AProudLefty
The remora of JPP
Point it out.
Abortion
- Thread starter Scott
- Start date
IBDaMann
Well-known member
AProudLefty
The remora of JPP
IBDaMann
Well-known member
I understand you having difficulty seeing the brain in the particular image you have available, but I found a higher resolution version of that image and if you look carefully, you should be able to see the brain in the upper half of the cell.
Scott
Verified User
I understand you having difficulty seeing the brain in the particular image you have available, but I found a higher resolution version of that image and if you look carefully, you should be able to see the brain in the upper half of the cell.
Can you link to the source of that photo? Barring it being photoshopped, it certainly does look like a brain. That being said, this doesn't change the fact that humans are hardly the only species to have brains. This fact doesn't change the fact that humanity eats a lot of those other species. What I'm getting at is that humans in general don't view having a brain as cause for treating an animal is sacrosanct, and when all is said and done, we too are animals. We tend to value the -intelligence- of brains far more than simply having one.
Along that vein, most of the brain's development happens -after- a child is born:
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Neural Growth in Infancy
Neural growth in infancy is remarkable. At birth, an infant's brain is about 25% of the size of an adult brain. By age two, it reaches about 80% of adult size.**
Source:
Scott
Verified User
I'm sure you know the difference between a word and a sentence.
If I specify that a living human is any stage of human development between sperms and eggs and elderly citizens, do you think that no one can understand my definition? We can all define words related to our discussion on abortion however we like, but if we can't agree on the definitions, I doubt we'll ever reach agreement on abortion itself.
Scott
Verified User
Agreed.
I'm not so sure. I think the prime issue should be 2 things- bodily independence and relative intelligence. I don't believe that females should be forced to be fertilized egg growers.
For the first, If the government offered pregnant females the option of transferring their fertilized eggs over to some machine and take responsibility of taking care of the human baby once it was born, I suspect that many pregnant females looking to have an abortion might well take them up on the offer. I doubt it'll happen any time soon though- I'm not even sure if it's possible, but even if it was, I suspect the expense would be astronomical.
The second has to do with relative intelligence- I'm willing to believe that a fertilized egg can have a very basic brain at a very early stage, but having a very basic brain doesn't mean much- put another way, most animal life forms have brains, but that doesn't mean that humanity doesn't eat most of those life forms. What's far more important than simply having a brain is how intelligent it is. As I just mentioned to IBDaMann, most of the brain's growth happens after birth, not before. Quoting what I quoted to him:
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Neural growth in infancy is remarkable. At birth, an infant's brain is about 25% of the size of an adult brain. By age two, it reaches about 80% of adult size.
**
Source:
https://physicscore.com/articles/human-brain-development-by-age/
Scott
Verified User
Here is the proper wording [snip]Looking at what I said above, I think I wasn't as clear as I would have liked to be, though the word "perhaps" offers a big clue as to what I meant. It seems clear to me that society as a whole is less approving of abortion the closer a fetus gets to actually being born. I think this is reasonable, but it ofcourse leaves the possibility that a fetus should be considered a natural person at a certain point in time prior to birth. What that point in time should be is definitely not clear. What I can say is that most abortions are carried out fairly early on in the U.S.:
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- Most abortions occur in the first trimester. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) data for 2021 show that 81% of US abortions took place at or before nine weeks’ gestation and an additional 13% were at 10–13 weeks.
Source:
10 Points to Consider When Engaging with Policy Debates Around Abortion
www.guttmacher.org
No, that's -your- wording. I think it's safe to say that most people who support a female's right to choose an abortion wouldn't agree with it.
Scott
Verified User
No, we haven't. Perhaps most importantly, though, 'living human' is not a term I've been able to find in either any dictionary or encyclopedia. The closest term I -have- been able to find is "natural person". -That- term does exclude sperms and eggs before being joined, but whether fertilized eggs qualify as natural persons and at what stage is contested. For those in the audience who may not be aware of the term and its meaning in relation to fetuses:
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Natural Person and Fetal Rights
The issue of whether an unborn fetus is considered a natural person, with all of the rights and protections associated with that status, has been a hot-button issue for a very long time. In the U.S., this issue is commonly referred to as “fetal rights,” and deals with not only issues of right to life (anti-abortion), but with protections related to the health and safety of the child from conception to birth. This is a complicated issue, with some people attempting to place a fetal age at which the baby can be considered “viable,” or alive; and others claiming that the baby has a right to life and protection from the moment of conception.**
Souce:
Natural Person - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes
Natural Person defined and explained with examples. Natural Person is a living human being, with certain rights and responsibilities under the law.
legaldictionary.net
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Your link to that image is yours truly. I made it as a joke in GIMP; AProudLefty's annoying posts put me in that kind of mood. Zygotes don't come with fully developed adult brains. It's a kind of anachronism. Feel free to download the image and share it if you like.
This fact does not change the fact that sharks eat a lot of those other species.
I would remind you that brain/consciousness/sentience is AProudLefty's irrelevant red herring.
Along that vein, the most crucial brain development happens prior to a child's birth.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Gotcha! Your weaseling, to date, has been that you can't find "living human" defined anywhere when you are supposed to be reading the individual words, which I defined individually.
Ergo, drop the "I can't find 'living human' in any dictionary" crap. You can find "living" and you can find "human" in every source.
Not unless you includ the urine stage, the feces stage, the spit stage, the pus stage, and every other secretion of the human body ... so that your definition can be laughed out of court.
You're being totally dishonest. It has already been explained to you that sperm and eggs cannot be life stages of any human. Now you are rejecting logic as though it is somehow a subjective matter of opinion.
Look, if the DNA differs, it's not the same individual/thing. There are no life stages prior to one's existence. Sorry.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Yes, we have. Move along. You don't get to claim life stages prior to one's existence. If the DNA differs, they are different.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Freddy Figbottom
Was it me?
Freddy Figbottom
Was it me?
"we're all to blame", the most famous excuse of career criminals.
Freddy Figbottom
Was it me?
start talking like a real person, quit word gaming, stop being a fucking idiot, stop killing babies.Looking at what I said above, I think I wasn't as clear as I would have liked to be, though the word "perhaps" offers a big clue as to what I meant. It seems clear to me that society as a whole is less approving of abortion the closer a fetus gets to actually being born. I think this is reasonable, but it ofcourse leaves the possibility that a fetus should be considered a natural person at a certain point in time prior to birth. What that point in time should be is definitely not clear. What I can say is that most abortions are carried out fairly early on in the U.S.:
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- Most abortions occur in the first trimester. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) data for 2021 show that 81% of US abortions took place at or before nine weeks’ gestation and an additional 13% were at 10–13 weeks.
Source:
10 Points to Consider When Engaging with Policy Debates Around Abortion
yes comma splice errors, now go suck it.
Scott
Verified User
I agree that you didn't request my judgement. I made the statement only to make it clear to you or anyone else reading my statement that I had my doubts about the veracity of your assertion, and also thought I'd add my own personal experience regarding people asking my questions repeatedly. For the audience, here's what I said after my "reserve judgement" statement:
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Based on what I recall, it seems that both the left and the right ask questions that have already been answered. To be fair, I think at times they aren't actually -aware- of the fact that the question has already been answered. I have been known to repeatedly answer some questions, though there are limits to just how many times I'll answer the same question.
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