved. That you claim waterboarding is not torture shows your ignorance on the subject. That you claim we have not tortured anyone (actually you said "I do not believe we have tortured anyone") shows your inability to accept the truth. That you think allowing our intell people to torture people is the ONLY way we will prevent another attack shows that you are either misguided or naive.

I understand we are at war. I also understand that if you are willing to throw away your principles because of this threat, you will throw them away for almost any reason. If you think its ok to torture people who may be innocent, then you are as bad as those we are fighting against.

This is not a liberal position. This is the position taken by anyone who thinks people are not subhuman simply because they are not US citizens.

And my quote is perfectly pertinant to this topic. If good men (me and people like me) do nothing, then the evil (people willing to torture people who may be innocent) will triumph. I have never said we should do nothing about the terrorists. I have just always maintained that we do not throw out the US Constitution or basic human decency in order to pursue them. (you will notice I didn't say "stop them", because even throwing out the US Constitution and basic human decency will not allow us to completely stop them)

Now, you claim that, because of the election, it is no longer an argument over who is correct or incorrect?? What sort of bullshit is that? Does what is right and wrong change because of an election??

What I am saying is what is right. You do not torture people. That is simply the wrong thing to do. I see that you think there is justification for it. But it is wrong, and the end does not justify the means.

I was loudly arguing against torture when the Bush administration was doing it. The fact that the powerful people ok'd it did not change anything in my mind.






You see Dixie, you are trying to approach this as a political situation. I am approaching it as a matter of humanity. I will not compromise my principles or my beliefs because of a change in leadership or the threat of attack.

You, on the other hand......well......

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

First of all, by wanting to educate those who are undecided, I am not cheerleading anyone, I am spreading facts.

I would say, if someone is truly undecided on this issue, they are "uneducatable" and should be checked for signs of brain activity. I doubt seriously they have the capacity to even log into this forum, or get on the Internet, if that is the case. And you are spreading liberal propaganda, not facts.

Second of all, yes you certainly are arguing, just like everyone else. You want to claim that you are stating facts and the others are arguing, but thats bullshit. Most of what you post is opinion and speculation. And much of what you post has been disproved.

Nothing I have said is presented as an argument. I have stated facts, they are irrefutable and supported. When I say that removing the interrogation techniques which have prevented at least 27 terror attacks from happening, will certainly result in terror attacks happening, that is simply a statement of common sense and reality. It's not an argument, it's not debatable, it is a fact of what the results will be, not a speculation, a fact. What YOU are presenting is an argument for your opinion to the contrary, and it is stupid beyond belief.

That you claim waterboarding is not torture shows your ignorance on the subject. That you claim we have not tortured anyone (actually you said "I do not believe we have tortured anyone") shows your inability to accept the truth. That you think allowing our intell people to torture people is the ONLY way we will prevent another attack shows that you are either misguided or naive.

Waterboarding is not torture. It is unpleasant, it is uncomfortable, it is not desirable, but it has proven to get results. I gave an example of this, and there is no telling how many lives it saved. Torture is shoving bamboo shoots under the fingernails, like the North Koreans did to our POW's during the Korean War. Playing loud music is not torture, it is unpleasant, it is uncomfortable, it is annoying, but it's not torture. Turning up the air conditioner is not torture, it is unpleasant, uncomfortable, but it's not torture. YOU are the one who has proven not to have an understanding of the truth.

I understand we are at war. I also understand that if you are willing to throw away your principles because of this threat, you will throw them away for almost any reason. If you think its ok to torture people who may be innocent, then you are as bad as those we are fighting against.

Again, if we were shoving bamboo shoots under the fingernails of alQaeda detainee's, I would agree we were torturing people, but that is not the case here. You have completely mis-characterized torture, and confused it with coerced interrogation. These measures were never implemented on random detainees, only the most high level operatives known to have crucial information, but that is not how your "team" has presented the facts. This has NOTHING to do with American Constitutional principles! It has nothing to do with throwing them away or abandoning them! These are things you say to invoke outrage and cause alarm, but that is contradicting the facts and completely dishonest.

This is not a liberal position. This is the position taken by anyone who thinks people are not subhuman simply because they are not US citizens.

Yes, it is a liberal position. I know of NO ONE who advocates treating ANY people as "subhuman" or denying them basic human rights, except for the scum terrorists you continue to defend and stand up for! Enemy combatants, alQaeda detainees, are NOT US CITIZENS! They do NOT have US Constitutional protections of US CITIZENS! They are ENEMIES of the Constitution! They want to DESTROY the Constitution, along with the "rights" it protects!

And my quote is perfectly pertinant to this topic. If good men (me and people like me) do nothing, then the evil (people willing to torture people who may be innocent) will triumph. I have never said we should do nothing about the terrorists. I have just always maintained that we do not throw out the US Constitution or basic human decency in order to pursue them. (you will notice I didn't say "stop them", because even throwing out the US Constitution and basic human decency will not allow us to completely stop them)

If good men (people like me AND you) do nothing, then the evil (people who chop off heads of others) will triumph!

Now, you claim that, because of the election, it is no longer an argument over who is correct or incorrect?? What sort of bullshit is that? Does what is right and wrong change because of an election??

There is no argument! Your side won! You will have no coercive terrorist interrogation any more! alQaeda detainees will be given Constitutional rights, an ACLU lawyer, and a hot cup of coffee and a warm bed! It doesn't matter if that is the right or wrong thing to do, it is what is going to happen now. So, there is no argument anymore. You are still operating in pre-election mode, trying to make an argument for your case, but it has been decided already. I am simply stating what is going to now happen as a result.

What I am saying is what is right. You do not torture people. That is simply the wrong thing to do. I see that you think there is justification for it. But it is wrong, and the end does not justify the means.

What you are saying is stupid, and I have illustrated why. Again, we have not tortured anyone, but whatever you want to call what we were doing, we are no longer going to be doing it! You obviously think it is wrong, that is why we are doing it differently now! I personally think, if it saved American lives, it wasn't the wrong thing to do. When we are attacked again, I guess the people can decide whether your idea was better.

I was loudly arguing against torture when the Bush administration was doing it. The fact that the powerful people ok'd it did not change anything in my mind.

Yes, you've been consistently stupid. Point taken!

You see Dixie, you are trying to approach this as a political situation. I am approaching it as a matter of humanity. I will not compromise my principles or my beliefs because of a change in leadership or the threat of attack.

You, on the other hand......well......

Nope, I am not approaching this as a political situation. I am approaching it as reality of life and what can be expected as the result of our actions. Nothing more. You are approaching it as a political situation, admitting that you are attempting to persuade the "undecided" to support your political viewpoint.

 

[Cancel3]

You keep acting like they only made the detainees uncomfortable. They didn't have them sit in poorly designed chairs. They used torture. That they did not use the most brutal means of torture does not mean they did not torture them.

Waterboarding is a litte more than unpleasant and uncomfortable. When the CIA interrogators underwent waterboarding themselves, they lasted an average of 14 seconds. I think most CIA agents can withstand bamboo shoots under their fingernails for longer than 14 seconds.

They also have documented cases of having the detainees stand naked in rooms as cold as 50 degrees for long periods of time, often dousing them with water. Now, when I train my people for cold weather dangers, I let them know that you can suffer from hypothermia with temps as high as 55 degrees.

So these detainees were held in temperatures that our government has called potentially life threatening. But its not torture, after all they didn't put bamboo shoots under their nails.





As for your not arguing and only quoting facts. You did quote facts that 27 incidents were stopped. But there is no real evidence that waterboarding was the reason all 27 incidents were discovered or stopped. In fact, according to the "experts" the evidence obtained by torture must be corroborated by other methods. And so those other methods could be used just as effectively.


And the reason I mentioned the US Constitution was the Patriot act. That was during my discussion of what I disagreed with concerning the war against terror. It was not actually part of the topic, per se.



I have never (and I defy you to back up your claims with any facts) claimed that the detainees were citizens or were deserving of any rights under the US Constitution. But torturing people is wrong, whether they are covered by the US Constitution or not. Your insistance that waterboarding is not torture ignores the fact that the CIA agents involved in the interrogation lasted an average of 14 seconds of waterboarding. And they KNEW their life was not threatened. The detainees did not.


I am not operating in pre-election mode. I am operating in the same mode I always operate in. What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong. If Obama were to try and push to limit the 2nd amendment or push for the 10 commandments to be the sole exhibit in a courthouse lobby, I would be protesting just as vehemently against that as I am against your stand here.


Just as an FYI, presenting arguments against false information (such as you have presented here) in order to help people understand, is not political. It is making sure the most people possible understand what is happening.

And I also enjoy arguing online. Thats is why I am here. Its also why you are here. Its what this website is about.




You can keep screaming the same things over and over. But you are not stating facts.

 

[Cancel3]

Found a tidbit on the HowStuffWorks website concerning waterboarding.

"Water boarding has been around for centuries. It was a common interrogation technique during the Italian Inquisition of the 1500s and was used perhaps most famously in Cambodian prisons during the reign of the Khmer Rouge regime during the 1970s (see David Corn: This Is What Waterboarding Looks Like for pictures of a Khmer Rouge water board now in a Cambodian museum)."



Now I know that you claim its not torture, but an interrogation technique that was used by the Italian Inquisition and the Khmer Rouge doesn't sound like something that is just "unpleasant".

 

[Topspin]

Dixie is embarrassing Alabama big time. Waterboardingg is not torture it's uncomfortable. Wow that was comical.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Say what you will, and I am pretty sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will agree that waterboarding is torture, but he talked... he gave us the information on numerous operatives planning numerous terror attacks, and as a result, we prevented countless innocent people from dying. If we had not waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, I seriously doubt he would have divulged the information he did, and countless innocent people would have most likely been killed in the planned terror attacks. This is not real hard, it's just plain common sense and logic. We have adopted a 'kinder gentler' policy, and waterboarding will no longer happen, so the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's of the world will not divulge information and countless innocent people will die as a result. BUT... Pinheads can rejoice, we are no longer disavowing our principles! ...Remember to tell that to the families of the victims, WHEN the next terror attack occurs.

 

[Cancel3]

Say what you will, and I am pretty sure Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will agree that waterboarding is torture, but he talked... he gave us the information on numerous operatives planning numerous terror attacks, and as a result, we prevented countless innocent people from dying. If we had not waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, I seriously doubt he would have divulged the information he did, and countless innocent people would have most likely been killed in the planned terror attacks. This is not real hard, it's just plain common sense and logic. We have adopted a 'kinder gentler' policy, and waterboarding will no longer happen, so the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's of the world will not divulge information and countless innocent people will die as a result. BUT... Pinheads can rejoice, we are no longer disavowing our principles! ...Remember to tell that to the families of the victims, WHEN the next terror attack occurs.

And there is no other way to gain information? Even the top intell people agree that other methods are more reliable.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

And there is no other way to gain information? Even the top intell people agree that other methods are more reliable.

Well of course there is another way Solitary! That's exactly what we are going to try now, another way! We are going to listen to all of these "top intell" people you keep yammering about, and give detainees complete legal representation, a warm bed and a nice hot cup of coffee, and ask them really nicely, if they wouldn't like to help us by giving us the information we need to stop the next terrorist attack. Hell, we may even get Hillary to bake them some cookies, Sol! And you know what? I bet you, just because we elected a guy with the middle name "Hussein", they will be more than willing to do the right thing and give us that information! Don't you?

 

[Cancel3]

Well of course there is another way Solitary! That's exactly what we are going to try now, another way! We are going to listen to all of these "top intell" people you keep yammering about, and give detainees complete legal representation, a warm bed and a nice hot cup of coffee, and ask them really nicely, if they wouldn't like to help us by giving us the information we need to stop the next terrorist attack. Hell, we may even get Hillary to bake them some cookies, Sol! And you know what? I bet you, just because we elected a guy with the middle name "Hussein", they will be more than willing to do the right thing and give us that information! Don't you?

So our choices for interrogation are torture or giving them a comfy bed & breakfast welcome?

LMAO


Dixie, you are one of the most sensationalistic posters on this forum. I find it hilarious. I am not laughing at the threat. I am laughing at your attempt to justify torture. Your constant ranting and constant sensationalist nonsense.

Yeah, I am sure that allowing waterboarding would allow us to stop all terrorist attacks, and disallowing it will invite constant attacks.

lol

 

[Mott the Hoople]

First of all, by wanting to educate those who are undecided, I am not cheerleading anyone, I am spreading facts.

Second of all, yes you certainly are arguing, just like everyone else. You want to claim that you are stating facts and the others are arguing, but thats bullshit. Most of what you post is opinion and speculation. And much of what you post has been disproved. That you claim waterboarding is not torture shows your ignorance on the subject. That you claim we have not tortured anyone (actually you said "I do not believe we have tortured anyone") shows your inability to accept the truth. That you think allowing our intell people to torture people is the ONLY way we will prevent another attack shows that you are either misguided or naive.

I understand we are at war. I also understand that if you are willing to throw away your principles because of this threat, you will throw them away for almost any reason. If you think its ok to torture people who may be innocent, then you are as bad as those we are fighting against.

This is not a liberal position. This is the position taken by anyone who thinks people are not subhuman simply because they are not US citizens.

And my quote is perfectly pertinant to this topic. If good men (me and people like me) do nothing, then the evil (people willing to torture people who may be innocent) will triumph. I have never said we should do nothing about the terrorists. I have just always maintained that we do not throw out the US Constitution or basic human decency in order to pursue them. (you will notice I didn't say "stop them", because even throwing out the US Constitution and basic human decency will not allow us to completely stop them)

Now, you claim that, because of the election, it is no longer an argument over who is correct or incorrect?? What sort of bullshit is that? Does what is right and wrong change because of an election??

What I am saying is what is right. You do not torture people. That is simply the wrong thing to do. I see that you think there is justification for it. But it is wrong, and the end does not justify the means.

I was loudly arguing against torture when the Bush administration was doing it. The fact that the powerful people ok'd it did not change anything in my mind.






You see Dixie, you are trying to approach this as a political situation. I am approaching it as a matter of humanity. I will not compromise my principles or my beliefs because of a change in leadership or the threat of attack.

You, on the other hand......well......

Bravo Sol! Outstanding retort! It was concise, lucid, articulate and right. Good job!