'100s of esteemed biologists' lied about evolution

Dixie used to get financial advice from god whilst in the shower. I used to think he was ill, but as long as he's happy and doesn't hurt anyone.....
 
AnyOldIron said:
But it is one hell of a retreat for the god of the gaps, isn't it Dixie? God used to be used to explain practically everything. Remember when Boreas was used to explain pregnancy? Or Zeus was used to explain storms. Or when Jehovah was attributed with having hand-made the Earth? Now all 'god' is used for is as some ambigious and impotent first cause. What a back track. Almost looks like 'god' has been a tool of man's, used to explain that that we don't understand, doesn't it?

You are right, Dixie. Those traits are for a reason. And that reason is propogation of the species. In other words, you are describing evolutionary traits. Traits the species has that have helped it survive natural selection.

So to what purpose could humanity's perceived 'belief in spirituality' have for man? Well, as we saw earlier man has used 'spirituality' as a way of understanding the world about it. We are back to Boreas, Zeus and Jehovah. Homo Sapiens are unique amongst species in that the size and complexity of its brain has given it the capacity to contemplate and try to understand. 'God' was early man's attempts to understand the world about it. As man's understanding has improved the notion of 'god' has declined. It will soon hold no purpose at all.


Really? We still have our coccyx. Why would you think something that is no longer used go from a gene-pool so quickly? What you are ignoring is the fact that under natural selection, it is not just those traits that improve the chance of reproduction, but all traits that don't harm chances of reproduction.
And you are right, it is a very weak argument for the existence of deities. Using Occram's razor, it has a far better explanation than as an indicator of the supernatural. It has a natural explanation.
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Here is how your premise fails... If spirituality were for the purposes you described, we would have seen a massive decline in the number of spiritual believers through the ages, as people became more and more enlightened and aware of science. Religion and spiritual belief would have more closely followed the path of superstition and mythology. We don't see that result, instead we see ever-stronger ties between humans and their spiritual beliefs. We find that spirituality doesn't just give man a way to explain the unexplained, but it also inspires and motivates. An inner-strength is drawn through this spiritual belief, courage and fearlessness are bolstered by it. Therefore, it is much more intrinsically tied to who we are as a species, than superstitious belief.

Really? We still have our coccyx. Why would you think something that is no longer used go from a gene-pool so quickly?

It is an important attachment for various muscles, tendons and ligaments. Additionally, it is also a part of the weight-bearing tripod structure which acts as a support for a sitting person. When a person sits leaning forward, the ischial tuberosities and inferior rami of the ischium take most of the weight, but as the sitting person leans backward, more weight is transferred to the coccyx. The anterior side of the coccyx serves for the attachment of a group of muscles important for many functions of the pelvic floor (i.e., defecation, continence, etc.): The levator ani muscle, which include coccygeus, iliococcygeus, and pubococcygeus. Through the anococcygeal raphé, the coccyx supports the position of the anus. Attached to the posterior side is gluteus maximus which extend the thigh during ambulation. Many important ligaments attach to the coccyx: The anterior and posterior sacrococcygeal ligaments are the continuations of the anterior and posterior longitudinal ligaments that stretches along the entire spine. Additionally, the lateral sacrococcygeal ligaments complete the foramina for the last sacral nerve. And, lastly, some fibers of the sacrospinous and sacrotuberous ligaments (arising from the spine of the ischium and the ischial tuberosity respectively) also attach to the coccyx. An extension of the pia mater, the filum terminale, extends from the apex of the conus, and inserts on the coccyx.

...In other words, we'd be pretty fucked without it.
 
AnyOldIron said:
Dixie used to get financial advice from god whilst in the shower. I used to think he was ill, but as long as he's happy and doesn't hurt anyone.....
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Yes, but I no longer get advice from God in the shower on finances. I think it's because I blew all the money I made last time on whores and booze, and He's a little pissed at me about that. I know He wasn't pleased with me disclosing that fact here, I could feel Him giving me that stern God-like look. In fact, I can feel Him looking at me right now like that, so I should just shut up about it.
 
Yes, but I no longer get advice from God in the shower on finances. I think it's because I blew all the money I made last time on whores and booze, and He's a little pissed at me about that. I know He wasn't pleased with me disclosing that fact here, I could feel Him giving me that stern God-like look. In fact, I can feel Him looking at me right now like that, so I should just shut up about it.
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Ha ha ha Are you sure you don't just have an intruder in the house?

And spending the cash he made you on whores and booze is stimulating the economy and private enterprise, and as god is a good American, he would surely approve?
 
Dixie - it's a crock that evolution inevitably "selects out" what we don't need. Why are people still born with Down's, and how about wisdom teeth? There are dozens if not hundreds of examples. Evolution will select out things that are detrimental to survival, but if an organism can still survive w/ an unnecessary organ or genetic mutation, natural selection has a limited role.

I've read your theories on evolution here - you really don't get it.
 
Dixie said:
As I understand it, these are remnants of their land-living ancestors' legs.

What does that have to do with origin of life?
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It shows that those traits that don't hinder reproduction don't disappear immediately. They hang about, like religious belief has. So belief in the 'spiritual' being extant doesn't mean it is an 'essential trait' indicating a higher purpose. It is just humanity's vestigial back leg.
 
Onceler said:
Dixie - it's a crock that evolution inevitably "selects out" what we don't need. Why are people still born with Down's, and how about wisdom teeth? There are dozens if not hundreds of examples. Evolution will select out things that are detrimental to survival, but if an organism can still survive w/ an unnecessary organ or genetic mutation, natural selection has a limited role.

I've read your theories on evolution here - you really don't get it.
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The argument is not that a species can't retain un-needed physical parts, we aren't talking about genetics of the species, which can remain "vestigial" for millions of years, as we can clearly see. My point was regarding the behavioral characteristics of the species. We don't observe salmon swimming upstream because they like to swim, or because they are curious about the unknown. They have a fundamental and required reason for this behavior. No living organism consistently and inherently exhibits any behavior for no reason. Darwin confirmed this through his natural selection theories as well. If the behavior was not important to the species, or needed for survival, it would discard it eventually. The whale doesn't use his legs, does he? No, has lost the ability to do that because the behavior is not needed.... he HAS legs, but he has no need for them and can't/doesn't use them. Much unlike human spirituality.
 
The argument is not that a species can't retain un-needed physical parts, we aren't talking about genetics of the species
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How exactly do you think mummy and daddy whale pass on the vestigial back leg bones to baby whale? Is it a christmas gift? No, it is passed on through its genes.

You are wrong in your assertion that only essential traits remain in the gene pool of any species. This is a common misconception of natural selection. Only traits that hinder reproduction are weeded out by natural selection. Those that are not essential, but don't hinder reproduction, aren't weeded out and can remain in a species.
 
AnyOldIron said:
It shows that those traits that don't hinder reproduction don't disappear immediately. They hang about, like religious belief has. So belief in the 'spiritual' being extant doesn't mean it is an 'essential trait' indicating a higher purpose. It is just humanity's vestigial back leg.
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Those are physical attributes and characteristics, they can hang around for millions of years. No behavioral trait exists in whales that is not needed or required by the species for survival. No living thing behaves in a certain way inherently, without a fundamental purpose. Birds don't fly south for the winter because they like vacations in Florida.
 
AnyOldIron said:
How exactly do you think mummy and daddy whale pass on the vestigial back leg bones to baby whale? Is it a christmas gift? No, it is passed on through its genes.

You are wrong in your assertion that only essential traits remain in the gene pool of any species. This is a common misconception of natural selection. Only traits that hinder reproduction are weeded out by natural selection. Those that are not essential, but don't hinder reproduction, aren't weeded out and can remain in a species.
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Again, you are trying to compare physical attributes with behavioral attributes. Please give us some examples of behavioral attributes (like spirituality) which any species exhibits for no good reason, or just because they fear the unknown?
 
Please give us some examples of behavioral attributes (like spirituality) which any species exhibits for no good reason, or just because they fear the unknown?
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Yawning. Behavioural and vestigial. Or the Palmer grip.

There are plenty of complex behaviours that we have today, that don't benefit evolutionary success but still don't harm it, like religion. The obsessional nature of football fans for a start (British football, not handball)
 
I would imagine you would say genetic to my previous question, as if it is learned then you know the problems with this particular notion. Assuming you say genetic there are holes in your proposal.

You quite happily admit that physical traits can be vestigial, yet you deny that behaviours, similarly passed by genetics, can possibly be vestigial? Why do you claim that the one can, whilst the other can't?

And its not plausible to differentiate behaviours from the corporeal. Behaviours are physical responses to stimulation in the brain. Entirely corporeal.

You started this argument by stating it is a weak argument for the existence of deities and it has got weaker as it has gone along. You state that behavioural traits cannot be superfluous, yet agree that physical traits can be vestigial. Yet behaviours cannot be differentiated from the physical so easily, behaviours are part of the physical. A trout swimming upstream to spawn is following physical mechanisms originating from the trouts brain. And even if this weren't so, vestigial behaviours do exist.

So it is certainly possible, and with Occram's razor, far more likely that religious belief is a vestigial part of humanity's psyche, our former 'explanation tool'.

Surely you can think of better arguments for the existence of deities than this? But they are for another day. Sleep tight Dixie.
 
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