about that reverse discrimination thing

[blackascoal]

LMAO... it is not a false argument brother.... IT IS THE FRIGGIN POINT....

You dont hear white guys complain because it would denigrate the sport to accept lower quality players simply to make some quota that reflects the make up of our country's pigmentation differences.

Which is the whole point on the firefighters. If they are qualified AND still not getting promotions, that is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. But if you have a situation like this one where those qualified for promotions are tossed aside because their pigmentation make up wasn't 'suitable'..... that is bullshit.

"You don't hear white guys complain because it would denigrate the sport"

Give me a fucking break.

They don't complain because sport .. real sport .. is easily qualified. They don't complain because they don't have the skills .. just as you don't hear blacks complaining about the NHL.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

"You don't hear white guys complain because it would denigrate the sport"

Give me a fucking break.

They don't complain because sport .. real sport .. is easily qualified. They don't complain because they don't have the skills .. just as you don't hear blacks complaining about the NHL.

then we're really talking about apples and oranges again, sports over firefighting qualifications. two different things, so how does your analogy apply again?

 

[Damocles]

"You don't hear white guys complain because it would denigrate the sport"

Give me a fucking break.

They don't complain because sport .. real sport .. is easily qualified. They don't complain because they don't have the skills .. just as you don't hear blacks complaining about the NHL.

Which is what he stated.

In this case people with the skills were rejected because they didn't have the correct genetic makeup.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"You don't hear white guys complain because it would denigrate the sport"

Give me a fucking break.

They don't complain because sport .. real sport .. is easily qualified. They don't complain because they don't have the skills .. just as you don't hear blacks complaining about the NHL.

THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING.... it is the SAME for the firefighters. Unless you can show that the actual exam they took is somehow racially biased....

As I said, it would denigrate the sport if you accepted less qualified athletes due to their pigmentation. Just as any job would be denigrated if you toss out more qualified individuals due to their pigmentation.

 

[blackascoal]

This very story shows that they are tossing out test scores (which they previously had used to qualify advancements) because not enough of the black firefighters were ready to be promoted (based on scores).

Again, if you have two equally qualified individuals and you choose to give the nod to a 'minority' or woman due to the past in this country.... I'll support that all day long. But when a quota system comes into place or when someone says 'it needs to reflect the community'... that bullshit has to stop.

There are indeed problems with quota systems. I will admit that.

However, there is value in making government departments reflective of the communities thay serve .. and I can think of no other department where that argument is stronger than with police departments.

Using your own valid argument of equally qualified individuals, how comfortable do you think white communities would be if blacks were over-represented in their civil sevice departments no matter how "qualified" they may be? You may agree it would be valid, but I guarantee that community would not.

Quotas are difficult, but a reflective society is in the best interests of the whole .. in my opinion brother.

 

[blackascoal]

THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING.... it is the SAME for the firefighters. Unless you can show that the actual exam they took is somehow racially biased....

As I said, it would denigrate the sport if you accepted less qualified athletes due to their pigmentation. Just as any job would be denigrated if you toss out more qualified individuals due to their pigmentation.

If you can demonstrate that services have diminshed I'll agree with your argument.

Some athletes come out of school with more noteriety, come from better schools and programs, coached by great coaches .. doesn't mean that athlete will perform better in the pros than athletes of lessor qulifications.

Better test scores may not necessarily mean that candidate is going to perform better in the job .. and in jobs as intensive as fire-fighters, any deficiencies should show up pretty quickly.

That being said, I understand the point you're trying to make and I concede that your argument has some validity to it .. although I don't agree with it.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

If you can demonstrate that services have diminshed I'll agree with your argument.

Some athletes come out of school with more noteriety, come from better schools and programs, coached by great coaches .. doesn't mean that athlete will perform better in the pros than athletes of lessor qulifications.

Better test scores may not necessarily mean that candidate is going to perform better in the job .. and in jobs as intensive as fire-fighters, any deficiencies should show up pretty quickly.

That being said, I understand the point you're trying to make and I concede that your argument has some validity to it .. although I don't agree with it.

you are smarter than this.... when a fire department scraps ALL those who qualify for advancement simply due to the fact that none of the qualified were black... that denigrates the force. They take qualified people and say...'you cannot be promoted'.

Your rambling on about the athletes is a moot point. An athletes 'qualifications' are not determined by what school he went to, who he was coached by etc.... they are determined by his athleticism, drive, and over all abilities.

Obviously we have seen numerous examples of Ivy league MBA's/Lawyers prove that a school is not what makes a person qualified.

 

[blackascoal]

you are smarter than this.... when a fire department scraps ALL those who qualify for advancement simply due to the fact that none of the qualified were black... that denigrates the force. They take qualified people and say...'you cannot be promoted'.

Your rambling on about the athletes is a moot point. An athletes 'qualifications' are not determined by what school he went to, who he was coached by etc.... they are determined by his athleticism, drive, and over all abilities.

Obviously we have seen numerous examples of Ivy league MBA's/Lawyers prove that a school is not what makes a person qualified.

We are never going to agree on this issue.

Why would I want to be a fire-fighter in a department that has all white guys in leadership?

Why should the community respect any department that has even the appearance of discrimination?

There are more questions to this issue than qualifications on paper.

We are never going to agree on this issue even though I understand your argument on this specific point of quotas.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

We are never going to agree on this issue.

Why would I want to be a fire-fighter in a department that has all white guys in leadership?

Why should the community respect any department that has even the appearance of discrimination?

There are more questions to this issue than qualifications on paper.

We are never going to agree on this issue even though I understand your argument on this specific point of quotas.

do you think that the fire department should remain understaffed because they can't fill a leadership position with a black individual, not because a black individual didn't qualify, but because a black individual didn't apply?

 

[Damocles]

We are never going to agree on this issue.

Why would I want to be a fire-fighter in a department that has all white guys in leadership?

Why should the community respect any department that has even the appearance of discrimination?

There are more questions to this issue than qualifications on paper.

We are never going to agree on this issue even though I understand your argument on this specific point of quotas.

So, your assumption is there is no black person that would ever be as qualified as these people and that there never has been any? I'd be right there marching with you when the qualified person is overlooked because of pigmentation. It is unjustified in whatever direction such discrimination takes.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

There are indeed problems with quota systems. I will admit that.

However, there is value in making government departments reflective of the communities thay serve .. and I can think of no other department where that argument is stronger than with police departments.

Using your own valid argument of equally qualified individuals, how comfortable do you think white communities would be if blacks were over-represented in their civil sevice departments no matter how "qualified" they may be? You may agree it would be valid, but I guarantee that community would not.

Quotas are difficult, but a reflective society is in the best interests of the whole .. in my opinion brother.

I personally want the best qualified people in the jobs. If that means a 100% African American police department, I am perfectly fine with that. Granted, that would go over here a hell of a lot easier than it would in the south. Outside of the south, I do not think many white communities would have a problem with it.

In an ideal situation they would be reflective of society WITH the most qualified individuals getting the jobs. But if that was not the case... which would you give up? The reflection or the qualification? You seem to be suggesting that the reflection is more important. That is where we disagree.

I agree quotas are difficult... and it is one of the reasons I am opposed to them.

 

[blackascoal]

do you think that the fire department should remain understaffed because they can't fill a leadership position with a black individual, not because a black individual didn't qualify, but because a black individual didn't apply?

Again. my questions go to "qualify", but I do not believe any department should go lacking or suffer from not filling needed positions with AA candidates.

But I also believe it should be more than just white guys making that determination.

 

[blackascoal]

I personally want the best qualified people in the jobs. If that means a 100% African American police department, I am perfectly fine with that. Granted, that would go over here a hell of a lot easier than it would in the south. Outside of the south, I do not think many white communities would have a problem with it.

In an ideal situation they would be reflective of society WITH the most qualified individuals getting the jobs. But if that was not the case... which would you give up? The reflection or the qualification? You seem to be suggesting that the reflection is more important. That is where we disagree.

I agree quotas are difficult... and it is one of the reasons I am opposed to them.

I believe you when you say a 100% African-American police department would not bother you, but it most certainly would be problematic in more white communities than just the South. I'm from Michigan and I guarantee it would be a HUGE issue in most white communities there.

No one is making the argument that communities in Idaho should have more black representation or against Idaho communities having representation reflective of their communities. The problem comes when departments are not reflective of their communities and seem more reflective of a racist system.. which still exists today.

That department becomes dysfunctional and disconnected from the people they serve. It hurts recruitment and inhibits many of the best and brightest from ever applying.

There is much more to consider than paper qualifications my brother.

 

[DamnYankee]

There are indeed problems with quota systems. I will admit that.

However, there is value in making government departments reflective of the communities thay serve .. and I can think of no other department where that argument is stronger than with police departments.

Using your own valid argument of equally qualified individuals, how comfortable do you think white communities would be if blacks were over-represented in their civil sevice departments no matter how "qualified" they may be? You may agree it would be valid, but I guarantee that community would not.

Quotas are difficult, but a reflective society is in the best interests of the whole .. in my opinion brother.

I'd rather see black communities work to keep their families intact, thus more black kids develop to the same level as whites, than lower expectations for the black kids. But that's just me, apparently.

Why would you want to lower expectations for blacks?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I believe you when you say a 100% African-American police department would not bother you, but it most certainly would be problematic in more white communities than just the South. I'm from Michigan and I guarantee it would be a HUGE issue in most white communities there.

No one is making the argument that communities in Idaho should have more black representation or against Idaho communities having representation reflective of their communities. The problem comes when departments are not reflective of their communities and seem more reflective of a racist system.. which still exists today.

That department becomes dysfunctional and disconnected from the people they serve. It hurts recruitment and inhibits many of the best and brightest from ever applying.

There is much more to consider than paper qualifications my brother.

I won't pretend that I know for sure how communities would react outside of my area... though I will say I would be negatively surprised by any adverse reaction. I would have thought we were beyond ignorant petty shit like that in most of the country.

I guess in the end it really does come down to the point you just made... is the 'lack of reflection' due to underlying racism... or is it due to qualifications. The former is obviously inexcusable and has the effects you described (not to mention the distrust that develops) The latter is something that needs to be rectified by determining WHY they weren't qualified and working to improve their qualifications.

In the case of an intitial job, you are correct, it is certainly more than just whats on paper. But in the case of a promotion from WITHIN, it is about the 'test' (when applicable), past job performance, peer reviews, supervisor reviews etc...

 

[blackascoal]

I'd rather see black communities work to keep their families intact, thus more black kids develop to the same level as whites, than lower expectations for the black kids. But that's just me, apparently.

Why would you want to lower expectations for blacks?

As usual, you don't have a clue what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[blackascoal]

I won't pretend that I know for sure how communities would react outside of my area... though I will say I would be negatively surprised by any adverse reaction. I would have thought we were beyond ignorant petty shit like that in most of the country.

I guess in the end it really does come down to the point you just made... is the 'lack of reflection' due to underlying racism... or is it due to qualifications. The former is obviously inexcusable and has the effects you described (not to mention the distrust that develops) The latter is something that needs to be rectified by determining WHY they weren't qualified and working to improve their qualifications.

In the case of an intitial job, you are correct, it is certainly more than just whats on paper. But in the case of a promotion from WITHIN, it is about the 'test' (when applicable), past job performance, peer reviews, supervisor reviews etc...

Trust me brother, Michigan would explode with majority black officers in white communities. The reality is that we are not beyond the petty shit, which is why programs like AA are absolutely necessary.

The best example I can give of a reflective community is the military .. perhaps the most non-racial element of our society. Racism was once glaringly apparent in the military, but through affirmative action programs of their own, the military no longer casts the shadow of racism, which was important if the mission and function of the military was to be believed.

Today the military is almost an escape from the racism that still exists in our mainstream society and it no longer needs programs to promote balance and fairness for blacks in the military and that will one day also be true of women and gays.

Balance is good for our society my brother, and although it is often difficult getting there, we're Americans. We can accomplish anything we set our minds to do.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Trust me brother, Michigan would explode with majority black officers in white communities. The reality is that we are not beyond the petty shit, which is why programs like AA are absolutely necessary.

The best example I can give of a reflective community is the military .. perhaps the most non-racial element of our society. Racism was once glaringly apparent in the military, but through affirmative action programs of their own, the military no longer casts the shadow of racism, which was important if the mission and function of the military was to be believed.

Today the military is almost an escape from the racism that still exists in our mainstream society and it no longer needs programs to promote balance and fairness for blacks in the military and that will one day also be true of women and gays.

Balance is good for our society my brother, and although it is often difficult getting there, we're Americans. We can accomplish anything we set our minds to do.

I agree that balance is good... just so long as we don't cut off a leg and proclaim it was done for balance. Obviously we see things from different perspectives. Being the single white guy, I am not as exposed to the intolerance to the extent that you are. From the viewpoint of where I live, Colorado is pretty open minded relative to what you describe in MI and what I perceive from the South to a large degree.

Having not served in the military, I would be curious... is it more reflective of the whole because they fought to end racist practices which made it more welcoming or because they tried to force it to be more reflective? Just asking, I do not know. A good question for the other posters on here that have served or perhaps for your daughter as well given that she may have a fresh perspective.

 

[Sammy Jankis]

The reality is that we are not beyond the petty shit, which is why programs like AA are absolutely necessary.

It's sad you think racial discrimination is a great tool of justice. Please re-assess your moral standards. Thanks.

 

[blackascoal]

I agree that balance is good... just so long as we don't cut off a leg and proclaim it was done for balance. Obviously we see things from different perspectives. Being the single white guy, I am not as exposed to the intolerance to the extent that you are. From the viewpoint of where I live, Colorado is pretty open minded relative to what you describe in MI and what I perceive from the South to a large degree.

Having not served in the military, I would be curious... is it more reflective of the whole because they fought to end racist practices which made it more welcoming or because they tried to force it to be more reflective? Just asking, I do not know. A good question for the other posters on here that have served or perhaps for your daughter as well given that she may have a fresh perspective.

Interesting the quality of conversation people can have once they get beyond the rancor .. which I have been guilty of on this issue, and for which I apologize.

The military overcame it's racist past by actively and aggressively working to change it by not only eliminating racist practices, but also by reaching out to minorities and ensuring the integrity of their image.

I think I may understand your perspective better now by just knowing you're from Colorado. I give much kudos to Colorado and the people there as they have shown themselves to be one of the most progressive places in the country in regards to race relations. I remember when Rice was the mayor of Denver even though the black population in Denver is relatively small.

It's also my understanding the the leaders of the state House and Senate are both black.

I believe that Denver might well be OK with a majority black police force.