A Civil Discussion: Evolution, Science, Theology, Atheism, Climate

Mott the Hoople said:
Yes and no. All theories have to falsifiable in principle. This makes science self correcting for when it is wrong. For example if you drop an object and it travels at a tangent from your body instead of towards the center of the earth you will have falsified the theory of gravity.
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If something is a fact, it can't be wrong since facts are indisputable. Are you saying the definition of fact is wrong?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
All theories have to falsifiable in principle.
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We should cast this in lead and tie it around the necks of those who claim things such as abiogenesis, string "theory" and the claim that humans evolved from single celled organisms claim the support of science.....then we should throw them in a pond to see if they float......I have a theory they would not.......
 
This question got skipped:

How did we come to be so intelligent when it’s not a biological or Darwinian necessity for the propagation of our species?
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Micawber,

Thanks for the reply.



If you know more than others, what part of that indicates you should be insolent to them?

I don't understand this concept that those who know the most should be mean and aloof to those who know less.

How would those who know less, ever learn more, if those who know more, refuse to talk to them?



OK, now I see more of where this is coming from. It's a blaming/venting thing. Forgiveness is indicated.

Education would definitely help the situation, but being apprehensive is not an effective education method.

Few react to being insulted by wanting to learn from the insulter. Usually the reaction is an equal and opposite response, or an escalation of disrespect.

Stereotyping is definitely not instructive or helpful. Rather, it leads to a plateauing of knowledge level, and an inability to learn any more.

One must always be able to learn more.
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I'll consider forgiveness after they change, i.e. when the train wreck is over. It's a continuing tort. Forgiveness is premature.
People who do not believe in evidence based learning lack a shared frame of reference to debate anything.
All the information to educate a person is available for free at your local natural history museum. There is nothing that
requires debate. The scientific debate I'm certain is insider baseball on whether this or that hooved fossil derives
from this or that known line of bovidae or whatever, experts might reasonably disagree about. But to reject
evolution is simply to cut two legs off the table. They can't learn ANYTHING unless they accept and understand
bedrock science. Trump provides license or aegis to be wilfully ignorant, and that is a disservice and loathsome.
Evolution deniers have been brought to the water but will not drink out of spite. It's not a matter of using
velvet gloves and providing a better explanation to them. They've heard reasonable and compelling explanations
already.
 
Darth Omar said:
This question got skipped:

How did we come to be so intelligent when it’s not a biological or Darwinian necessity for the propagation of our species?
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Well, for starters, there ARE adaptations that sometimes stick even though they're not "necessary" for survival.

But beyond that, our intelligence is definitely what allowed us to survive in a world w/ predators and circumstances that we otherwise would not have been able to handle. So I don't really understand the question.
 
Thing1 said:
Well, for starters, there ARE adaptations that sometimes stick even though they're not "necessary" for survival.

But beyond that, our intelligence is definitely what allowed us to survive in a world w/ predators and circumstances that we otherwise would not have been able to handle. So I don't really understand the question.
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Our profound intelligence isn’t like a vestigal organ. Besides, you’re just begging the question of how it occurred in the first place.

It’s way beyond what would be required to propogate our species. In fact, it’s an embarrassment of riches from a Darwinian standpoint. How much intelligence is required to gather food, run from lions or bash your male competitor in the head so you can impregnate the females and pass your genes on? In other words, behave like the rest of our putative animal cousins.

Doesn’t add up.
 
Darth Omar said:
Our profound intelligence isn’t like a vestigal organ. Besides, you’re just begging the question of how it occurred in the first place.

It’s way beyond what would be required to propogate our species. In fact, it’s an embarrassment of riches from a Darwinian standpoint. How much intelligence is required to gather food, run from lions or bash your male competitor in the head so you can impregnate the females and pass your genes on? In other words, behave like the rest of our putative animal cousins.

Doesn’t add up.
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I think you're overstating our "profound intelligence" a bit. It's a pretty small leap from our evolutionary cousins - and what was required so that we could reason our way to survival in a world w/ competitors who were much more physically equipped.

Going back to the whole "we're special" argument, you really haven't presented anything outside of a slightly higher capacity & scale in most areas. There is nothing we really have that could be called "unique." Just better in some respects.
 
Thing1 said:
I think you're overstating our "profound intelligence" a bit. It's a pretty small leap from our evolutionary cousins - and what was required so that we could reason our way to survival in a world w/ competitors who were much more physically equipped.

Going back to the whole "we're special" argument, you really haven't presented anything outside of a slightly higher capacity & scale in most areas. There is nothing we really have that could be called "unique." Just better in some respects.
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Here is an article which quotes the scientific journal Cell:

Prof Lahn's team examined the DNA of 214 genes involved in brain development in humans, macaques, rats and mice.

By comparing mutations that had no effect on the function of the genes with those mutations that did, they came up with a measure of the pressure of natural selection on those genes.

The scientists found that the human brain's genes had gone through an intense amount of evolution in a short amount of time - a process that far outstripped the evolution of the genes of other animals.

"We've proven that there is a big distinction," Prof Lahn said. "Human evolution is, in fact, a privileged process because it involves a large number of mutations in a large number of genes.

"To accomplish so much in so little evolutionary time - a few tens of millions of years - requires a selective process that is perhaps categorically different from the typical processes of acquiring new biological traits."

As for how all of this happened, the professor suggests that the development of human society may be the reason.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2004/dec/29/evolution.science
__________________

The evolutionary explanation for the human brain relies heavily on speculation [similar speculations haunt evolution—-it’s one of the reasons I tend to be skeptical of it] but that’s not why I pasted the article.

It was to demonstrate that scientists agree with me—the human brain is unique, which makes us unique amongst the animals.
 
Darth Omar said:
Here is an article which quotes the scientific journal Cell:

Prof Lahn's team examined the DNA of 214 genes involved in brain development in humans, macaques, rats and mice.

By comparing mutations that had no effect on the function of the genes with those mutations that did, they came up with a measure of the pressure of natural selection on those genes.

The scientists found that the human brain's genes had gone through an intense amount of evolution in a short amount of time - a process that far outstripped the evolution of the genes of other animals.

"We've proven that there is a big distinction," Prof Lahn said. "Human evolution is, in fact, a privileged process because it involves a large number of mutations in a large number of genes.

"To accomplish so much in so little evolutionary time - a few tens of millions of years - requires a selective process that is perhaps categorically different from the typical processes of acquiring new biological traits."

As for how all of this happened, the professor suggests that the development of human society may be the reason.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2004/dec/29/evolution.science
__________________

The evolutionary explanation for the human brain relies heavily on speculation [similar speculations haunt evolution—-it’s one of the reasons I tend to be skeptical of it] but that’s not why I pasted the article.

It was to demonstrate that scientists agree with me—the human brain is unique, which makes us unique amongst the animals.
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I don't know if you realize that the bolded undermines most of what you're trying to argue.

As for the human brain making us "unique," a shark's jaws also make them "unique." The brain is just something we needed more to survive.
 
Thing1 said:
I don't know if you realize that the bolded undermines most of what you're trying to argue.

As for the human brain making us "unique," a shark's jaws also make them "unique." The brain is just something we needed more to survive.
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But we seemed to be surviving just fine until the ‘categorically different selection process’ just happen to happen lol.

You don’t know much about the human brain if you compare it to a sharks jaw.

The link establishes two things: at least some scientists all but call humans ‘special’—-because of our brain/intelligence; also, they don’t really have a good explanation for it.
 
Darth Omar said:
But we seemed to be surviving just fine until the ‘categorically different selection process’ just happen to happen lol.

You don’t know much about the human brain if you compare it to a sharks jaw.

The link establishes two things: at least some scientists all but call humans ‘special’—-because of our brain/intelligence; also, they don’t really have a good explanation for it.
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Does Darth believe he is going to live forever?
 
Darth Omar said:
But we seemed to be surviving just fine until the ‘categorically different selection process’ just happen to happen lol.

You don’t know much about the human brain if you compare it to a sharks jaw.

The link establishes two things: at least some scientists all but call humans ‘special’—-because of our brain/intelligence; also, they don’t really have a good explanation for it.
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You've lost sight of what we're discussing, and you're making false comparisons. And you have moved the goalposts at least a dozen times.

They said our brains adapted in a unique way - just like a thousand other animals had a thousand other adaptations adapt in a unique way.
 
Thing1 said:
You've lost sight of what we're discussing, and you're making false comparisons. And you have moved the goalposts at least a dozen times.

They said our brains adapted in a unique way - just like a thousand other animals had a thousand other adaptations adapt in a unique way.
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You mischaracterized what they said and you’re resorting to semantics.

Bird bills adapt in a unique way, but they don’t exceed the normal rate of evolution. They claimed it was a ‘categorically different selection process’ than normal selection processes.

Are you questioning their judgment?

Also, this reinforces my prior point about humans appearing suddenly—and without good explanation, in the fossil record.
 
Darth Omar said:
You mischaracterized what they said and you’re resorting to semantics.

Bird bills adapt in a unique way, but they don’t exceed the normal rate of evolution. They claimed it was a ‘categorically different selection process’ than normal selection processes.

Are you questioning their judgment?

Also, this reinforces my prior point about humans appearing suddenly—and without good explanation, in the fossil record.
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We're back to Adam & Eve now?

I was reserving my discussion to science.
 
Darth Omar said:
I thought we were discussing evolution.

Maybe at least you can begin to understand why I’m a skeptic.
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Evolution is science. You're skeptical about evolution?

It exists. And it really isn't a huge leap to see where man evolved from, like we just popped out of nowhere. It's a pretty clear path in the fossil record from the trees to savannahs to now.
 
Thing1 said:
I don't know if you realize that the bolded undermines most of what you're trying to argue.

As for the human brain making us "unique," a shark's jaws also make them "unique." The brain is just something we needed more to survive.
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No shit, his argument is stupid. He thinks he is dealing with nitwits? Wow, humans have an embarrassment of riches in brain power, doesn't add up...
Uh, a shark has an embarrassment of riches in tooth power, doesn't add up.
A cheetah has an embarrassment of riches in speed power, much more than it needs.... I mean, a dog doesn't need that much speed to catch a rabbit.
Look at that rabbit, it has way too much fuck a lot power, more than it needs. Makes no sense.

Seriously? Humans aren't just competing against other species that manage to eak out a living, they compete against each other.
And though it appears liberals are winning the intelligence race, as Mott Hooples comical movie displayed, it's not translating into more
procreation in this particular blip in time. I'm going to fuck more not because of love or because it feels good, but for the good of America.
And I suggest we start sprinkling birth control in chicken McNuggets.
 
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