A nice little sample

[theMAJORITY]

Well, I just got back from my bank's ATM machine to check my balance. So I make the inquirey--and I don't get a reciept. It was jammed. Well, I was not about to leave my reciept in the machine, so I checked it out a little more closely. I could see the smallest edge of paper sticking out of the slot, and I was able top grab it with my card, and a finger nail enough to get it to slide out a bit more. Just far enough to get my fingers on it---out it came--with 12 other reciepts from the banks customers who drove up to the money machine outside, before I did. Now, I am not one to be nosey, and I don't know who these people are that did not get their reciept. There is not a full account number, and I am going to shred them as soon as I get done typing this.

What I have here is a pretty good sample of the checking accounts of 12 people, randomly selected (pretty much)---just to show you how well our economy is down here in the trenches of Michigan. A few break $1000.00 and I bet some of those are self employed--like me. Check out the national average. I left mine out of the sample.

#1 $1698.45
#2 $1304.87
#3 $3430.00
#4 $512.92
#5 $809.44
#6 $3718.94
#7 $1059.69
#8 $99.90
#9 $359.20
#10 $41.13
#11 $515.24
#12 $372.48

I got a average of about $1,160.00 (which is about 28 times higher than the lowest). I bet some of the higher ones are self employed, and most of the rest probably have health insurance through their employeer (of which they pay very little).

When we get a national health care system---taxes will go up (my totally bare bone, based on other countries income taxes, estimation---up to 25% more tax)--and most of these people will join the ranks of poverty IMO (even 10% will really hurt millions of people). Many people get a job with one pretty big factor in mind-- because it has health care benifits. Many won't care if they are working or not (and make money under the table--may be selling more drugs), because they will have health care paid for with tax payer money. That means less productive workers, and more people that are a burdon on them. The guy with 3 grand in his checking account---kiss that good by. Your chance of your American dream?---that just got harder also (unless you get into selling drugs--the only free market left).

There is not a liberial on the planet that can tell me that these people will not suffer a personal economic hardship that will be passed on to their children. They won't have a chance--and the burdon is additive on productive, self supporting families--probably dropping their lifestyle they worked for a bit lower.

Sorry folks. I just see a national health care system as a disaster in this country. I am sure it will impose the single biggest tax on the people that this country has ever seen. I think that will make many people lose what they worked for IMO.

 

[charver]

You're going to shred the details which you acquired in a somewhat dubious manner. OK.

Evidence of the highest order, i'm sure.

 

[Battleborne]

??????????????

I really don't get the connection to health care from this posting...albeit all of the balances you sampled and posted could be mine on any given day...depending on payday and bills already paid...

 

[theMAJORITY]

You're going to shred the details which you acquired in a somewhat dubious manner. OK.

Evidence of the highest order, i'm sure.

A obviously confused liberial. it is not your fault--it is the conditioning you have been subjected to.

There is nothing "dubious" about trying to get your own reciept.

In fact, look up the defination of the word "dubious". may be you can get a handle on when your confusion started.

You do not have half the morals I do. The evidence of manufacturing an accusation from the facts provided-----is pretty twisted, and beyond my capibilities. (what you do is called a "witch hunt") I had a girlfriend like that once, but she looked great in a dress and heals.---I know you better than you know yourself---lol.

 

[evince]

Majority get a clue. You are some poster on the internet and we do not have to Believe your so called evidence which even if true proves NOTHING!

What you forget is when your taxes go up for healthcare you will no longer pay into your employer for healthcare and you will no longer have a deductable for health care. The people who use the Emergency room for health care will no longer be doing so bringing the costs of emergency care down greatly. The fact that everyone will have access to preventative care will also bring the entire cost of healthcare down emensely. You see when conditions are allowed to go full blown without care and then that person goes to the Emergency room(and are unable to pay aything) they are adding vast cost to the system.

How I dearly wish you people would face the REAL facts.

 

[theMAJORITY]

I really don't get the connection to health care from this posting...albeit all of the balances you sampled and posted could be mine on any given day...depending on payday and bills already paid...

Well---the real problem with the numbers is it is just checking accounts. I was trying to show hwo people are just barely making it today. We see the home forclosure rates, and the amounts of people moving to other states as a very good indicator of that. The talk about a national recession is now hitting the major media. I knew we would be facing a recession 8 years ago---when I started seeing the results of irresopnsible trade policies. I knew how important the manufacturing sector, and other industries are to a healty nation of people.

These people could have big saving accounts, or good investments (interesting to see what happens to those). They could be just paying their bills with a checking account, and it may not be a good indicator of their finincial health (accept that $40.00 guy--he has to be on the edge with one foot off). I do talk with a lot of local people though, and what I hear, and what I have experienced most of my life, with everybody I worked with (all legal), would indicate that the checking they have might be a pretty good indicator of their financial health.


How this ties in with a national health care is---most people that have health insurance have it provided by their employeer right now (not sure if that is so great either). The employees pay very little for their health care. Unusally not more than $50.00 a month for their family, and usually a lot lower. I don't think I ever paid more than $25.00/month. The employeer pays the rest of the premium. Employeers today, are constantly looking for new insurance providers, and it is very compettitive (there is just so much abuse today--it is expensive). It does happen a lot where a company will switch providers once a year or more---looking for the best deal. It was not like that earlier in my career. Now I know, the employeer is on the edge also, espically if they are in manufacturing. A national health care system would lift the burdon off their shoulders--and that would be really good for them. Most companies need to restore that money into profits or capatol investment--and they will. Almost none of them will give their employees a raise.

Now, with the burdon off the employeer---the full burdon now goes to their employees in the form of more federal taxes. I think these taxes will be very high for all of us--that is, if all other countries, which all have more than 50% income going to the government with health care systems. All countries with a huge income tax is a huge indicator that ours will be also IMO. Espically since our health care is more advanced in many cases, and we have a very spendfull governemnt compared to all of those other countries.

It is the tax burdon on the people from a national health care system in this country, at this time of economic uncertancy, which I firmly believe will literally push people off the edge, and many become non productive. That is bad for the productive/non productive ratio---espically when the people economy is on the down slide with most people making less money, mostly because of irresponsible trade policies.

my point is---we can't afford a national health care system in this country. We are a fat government everywhere else with out of control spending, the people are on the down slide with their income----and the taxes will make them poverty---or feel a lot like it when the home forclosure rate far exceeds what is is now. The rest of us, will be closer to the edge--and I will probably be right on it---with less chance of my ability to build my business.

I think we would face a downward economic domino effect that rivels Al Gors domino effect of CO2, if we implemented a national health care (which is welfare folks--paid for by your neighbor) now in this country. We are hearing talk about a possible recession right now. Do we need to hear talk about a national depression? A expensive health care plan, with the added tax for the productive people, I fear, will generate talk (with real possibility) about a national depression 3 or 5 years after it has been implamented.

When the economy was good, and health care was not expensive due to abuse as it is today---nobody talked about a national health care system in USA. The expensive issue rose, yet again, when people are under duress economically. But it is expensive programs like these that hurt people when they are tyring to get on their own feet when times get better. I am also scared of a government that wants to make it's citizens dependent on the government. I know that is not what made this country great.

Just my opinion. But I think I am right on this one.

 

[Battleborne]

Well hell.............!

Well---the real problem with the numbers is it is just checking accounts. I was trying to show hwo people are just barely making it today. We see the home forclosure rates, and the amounts of people moving to other states as a very good indicator of that. The talk about a national recession is now hitting the major media. I knew we would be facing a recession 8 years ago---when I started seeing the results of irresopnsible trade policies. I knew how important the manufacturing sector, and other industries are to a healty nation of people.

These people could have big saving accounts, or good investments (interesting to see what happens to those). They could be just paying their bills with a checking account, and it may not be a good indicator of their finincial health (accept that $40.00 guy--he has to be on the edge with one foot off). I do talk with a lot of local people though, and what I hear would indicate that the checking they have might be a pretty good indicator of their financial health.


How this ties in with a national health care is---most people that have health insurance has it provided by their employeer right now (not sure if that is so great either). The employees pay very little for their health care. Unusally not more than $50.00 a month, and usually a lot lower. I don't think I ever paid more than $25.00/month. The employeer pays the rest of the premium. Employeers today, are constantly ooking for new insurance providers, and it is very compettitive. It does happen a lot where a compoany will switch providers once a year or more---looking for the best deal. It was not like that earlier in my career. Now I know, the employeer is on the edge also, espically if they are in manufacturing. A national health care system would lift the burdon off their shoulders--and that would be really good for them. Many companies need to restore that money into profits--and they will. Almost none of them will give their employees a raise.

Now, with the burdon off the employeer---the full burdon now goes to their employees in the form of more federal taxes. I think these taxes will be very high for all of us--that is, if all other countries have more than 50% income going to the government with healt care systems. All countries with a huge income tax is a huge indicator that ours will be also. Espically since our health care is more advanced in many cases, and we have a very spendfull governemnt compared to all of those other countries.

It is the tax burdon on the people from a national health care system in this country, at this time of economic uncertancy, which I firmly believe will literally push people off the edge, and many become non productive. That is bad for the productive/non productive ratio---espically when the people economy is on the down slide.

my point is---we can't afford a national health care system in this country. We are fat everywhere else with out of control spending, the people are on the down slide with their income----and the taxes will make them poverty---or feel a lot like it. The rest of us, will be closer to the edge--and I will probably be right on it---with less chance of my ability to build my business.

I think we would face a downward economic domino effect that rivels Al Gors domino effect of CO2, if we implemented a national health care (which is welfare folks--paid for by your neighbor) now in this country.

Just my opinion. But I think I am right on this one.

Hey my account has hit the $40.00 low on occassion...and on occassion above your top posting balance! Depends like I said, how close to direct deposit my account is and how many bills were paid on time...or how many presents were puchased or entertainment for that period...guess I'm in trouble eh!...Not! everything I own is paid for...however I will agree that the housing market will bust very shortly...the artificial inflated pricing for quick turnovers for investors is going to kill them...and the price of oil per barrel is not helping!

 

[evince]

Take a look at the pharma and insurance profits over the same period of time as the decline of our healthcare.

You will then see what really happened and why it is so expensive and bad.

 

[theMAJORITY]

Majority get a clue. You are some poster on the internet and we do not have to Believe your so called evidence which even if true proves NOTHING!

What you forget is when your taxes go up for healthcare you will no longer pay into your employer for healthcare and you will no longer have a deductable for health care. The people who use the Emergency room for health care will no longer be doing so bringing the costs of emergency care down greatly. The fact that everyone will have access to preventative care will also bring the entire cost of healthcare down emensely. You see when conditions are allowed to go full blown without care and then that person goes to the Emergency room(and are unable to pay aything) they are adding vast cost to the system.

How I dearly wish you people would face the REAL facts.

Desh. How much do you think the average premimun a empoyee pays their employeer? You really don't have a clue---do you. Your just regurgatating what you have been told by national health care supporters. I live in it man. Paid my employeer very very little every month. I had many employeers, may be 30 of them, and they were all cheap contributions for the employee. The employees bitched if it went up 3 bucks. I understasnd what people think is "free health care" actually use the emergency room more--much more--for every little ache and pain a liberial can think of. Again---where do you get your info--and how do they make their money? preventive care is expensive---more of it will raise taxes more yet. Just a fact.

I think your facts are nothing more than manufuactured propaganda.

How do you make your money? You can't possibley reprresent the population like theMAJORITY!! You don't even know how much a employee pays for a premimum. You never lived from pay check to pay check like they do---did you?

You should be thrown in jail for that propaganda!!!!! IMO

 

[evince]

Preventative care is expensive?

Liberals use emergency rooms for every little ache or pain?

You have a good healthcare package deal so you think everyone does?


You have got your head stuck in a hole.

 

[theMAJORITY]

Hey my account has hit the $40.00 low on occassion...and on occassion above your top posting balance! Depends like I said, how close to direct deposit my account is and how many bills were paid on time...or how many presents were puchased or entertainment for that period...guess I'm in trouble eh!...Not! everything I own is paid for...however I will agree that the housing market will bust very shortly...the artificial inflated pricing for quick turnovers for investors is going to kill them...and the price of oil per barrel is not helping!

I did address above that the checking numbers only may not be a good representation of the peoples economic health. But, with other research, and the communication I do with many people, I can believe it has a better chance of being accurate, than it does not being accurate.

To add to your thoughts of the housing market. I know those mortage comapnies are selling ARM's when they should be selling fixed. It reminds me of the life insurance indsutry that sells whole life more than they should. More interest in profits insead of their customers ability to pay. Now, the people are not maiing more money either. I am one example. I am basically a machinist, with a ton of exp and a few manufacturing degrees. I went to work on time, and was very dependable. I shared ideas that I learned from my exp and education that the companys used to their benifit. That was the case also with y last job. I worked there for 2 years, and I got a 25 cent raise during that time. My point is, many employeers are not even able to keep us with the cost of living for their employees--and that means you have no growing future---but a declining future.

 

[evince]

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10719&page=38

Go read up on the subject and get back to me on who would really benifit from a single payer system.

 

[uscitizen]

Umm the poorest do not have bank cards and use tellers....somewhat of a skewed sample there "Majority"

 

[Battleborne]

But they have to sell ARMS........

I did address above that the checking numbers only may not be a good representation of the peoples economic health. But, with other research, and the communication I do with many people, I can believe it has a better chance of being accurate, than it does not being accurate.

To add to your thoughts of the housing market. I know those mortage comapnies are selling ARM's when they should be selling fixed. It reminds me of the life insurance indsutry that sells whole life more than they should. More interest in profits insead of their customers ability to pay. Now, the people are not maiing more money either. I am one example. I am basically a machinist, with a ton of exp and a few manufacturing degrees. I went to work on time, and was very dependable. I shared ideas that I learned from my exp and education that the companys used to their benifit. That was the case also with y last job. I worked there for 2 years, and I got a 25 cent raise during that time. My point is, many employeers are not even able to keep us with the cost of living for their employees--and that means you have no growing future---but a declining future.

as the artificial inflated prices of houses exceeds the average workers ability to qualify much less afford...It was based on greed...and they are now paying the piper...I will be a happy camper when I see the housing market crash totally and get back to what housing is really worth...to be realistic the average house is worth between $50,000.and $80,000..not the artificial $450,000...and the price for a barrel of oil is worth $35.00 not $100.00

When man stops being greedy and lets the average person live as they were intended to live...reasonable pricing on necessities...if they want to artificially raise prices on luxury items thats cool...the rest will only bring havoc and depression...end of story!

 

[evince]

And the only way that can happen is for the majority of mankind to police through government the human tendency to greed with oversite and legislation.

 

[theMAJORITY]

Preventative care is expensive?

Liberals use emergency rooms for every little ache or pain?

You have a good healthcare package deal so you think everyone does?


You have got your head stuck in a hole.

Look Desh. I know our health care is expenisive---but it is due to abuse.

Yes, when people have health care--they tend to go to the doctor more. Espically the ones who are hypocontriacs---like liberials probably tend to be---lol. I know it is not perfect. But people used to be able to afford it not to long ago. When people make more money, and the abuse is curbed (which people being able to afford their won will curb abuse also), I think most people will cover themselfs.

Desh--I do talk to a lot of people, and I do hear some really tragic stories about people not getting the care they really need--espically for things that tend top be terminal, if they are not covered. It is tragic, and I feel very badly for those people. I think if we do things to make our economy better (even if that means not doing business with slave countries--unless they want to elevate theior society close to ours--so it is fair and we don't hurt our people)---and work on curbing the abuse that drove up the cost of private healt care--I think we can provide good insurance to almost all people---because the will be able to buy it--or employeers may still carry it.

These are tough times Desh. Tough times come and go---but ours today are mostly due to irresponsible decisions by our elected officials. It is always in times like these, when people are having a hard time, that the government steps up to the plate with a great plan---and it never works out. Good times come--and no productive American wants expensive welfare. The non productive Americans then take advantage of the social systems that were set in place during hard times.

You have to answer this question---why was this not a issue 20 years ago? My attutide is, I would rather get over hard times by myself (with out a governement tht stacks the deck), so I can prosper during the good times. I am not afraid of failure like we are taught now. I did not go to one of those schools where every body got a trophie. But those kids will really never know the rush of really taking care of themselfs and prospering during the good times---because they willbe taxed to much to prosper during the good times.

that is what is really happeing with expensive social programs. the hinder our ability to prosper during good times. It is a robbery IMO. It is a lot of great people that weill have that much harder times trying to succede for them and their famnily. It is a robbery of a American dream, and advocates dependancy. Persaonally, as a member of society that believes every American sould do what they know how to do to be a productive member of society---a person that feels very passionatly about great people using their god given talents so they, the real American Cream of the crop can rise to the top----A person that realizes that social programs hinder a humans search for freedom and making a good difference for others to benifit from also---I would hate to lose all of those virtues because we are in bad times (that --who knows---may be by design as far as we know).

Why do you think a free peole can't take care of themselfs? I came from nothing, and I am kinda doing it with the stacked deck we have. I just want to unstack the deck---then you will see the people take care of themselfs----even if they have to learn how to do it. The # of people forgeting, or never learing how to take care of themselfs is rising with every generation. The productive people can only afford so much. I think most are on the edge now.

mark my words--I can't sem to see any other senerio right now--that a national health care will make poverity rise greatly much faster than it is rising right now.

What good is a growing population of healthy people that can't provide for themselfs----lol.

I would rather help them provide for themselfs, and stop selling the American worker down the river--and curb the abuse of the private health care system. it worked pretty good a few short years ago--it can work again. Our economy for the people is the key. Then--the cream will rise again.

Now don't forget this. Yes, Desh, I agree that we have a health care cost issue in this country, and I hate it as much as you do when I hear or see a personal tradgity--but again--I can point the finger at us being forced to elect rich c-suckers who really don't care about us. If they would not have screwed up our economy, where people make less money, are taxed more, are losiong their jobs and insurance they had--with illegal immergrants and many many people abusing the system------WE WOULD PROBABLY NOT HAVE THIS ISSUE at all. I believe in getting to the root of the problem--not putting a expensive blanket over it and covering it up.

 

[theMAJORITY]

Umm the poorest do not have bank cards and use tellers....somewhat of a skewed sample there "Majority"

I know what your saying. You are you saying that they are not in poverty yet? I agree. They are probalby paying very very little out of pocket through their employeer. That will go up in taxes.

 

[Battleborne]

Actually...........

And the only way that can happen is for the majority of mankind to police through government the human tendency to greed with oversite and legislation.

Corporations and Investors need to police their own...they are about as dumb as rocks...outsourcing Middle class jobs and insourcing cheap labor along with artificially inflating pricing on basic needs ie:Housing,fuel,food,utilities,medical,transportation etc...while all along reducing the income potential for US Citizens is a disastor waiting to happen...how can they expect anyone to even afford cheap products from China if they are reduced to poverty wages...I say return our exported manufacturing jobs...enforce Immigration laws,return basic need pricing to realistic values...and buy American...'Thats all folks'...the guru has spoken!

 

[theMAJORITY]

Corporations and Investors need to police their own...they are about as dumb as rocks...outsourcing Middle class jobs and insourcing cheap labor along with artificially inflating pricing on basic needs ie:Housing,fuel,food,utilities,medical,transportation etc...while all along reducing the income potential for USCitizens is a disastor waiting to happen...how can anyone even afford cheap products from China if the are reduced to poverty wages...I say return our exported manufacturing jobs...enforce Immigration laws,return basic need pricing to realistic values...and buy American...'Thats all folks'...the guru has spoken!

Right on. But here is what happened. China, for a great example has made their biggest liability, into their biggest asset. Billions of people, non produtive was a huge libility--now they are a huge slave labor work force for what ever a forien company wants to do (as a partnership with the China company). This is what happened with our irresponsible trade deals. The big corps recogonized they can increase coporate profits by ditching the American work force, and moving over seas in this great gloabalizatioin era we are in. They see other countries doing it, and they want/need that profit also. So they rub elbosw, give contributions to the Republicans who wrote NAFTA, and the Demacrats that signed it. (just one example) The problem is globalization in a hap hazzard way, that will hurt any country that has a population of productive workers---and it is. I agree---our elected officials should have drawn the line when it comes to hurting our people.---but we don't really elect people who are not rich, and not friends with rich coporations--now do we.

there inlies the base root of the problem.

 

[theMAJORITY]

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10719&page=38

Go read up on the subject and get back to me on who would really benifit from a single payer system.

I will check it out when I get a chance. I have to get off the computer and make money for welfare recipients now and unfortunate people who lost their jobs and helath insurance that came with that job.

Here is a line from the first paragraph though.

"Persons without health insurance, on average, spend less for health care out of pocket than do those with health insurance because they use fewer and less costly services."


Now tell me again, how people who are covered, and think it is free, will not use the system more than probably needed? How are you going to estimate those costs?

There is a excellent program on one of my cable educational chanels right now about health care world wide. It is echoing my concerns, but it also adding a lot more information. Like Hospitals are not very effieient, and are running at about 20% less effieiency than they should. That means they are too big, or some may need to be shut down. They are running at 65% capacity, and they should be running at about 85% efficiency (need some room for a epidemic).

I think when we look at what is happening to the money---we will have a better idea of the fixes needed. I don't think a national health care system will fix the money holes, and the people will be over taxed in this country. This program did talk about it also.