A Quick Update on "Climate Gate" Comedy: Denialist Follies, Part Trois

It's not plausible that you, Tinfoil, and Dixie have uncovered a massive conspiracy, or demonstrated that IPCC is fraudulent. The world's best scientific minds and organizations would have sniffed out fraud and deception long before some message board hacks and rightwing blogs did. Why hasn't the US. National Research Council, the National Academy of Sciences, or NASA been able to penetrate the conspiracies, and scientific fraud that you, tinfoil, dixie, bravo, and superfreak have allegedly rooted out?

What your asking me to buy is preposterous. And I think you actually know it.
Right, that's why people use other sources. My point wasn't that he was "right" or "wrong" just that Wiki wasn't the source. In your desperate attempt to attack the messenger you missed the target.

I'll continue to go with Jones, the debate is far from over. Unlike Theories of science, this one has yet to be settled. The attempt to assign it perfection and absoluteness that doesn't exist is extant only in political debate, even the scientists themselves say that this isn't a sure thing. Even, sometimes, the most important scientists in the field. That isn't something that deserves the title of Theory, it is something that is a good hypothesis that needs far more testing before we base draconian government restrictions on it.

Because of that, we need to find other reasons to clean up our act, ones that don't amount to making our lives suck to "save the planet" from man. Clean water is good, clean air is good. We should work towards emission-less energy, not because we're sure we're going to save the planet, but because it will be better for us. We should do this in a way that isn't designed to create false need or to bankrupt us, in ways that doesn't cut off our nose to spite our face like creating lightbulbs that use less energy but poison us at the same time because most people won't know or find out about the ways to "properly dispose" of them.
 
Right, that's why people use other sources. My point wasn't that he was "right" or "wrong" just that Wiki wasn't the source. In your desperate attempt to attack the messenger you missed the target.

I'll continue to go with Jones, the debate is far from over. Unlike Theories of science, this one has yet to be settled. The attempt to assign it perfection and absoluteness that doesn't exist is extant only in political debate, even the scientists themselves say that this isn't a sure thing. Even, sometimes, the most important scientists in the field. That isn't something that deserves the title of Theory, it is something that is a good hypothesis that needs far more testing before we base draconian government restrictions on it.

Because of that, we need to find other reasons to clean up our act, ones that don't amount to making our lives suck to "save the planet" from man. Clean water is good, clean air is good. We should work towards emission-less energy, not because we're sure we're going to save the planet, but because it will be better for us. We should do this in a way that isn't designed to create false need or to bankrupt us.
Damo, you're kind of stating the obvious. All science is tentative and is never "settled" with absolute certainty. By "settled" Cypress means, that it is the generally accepted understanding of the scientific community. No one is saying or even implying that the scientific debate is "over" let alone the political one given it's ramifications. Cypress is stating that anthropogenic climate change has been accepted, in general, by the scientific community. That is a factual statement.

I do find an interesting parrallel with the ID Creationist crowd and the climate denier folks in that they appear to be using a lot of the same flawed logic in their arguments.

But here's what's really silly. When someone starts prattling about some left wing liberal agenda coming out of climate research I just want to roll my eyes in exasperation. Cypress is right, that's just serious comedy. I mean anyone who works in science knows that getting any two scientist in a given discipline to agree on anything is about as rare as hens teeth so when they do agree, to the degree that there is on the topic of anthropogenic climate change, one should give that serious merit. Not some laughable conspiracy theory.

Though again, and let me stress this, that has nothing to do with the tentative nature of this research or any scientific research for that matter.
 
Damo, you're kind of stating the obvious. All science is tentative and is never "settled" with absolute certainty. By "settled" Cypress means, that it is the generally accepted understanding of the scientific community. No one is saying or even implying that the scientific debate is "over" let alone the political one given it's ramifications. Cypress is stating that anthropogenic climate change has been accepted, in general, by the scientific community. That is a factual statement.

I do find an interesting parrallel with the ID Creationist crowd and the climate denier folks in that they appear to be using a lot of the same flawed logic in their arguments.

But here's what's really silly. When someone starts prattling about some left wing liberal agenda coming out of climate research I just want to roll my eyes in exasperation. Cypress is right, that's just serious comedy. I mean anyone who works in science knows that getting any two scientist in a given discipline to agree on anything is about as rare as hens teeth so when they do agree, to the degree that there is on the topic of anthropogenic climate change, one should give that serious merit. Not some laughable conspiracy theory.

Though again, and let me stress this, that has nothing to do with the tentative nature of this research or any scientific research for that matter.
Not really, Theory in science is a level a bit above "tenuous" and "debate far from over". And I obviously did give it some consideration, I even called it a good hypothesis that needs some solid testing before we started issuing draconian sanctions on our own economy. The reality is, there are good reasons other than this to make some changes to how we regularly do things. If you argued on those reasons you'd likely get some cooperation rather than people constantly fighting it.
 
Wow, this dude's mind works in strange ways.

His view is that fraud could never happen simply because the "best scientific minds" WOULD have found it.

LOL that's muther fucking nuts!!
Have you ever performed scientific research? Ever had your results published? Obviously not or you wouldn't make such a scientifically illiterate statement. You obviously don't have a clue how the scientific method works.
 
Damo, you're kind of stating the obvious. All science is tentative and is never "settled" with absolute certainty. By "settled" Cypress means, that it is the generally accepted understanding of the scientific community. No one is saying or even implying that the scientific debate is "over" let alone the political one given it's ramifications. Cypress is stating that anthropogenic climate change has been accepted, in general, by the scientific community. That is a factual statement.

I do find an interesting parrallel with the ID Creationist crowd and the climate denier folks in that they appear to be using a lot of the same flawed logic in their arguments.

But here's what's really silly. When someone starts prattling about some left wing liberal agenda coming out of climate research I just want to roll my eyes in exasperation. Cypress is right, that's just serious comedy. I mean anyone who works in science knows that getting any two scientist in a given discipline to agree on anything is about as rare as hens teeth so when they do agree, to the degree that there is on the topic of anthropogenic climate change, one should give that serious merit. Not some laughable conspiracy theory.

Though again, and let me stress this, that has nothing to do with the tentative nature of this research or any scientific research for that matter.

1) you are incorrect.... Cypress states that it Scientifically FACTUAL... it is NOT

2) you are incorrect.... it most certainly ISN'T accepted in general by the scientific community... no matter how many times you ignore Scientists that disagree with the fear mongers... it doesn't change the fact that they are there and that they are correct. No matter how many times you ignore the flaws in the 'studies' pumped out by those who benefit directly from AGW being true.

3) Let me guess... you are going to ignore all the links I posted to Scientists who disagree and provide the valid rationale for doing so?
 
Mott, is it good science to have those who have already concluded and make their living off of the same conclusions "review" papers? Is it good science to have people who actually co-author the paper to "review" the papers? Is it good science to say that work is peer-reviewed when even the scientist who published the work says that the data cannot be verified as he cannot recreate the data?

None of that is good science and you know it isn't.

While my work is in applied science (being an engineer), even I can fully understand that none of those things are good scientific practice.
 
I like how cypress ignores the build up of IPCC errors and deceptions. The fricken used WWF proganda and called it peer reviewed. Imagine the intelligent design proponents using christian organizations to study evolution. Everyone would laugh at their conclusions simply because they are naturally biased and their work on the subject could be expected to reveal the bias.

When IPCC science is picked apart, we find misuse of statistics.

When we criticise the Mann, Briffa, Jones, et al, it's for the misuse of stats and the graphical representation of the "unprecedented" warming trend. Pure statistical manipulation and it's been shown through analysis where the problem lies.

Ctpress can ignore it while shouting from the mountain tops. Who cares what he thinks when he ignores the problems with his precious authority on science?

It's the UN for crying out loud! When have they ever not been involved in a scandal?
 
Have you ever performed scientific research? Ever had your results published? Obviously not or you wouldn't make such a scientifically illiterate statement. You obviously don't have a clue how the scientific method works.
Fucvk off, loser. Sick of your shit. I've posted the link in this thread. You've ignored it. I don't have to publish science to understand science.

Where's your climate work? Show us your peer reviewed work, dickhead. You have no right to an opinion by your own rules. You have no basis to comment on anything I might post because you are not an expert.
 
http://multi-science.metapress.com/content/b277x817wj021671/
Abstract

The climatic "hockey stick" hypothesis has systemic problems. I review how the IPCC came to adopt the "hockey stick" as scientific evidence of human interference with the climate. I report also on independent peer reviewed studies of the "hockey stick" that were instigated by the US House of Representatives in 2006, and which comprehensively invalidated it. The "divergence" problem and the selective and unreliable nature of tree-ring reconstructions are discussed, as is the unsatisfactory review process of the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report that ignored the invalidation of the "hockey stick". The error found recently in the GISS temperature series is also noted. It is concluded that the IPCC has neither the structure nor the necessary independence and supervision of its processes to be acceptable as the monopoly authority on climate science. Suggestions are made as to how the IPCC could improve its procedures towards producing reports and recommendations that are more scientifically sound.
 
No to none of that. However that doesn't make you science deniars right. I mean Cypress does have a valid point. Your argument has a serious credibility gap. He's naming some of the most prestigious scientific organizations in the world who support the conclusion of anthropogenic climage change. You're quoting a couple of cranks, some right wing blogs and a number of political op-ed pieces. You arguments are very unconvincing to anyone with scientific credentials. Particulary someone with post graduate credentials like Cypress and Thorn.

My argument to you, as a person who admits that they are not well read on this topic is, convince me. Show me the current peer reviewed data that supports your contention. Line your ducks up.

Still nothing from Mott... once again lowering himself to Cypress like tactics of pretending I just posted from right wing blogs or political op ed pieces.

Tell us MOTT.... again... try not to duck the question this time....

1) Tell us Mott... WHY is it that they are trying so desperately to STOP calling it AGW and are now focused on calling it climate change? Why the shift Mott? (and yes, I do take note of the fact that YOU too are now calling it "anthropogenic climage change"... what happened to AGW Mott????)

If man is causing warming... why the shift? Surely man isn't causing warming AND cooling periods due to emissions of green house gasses....

2) Tell us Mott... are you going to ignore the letter to the UN by 100 Scientists that disagree with their assessment? are you going to ignore the 50 page report I posted? (or are you just going to dismiss it as a right wing blog to avoid having to ACTUALLY DISCUSS the issue)

3) Tell us Mott... are you going to continue to ignore what I posted on the reliability of station data? on the vast areas they extrapolate the data vs. the data they get from well covered regions? on the hypocrisy of using 'unreliable data' NOW, while ignoring it when it doesn't fit their preconceived results?
 
Alrightie then...lets take a look at some of your "References":

#5-8...ALL OPINION PIECES

#10...an article from a DECADE ago...got anything more recent?

#11-12...MORE opinion pieces...

#23...listed as a "letter to the editor"...click it and it says "404 Not Found" GOOD SOURCE!

#25...NEWSMAX! No BIAS there, eh?

#32...from the NCPA,,,just another RightWing Propaganda Arm!

#60...Opinion piece from the CATO Institute...another RightWing Organization.

HELL...half the "references" cite one of two guys as their source...William Happer or Tim Ball...

...so yeah, Wikipedia is still pretty unreliable..but you just keep on using them...it does make my job easier.

They didn't detail squat. They just repeated "It's wiki" and ignored the sourcing.


REALLY!?!

"Didn't detail squat"?

You did see where I checked out the "sources"?

Damo...reduced to bald faced lies...it's sad really.
 
From the Wiki site.... Good old leg humping Cypress pretends that all of the source material is 'prior to 2001/outdated/written by old people'....

# David Legates, associate professor of geography and director of the Center for Climatic Research, University of Delaware: "About half of the warming during the 20th century occurred prior to the 1940s, and natural variability accounts for all or nearly all of the warming."[32]

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st285/

written in 2006

Just one... but I am sure our resident stalker will find some excuse to dismiss him... maybe he has brown hair or something

Why can't you just be honest?

He never said ALL of the source material was from pre 2001, he said just what I did, that MANY of the sources are from pre 2001.

btw...you didn't mention how many of the "sources" you provide were just Right Wing OPINION pieces...why is that?
 
REALLY!?!

"Didn't detail squat"?

You did see where I checked out the "sources"?

Damo...reduced to bald faced lies...it's sad really.

Originally Posted by ZappasGuitar View Post
Alrightie then...lets take a look at some of your "References":

#5-8...ALL OPINION PIECES

Yes, but they are either quoting climatologists or are written by them.

#10...an article from a DECADE ago...got anything more recent?

Hmmm... you skipped from number 8 to number 10... I wonder why? could it be that number 9 was from OCTOBER 2007? and thus made your comment on number 10 seem rather ignorant?

#11-12...MORE opinion pieces...

Yes... but just because something is written as an opinion piece doesn't make that opinion wrong. Keep in mind, the IPCC summary report is their OPINION.

#23...listed as a "letter to the editor"...click it and it says "404 Not Found" GOOD SOURCE!

So now you are skipping over #13-#22???? Why is that Zappa?

# ^ Paltridge, FGarth (2009). the Climate Caper. Connor Court Publishing. ISBN 9781921421259. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FXNzPgAACAAJ&dq=climate+caper&ei=DCDQSuylA5-qkASewLz1DQ.

# ^ A Skeptical View of Climate Models Tennekes, Hendrik from Science & Environmental Policy Project www.his.com/~sepp

# ^ Global Warming Natural, Says Expert Zenit April 2007

# ^ Zichichi, Antonino (April 26-27, 2007). "Meteorology and Climate:
Problems and Expectations". Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. http://www.justpax.it/pcgp/dati/2007-05/18-999999
/ZICHICHI_METEOROLOGY%20AND%20CLIMATE.pdf. Retrieved 2009-10-25. "quote is found on page 9"

# ^ Russian academic says CO2 not to blame for global warming Russian News & Information Agency, January 2007

# ^ Russian scientist issues global cooling warning Russian News & Information Agency August 2006

# ^ http://www.ogoniok.com/4933/24/ Page in Russian, Go here for a translation.

# ^ Global Warming Science vs. Computer Model Speculation: Just Ask the Experts Capitalism Magazine, August 2002

# ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/wear/content/articles/2007/03/27/climate_countdown_david_bellamy_feature.shtml

# ^ On global forces of nature driving the Earth’s climate. Are humans involved? L. F. Khilyuk1 and G. V. Chilingar Environmental Geology, vol. 50 no. 6, August 2006[/quote]

Oh... that is why....

#25...NEWSMAX! No BIAS there, eh?

You mean bias.... like skipping over every source that you can't pretend to refute by calling the source biased?

#32...from the NCPA,,,just another RightWing Propaganda Arm!

wow.... that is just funny... the author of the report is the HEAD OF CLIMACTIC RESEARCH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE.... surely you must tire of pretending everything that disagrees with your fear mongering masters is from a 'rightwing blog/site'

Also noted that you skipped another 6 sources....

#60...Opinion piece from the CATO Institute...another RightWing Organization.

wow... now you just go on to skip sources #33-59.... amazing....

HELL...half the "references" cite one of two guys as their source...William Happer or Tim Ball...

really... since you know this is the case... do list the ones that cite either of the two...

...so yeah, Wikipedia is still pretty unreliable..but you just keep on using them...it does make my job easier.

bottom line, you tried your best to cherry pick the sources and used the standard Cypress bullshit of attempting to dismiss them as 'right wing blogs' or 'op ed pieces'
 
REALLY!?!

"Didn't detail squat"?

You did see where I checked out the "sources"?

Damo...reduced to bald faced lies...it's sad really.
Yes, I saw where you supposedly "detailed" it, and noted where you pretended the "opinion pieces" were their own source again without regard to the papers they sourced in their articles, and noted that you conveniently skipped many of the sources that you thought you couldn't debunk and pretended how it was somehow a complete synopsis on something.

The reality was you defended Cypress saying he had done something he hadn't, I pointed that out. I now point out how you failed at producing anything to defend your own ideology, you just once again tried a weak "attack the messenger" approach that you hoped nobody would look into because it fell like a house of cards.

Now, what I suspect will happen is you'll link to a post where you didn't do what you said you did, and then call everybody who disagrees with you a "neocon" because that is what you always do.
 
Yeah lets discard it...seeing as how it's just another RightWing propaganda site.

After all, you wouldn't put much stock in a report by Media Matters on AGW, now would you?

If the report was written by a journalist at media matters... no

But the above report is written by an ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENTIST..... which is why you attempted to dismiss it as 'right wing' (translated that means... 'disagrees with my fear mongering masters)

Siegfried Fred Singer (born September 27, 1924) is an Austrian-born American physicist, and emeritus professor of environmental science at the University of Virginia.[1] Singer trained as an atmospheric physicist and is known for his work in space research, atmospheric pollution, rocket and satellite technology, and as an outspoken critic of the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming.
 
If the report was written by a journalist at media matters... no

But the above report is written by an ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENTIST..... which is why you attempted to dismiss it as 'right wing' (translated that means... 'disagrees with my fear mongering masters)

Siegfried Fred Singer (born September 27, 1924) is an Austrian-born American physicist, and emeritus professor of environmental science at the University of Virginia.[1] Singer trained as an atmospheric physicist and is known for his work in space research, atmospheric pollution, rocket and satellite technology, and as an outspoken critic of the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming.
Yes, that person disagrees with PBS and Sesame street so they are "neocons"... Haven't you figured out Zappa yet?
 
Why can't you just be honest?

He never said ALL of the source material was from pre 2001, he said just what I did, that MANY of the sources are from pre 2001.

btw...you didn't mention how many of the "sources" you provide were just Right Wing OPINION pieces...why is that?

yes... he stated:

[qutoe]Most of those quotes from "scientists" are old. Most are five to ten years old, and are based on the third IPCC assessment from 2001.. It's all right there in your wiki link. Dude, the science has evolved since 2001. Your link is wildly outdated. Try again. Please try to come up with something current, and from a well established and credible scientific institution. [/quote]

The above is incorrect.... the majority were written in the past five years. Yes, some were older. But tell me... are you going to discard everything the fear mongers have written that is older than five years? If not, then you are a tad hypocritical...

Also... what you just stated that 'many are pre-2001'... is a bit disingenuous... the vast majority are AFTER 2001.

You proclaiming them 'right wing opinion pieces' is nothing more than your blatant attempt to disregard them. See your pathetic attempts on source #32 as a prime example of this. (not to mention your comment on source 10 asking if I had 'anything newer'... despite there being over 30 sources that were newer right there)

This is the problem with you brain dead fear mongering lemmings... you actually believe your masters when they tell you the debate is over and you parrot that sentiment over and over and over again, despite any evidence to the contrary.
 
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Right, that's why people use other sources. My point wasn't that he was "right" or "wrong" just that Wiki wasn't the source. In your desperate attempt to attack the messenger you missed the target.

I'll continue to go with Jones, the debate is far from over. Unlike Theories of science, this one has yet to be settled. The attempt to assign it perfection and absoluteness that doesn't exist is extant only in political debate, even the scientists themselves say that this isn't a sure thing. Even, sometimes, the most important scientists in the field. That isn't something that deserves the title of Theory, it is something that is a good hypothesis that needs far more testing before we base draconian government restrictions on it.

Because of that, we need to find other reasons to clean up our act, ones that don't amount to making our lives suck to "save the planet" from man. Clean water is good, clean air is good. We should work towards emission-less energy, not because we're sure we're going to save the planet, but because it will be better for us. We should do this in a way that isn't designed to create false need or to bankrupt us, in ways that doesn't cut off our nose to spite our face like creating lightbulbs that use less energy but poison us at the same time because most people won't know or find out about the ways to "properly dispose" of them.

Due to past history, it's my opinion that we're more likely to be headed towards another ice age (maybe a mini one in Europe, again); but the warmers will sit around their heaters and swear that the ice age is a result of global warming, as they freeze to death.
 
Yes, but they are either quoting climatologists or are written by them.



Hmmm... you skipped from number 8 to number 10... I wonder why? could it be that number 9 was from OCTOBER 2007? and thus made your comment on number 10 seem rather ignorant?



Yes... but just because something is written as an opinion piece doesn't make that opinion wrong. Keep in mind, the IPCC summary report is their OPINION.



So now you are skipping over #13-#22???? Why is that Zappa?

# ^ Paltridge, FGarth (2009). the Climate Caper. Connor Court Publishing. ISBN 9781921421259. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FXNzPgAACAAJ&dq=climate+caper&ei=DCDQSuylA5-qkASewLz1DQ.

# ^ A Skeptical View of Climate Models Tennekes, Hendrik from Science & Environmental Policy Project www.his.com/~sepp

# ^ Global Warming Natural, Says Expert Zenit April 2007

# ^ Zichichi, Antonino (April 26-27, 2007). "Meteorology and Climate:
Problems and Expectations". Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace. http://www.justpax.it/pcgp/dati/2007-05/18-999999
/ZICHICHI_METEOROLOGY%20AND%20CLIMATE.pdf. Retrieved 2009-10-25. "quote is found on page 9"

# ^ Russian academic says CO2 not to blame for global warming Russian News & Information Agency, January 2007

# ^ Russian scientist issues global cooling warning Russian News & Information Agency August 2006

# ^ http://www.ogoniok.com/4933/24/ Page in Russian, Go here for a translation.

# ^ Global Warming Science vs. Computer Model Speculation: Just Ask the Experts Capitalism Magazine, August 2002

# ^ http://www.bbc.co.uk/wear/content/articles/2007/03/27/climate_countdown_david_bellamy_feature.shtml

# ^ On global forces of nature driving the Earth’s climate. Are humans involved? L. F. Khilyuk1 and G. V. Chilingar Environmental Geology, vol. 50 no. 6, August 2006

Oh... that is why....



You mean bias.... like skipping over every source that you can't pretend to refute by calling the source biased?



wow.... that is just funny... the author of the report is the HEAD OF CLIMACTIC RESEARCH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF DELAWARE.... surely you must tire of pretending everything that disagrees with your fear mongering masters is from a 'rightwing blog/site'

Also noted that you skipped another 6 sources....



wow... now you just go on to skip sources #33-59.... amazing....



really... since you know this is the case... do list the ones that cite either of the two...



bottom line, you tried your best to cherry pick the sources and used the standard Cypress bullshit of attempting to dismiss them as 'right wing blogs' or 'op ed pieces'[/QUOTE]

He's desperately pushing for global warming; because that way he can use it to explain why he sweats like a pig.
 
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