Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
yes and the temp dropped from the typical 78 down to 77.9.... PISSED HIM OFF...
A question for anti-choicers
- Thread starter FUCK THE POLICE
- Start date
yes and the temp dropped from the typical 78 down to 77.9.... PISSED HIM OFF...
zappasguitar
Well-known member
Yes.
When the human gestating takes it's FIRST BREATH and becomes a human BEING.
zappasguitar
Well-known member
I KNEW it!
"First breath" strikes me as a pretty weak argument. To me, it's as extreme on the choice side as 46 chromosomes on the right.
To me, both arguments require the abandonment of so many other considerations, and are way too cut & dry.
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
how many times do i have to explain to you the non consensus in the scientific community. i know what i believe, but you claimed it was fact. it is such a fact, then surely you can link me to the scientific fact. all you're giving me is your opinion.
zappasguitar
Well-known member
Don't get me wrong. I am ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THIRD TRIMESTER abortions.
ABSOLUTELY AGAINST.
But I'm not the one doing the "heavy lifting" so to speak, so I don't feel my beliefs should be the guiding principles behind any choices made by the woman who provided the womb and who is doing 90% of the work.
I can advise her, tell her how I feel, but ultimately it's the woman's choice.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
So right up until delivery... it isn't human or it doesn't exist???
I think the arbitrary term you are looking for is person... when it firsts takes a breath it becomes a person.... that is what you meant... right?
Because otherwise you are arguing that it is either non-human or non-existant.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
No yurt... BOTH of those are FACTS... tell me which one you think is false Yurt. Which one? Or is it both?
Do you think it isn't human?
Do you think it isn't alive?
Which is it yurt?
As I stated, when you start getting into arbitrary terms like personhood, then you are correct and there is debate.
but again yurt... quit ducking the questions... WHICH do you think is incorrect? (and if you care to explain why you feel that way, it would be appreciated)
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
link
why is it so hard for you to give a link? is it because you know there is no consensus to your "fact"?
why is it so hard for you to give a link? is it because you know there is no consensus to your "fact"?
I know you don't like the acorn analogy, and I'll allot that it is an imperfect analogy, but an acorn is alive, and has all of the genetic information to become a tree. But, the simple fact is, it is NOT a tree.
Is a zygote "human"? What does it mean to be human? Is it merely having all of the genetic material...the blueprint? Because really, that's all the zygote is. I understand the argument that if its development is not interrupted, human-ness is inevitable, but does that make the interruption "murder" at the early stages of that development?
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
Yes, the Zygote is human. It has to be. It is genetically impossible for it to be anything other than human. Yes... it is the blueprint/DNA that makes us human.
Your acorn analogy fails. It is not a like comparison. To be a like comparison you would compare the embryo in the acorn to a tree and a frozen embryo to an ADULT. Both the frozen embryo and the embryo in the acorn will go through a variety of maturation stages culminating in their 'adulthood'.... PROVIDED the conditions are met for them to do so. Two... the acorn CONTAINS the embryo, it is not the embryo itself.
As for the rest, that wanders back into the arbitrary discussion that we talked about before. I have no problem with people taking positions on one side or the other with regards to the arbitrary portion of the topic.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
LMAO... poor yurt... WHY is it so hard for you to answer two simple fucking questions? Is it because you KNOW the answer to both, because BOTH were taught to you in Science class? Yet you are too afraid to answer because it goes against your prior comments?
Answer the questions yurt and I will provide you with links to numerous text books you can go read.
Ultimately, you are contradicting yourself here. If it's the blueprint/DNA that makes us human, the acorn (or, the embryo in the acorn) is what makes it a tree.
But it's not a tree; it's an embryo/acorn.
The zygote contains the blueprint, but it is not A human. It has certain characteristics which science attributes to humanity, and - as you have said - it has a genetic code which makes it unique, but it not yet A human.
Cancel 2018. 3
<-- sched 2, MJ sched 1
nice try...i asked you first and i'm not going to let you play hostage taker over a simple request
if you can't provide the link, then just say so, don't play this stupid game
you get one more shot, if you don't provide the link or links, then there is nothing further for you and i to discuss on this matter
zappasguitar
Well-known member
You are right...
I was just trying to get cute and use the term "human being" in a different way.
When it is in the womb, it is a human gestating.
When it is born, it is a human being. (being:To be)
When a cake is in the oven, it is BECOMING a cake. All the right ingredients are there, but it's not quite ready for the world.
When it comes out of the oven, it IS a cake.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
No, there is not contradiction. Again, the acorn is to the tree, what the frozen embryo is to the adult.
The ACORN and the TREE are both genetically OAK.
The Embryo and the adult are both genetically HUMAN.
Saying the zygote is not yet a human is quite frankly, absurd. If you meant "person" then you are correct as it is again back to the arbitrary. But if you did mean not yet human, then please explain when the magic baby fairy comes to turn it human. How does this process occur?
That's why I was very clear & made a point of saying A human, twice. I would not argue that the zygote isn't a human zygote, or that it isn't human.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
Again, incorrect.
"being" means to exist. The child still exists prior to birth.
It may not meet the legal definitions of "person", but it is still a human being from the moment of conception.