Longest stretch of high unemployment since Great Depression

You may or may not agree w/ the philosophy behind the stimulus & the bailouts; I happen to. There is a vast difference between that kind of spending and the kind Bush engaged in.

I have stated many times that the stimulus was necessary to stop gap. I don't agree with HOW it was spent. That said, there is NO excuse for the continued trillion dollar deficit spending. But you are right, there is a VAST difference between trillion dollar deficits and what Bush did.

Let me guess though, you are going to trot out the fairy tale of 'tax cuts for the rich'??? Even though we know in terms of dollars spent, the majority went to the lower and middle classes. About a third went to 'the rich'. Which is why Dems always harp on per capita.

Is this admin fiscally responsible? No. But the conversation was around the crash specifically, and your attempts to deflect from Bush's total negligence of the economy. The attempts to create apples-to-apples comparisons are pure Bush-apologism desperation.

Again moron... you seem to be completely confused. I have stated repeatedly that Bush was fiscally irresponsible and that I think he was a horrid President. You seem to confuse comments like that with 'apologizing for Bush'????

What I have stated clearly, time and time again, is that Bush's policies/spending DID NOT CAUSE THE BANKING COLLAPSE. He is responsible from the standpoint that he did little to nothing to prevent it. Just as both parties in Congress did little to nothing to prevent it. Again, you get confused when I state things like this. You seem to equate my stating 'neither party did anything to correct the situation' with 'Bush did no wrong'. I think your confusion stems from your repeated attempts to apologize for the Dems involvement.
 
I think you know the answer, Credit Default Swaps and Credit Default Obligations and the whole notion of Securitisation had a great deal to do with it.

Yes, I am quite aware of that. My error was thinking it was the GLB act that allowed derivatives to escape regulation/monitoring. It was actually a second act a year later. The 'Commodity Futures modernization act' of 2000 that did so.
 
So, just to recap: Bush was a horrid President and leader. He was fiscally irresponsible to the extreme, spent money frivolously, didn't care about deficits and was in general a poor economic steward. He repeatedly ignored obvious warnings that the housing bubble was unsustainable, and turned a blind eye to the economy in general. He was economically negligent and basically did nothing on that front.

But, he didn't do anything specifically to cause the banking crisis.

Got it. I'm glad we had this conversation.
 
So, just to recap: Bush was a horrid President and leader. He was fiscally irresponsible to the extreme, spent money frivolously, didn't care about deficits and was in general a poor economic steward. He repeatedly ignored obvious warnings that the housing bubble was unsustainable, and turned a blind eye to the economy in general. He was economically negligent and basically did nothing on that front.

conceded.......now, how about the fact that Obama has trumped that to the extreme?......
 
So, just to recap: Bush was a horrid President and leader. He was fiscally irresponsible to the extreme, spent money frivolously, didn't care about deficits and was in general a poor economic steward. He repeatedly ignored obvious warnings that the housing bubble was unsustainable, and turned a blind eye to the economy in general. He was economically negligent and basically did nothing on that front.

But, he didn't do anything specifically to cause the banking crisis.

Got it. I'm glad we had this conversation.

Let me recap your argument....

'The Democrats did nothing wrong. It was all Bush. All Bush I tell you. Please ignore the policies enacted by Clinton. Please ignore the fact that Dems controlled Congress for two years prior to the crash and did nothing either. '

Thanks.

As for your nonsense above. Seriously... do you get tired from all the straw men you create?
 
Let me recap your argument....

'The Democrats did nothing wrong. It was all Bush. All Bush I tell you. Please ignore the policies enacted by Clinton. Please ignore the fact that Dems controlled Congress for two years prior to the crash and did nothing either. '



Thanks.

As for your nonsense above. Seriously... do you get tired from all the straw men you create?

So what about the period from 2001-2006 when many were warning about the dangers of under regulation of the securities and derivatives markets?

In 2000, while working at JPMorgan Chase, Li published a paper in The Journal of Fixed Income titled "On Default Correlation: A Copula Function Approach." (In statistics, a copula is used to couple the behavior of two or more variables.) Using some relatively simple math—by Wall Street standards, anyway—Li came up with an ingenious way to model default correlation without even looking at historical default data. Instead, he used market data about the prices of instruments known as credit default swaps. If you're an investor, you have a choice these days: You can either lend directly to borrowers or sell investors credit default swaps, insurance against those same borrowers defaulting. Either way, you get a regular income stream—interest payments or insurance payments—and either way, if the borrower defaults, you lose a lot of money. The returns on both strategies are nearly identical, but because an unlimited number of credit default swaps can be sold against each borrower, the supply of swaps isn't constrained the way the supply of bonds is, so the CDS market managed to grow extremely rapidly. Though credit default swaps were relatively new when Li's paper came out, they soon became a bigger and more liquid market than the bonds on which they were based.

When the price of a credit default swap goes up, that indicates that default risk has risen. Li's breakthrough was that instead of waiting to assemble enough historical data about actual defaults, which are rare in the real world, he used historical prices from the CDS market. It's hard to build a historical model to predict Alice's or Britney's behavior, but anybody could see whether the price of credit default swaps on Britney tended to move in the same direction as that on Alice. If it did, then there was a strong correlation between Alice's and Britney's default risks, as priced by the market. Li wrote a model that used price rather than real-world default data as a shortcut (making an implicit assumption that financial markets in general, and CDS markets in particular, can price default risk correctly).

It was a brilliant simplification of an intractable problem. And Li didn't just radically dumb down the difficulty of working out correlations; he decided not to even bother trying to map and calculate all the nearly infinite relationships between the various loans that made up a pool. What happens when the number of pool members increases or when you mix negative correlations with positive ones? Never mind all that, he said. The only thing that matters is the final correlation number—one clean, simple, all-sufficient figure that sums up everything.

The effect on the securitization market was electric. Armed with Li's formula, Wall Street's quants saw a new world of possibilities. And the first thing they did was start creating a huge number of brand-new triple-A securities. Using Li's copula approach meant that ratings agencies like Moody's—or anybody wanting to model the risk of a tranche—no longer needed to puzzle over the underlying securities. All they needed was that correlation number, and out would come a rating telling them how safe or risky the tranche was.

As a result, just about anything could be bundled and turned into a triple-A bond—corporate bonds, bank loans, mortgage-backed securities, whatever you liked. The consequent pools were often known as collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs. You could tranche that pool and create a triple-A security even if none of the components were themselves triple-A. You could even take lower-rated tranches of other CDOs, put them in a pool, and tranche them—an instrument known as a CDO-squared, which at that point was so far removed from any actual underlying bond or loan or mortgage that no one really had a clue what it included. But it didn't matter. All you needed was Li's copula function.

The CDS and CDO markets grew together, feeding on each other. At the end of 2001, there was $920 billion in credit default swaps outstanding. By the end of 2007, that number had skyrocketed to more than $62 trillion. The CDO market, which stood at $275 billion in 2000, grew to $4.7 trillion by 2006.
At the heart of it all was Li's formula. When you talk to market participants, they use words like beautiful, simple, and, most commonly, tractable. It could be applied anywhere, for anything, and was quickly adopted not only by banks packaging new bonds but also by traders and hedge funds dreaming up complex trades between those bonds.

The damage was foreseeable and, in fact, foreseen. In 1998, before Li had even invented his copula function, Paul Wilmott wrote that "the correlations between financial quantities are notoriously unstable." Wilmott, a quantitative-finance consultant and lecturer, argued that no theory should be built on such unpredictable parameters. And he wasn't alone. During the boom years, everybody could reel off reasons why the Gaussian copula function wasn't perfect. Li's approach made no allowance for unpredictability: It assumed that correlation was a constant rather than something mercurial. Investment banks would regularly phone Stanford's Duffie and ask him to come in and talk to them about exactly what Li's copula was. Every time, he would warn them that it was not suitable for use in risk management or valuation.

In hindsight, ignoring those warnings looks foolhardy. But at the time, it was easy. Banks dismissed them, partly because the managers empowered to apply the brakes didn't understand the arguments between various arms of the quant universe. Besides, they were making too much money to stop.

In finance, you can never reduce risk outright; you can only try to set up a market in which people who don't want risk sell it to those who do. But in the CDO market, people used the Gaussian copula model to convince themselves they didn't have any risk at all, when in fact they just didn't have any risk 99 percent of the time. The other 1 percent of the time they blew up. Those explosions may have been rare, but they could destroy all previous gains, and then some.
Li's copula function was used to price hundreds of billions of dollars' worth of CDOs filled with mortgages. And because the copula function used CDS prices to calculate correlation, it was forced to confine itself to looking at the period of time when those credit default swaps had been in existence: less than a decade, a period when house prices soared. Naturally, default correlations were very low in those years. But when the mortgage boom ended abruptly and home values started falling across the country, correlations soared.

Bankers securitizing mortgages knew that their models were highly sensitive to house-price appreciation. If it ever turned negative on a national scale, a lot of bonds that had been rated triple-A, or risk-free, by copula-powered computer models would blow up. But no one was willing to stop the creation of CDOs, and the big investment banks happily kept on building more, drawing their correlation data from a period when real estate only went up.

"Everyone was pinning their hopes on house prices continuing to rise," says Kai Gilkes of the credit research firm CreditSights, who spent 10 years working at ratings agencies. "When they stopped rising, pretty much everyone was caught on the wrong side, because the sensitivity to house prices was huge. And there was just no getting around it. Why didn't rating agencies build in some cushion for this sensitivity to a house-price-depreciation scenario? Because if they had, they would have never rated a single mortgage-backed CDO."

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all



http://independent.academia.edu/Raj...he_Brewing_Storm_in_sub-prime_and_CDO_markets
 
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So what about the period from 2001-2006 when many were warning about the dangers of under regulation of the securities and derivatives markets?

I was one of those. As I stated, Bush did nothing to correct the problems created by the previous Congress and Clinton. Largely because the make up of Congress stayed pretty much the same. I see the errors of both parties. I point out the Dems errors more because of the non-stop 'Bush did it' comments from those who wish to ignore the Dems hand in the financial sector meltdown.
 
I was one of those. As I stated, Bush did nothing to correct the problems created by the previous Congress and Clinton. Largely because the make up of Congress stayed pretty much the same. I see the errors of both parties. I point out the Dems errors more because of the non-stop 'Bush did it' comments from those who wish to ignore the Dems hand in the financial sector meltdown.

Maybe it's me but that is the first time that I've realised exactly what you are saying, it would seem that we are pretty much agreed as to the causes.
 
Maybe it's me but that is the first time that I've realised exactly what you are saying, it would seem that we are pretty much agreed as to the causes.

I think for the most part at least, we do.

1) The repeal of Glass Steagall allowed investment banks and retail banks to merge. This took away the natural firewall between them.

2) The CFMA of 2000 allowed derivatives to go without regulation and supervision. This resulted in trillions (we don't actually know the real numbers here, because of the lack of regs/oversight) in derivative investments being formed and sold. Predominantly credit default swaps.

3) The low interest rate environment from 2000-2008 was foolish (at best)

4) Neither party did a friggin thing to try and correct the problems, despite the mounting evidence of the impending blow up.

5) The SEC decision in 2007 to remove the uptick rule was the final straw.
 
I think for the most part at least, we do.

1) The repeal of Glass Steagall allowed investment banks and retail banks to merge. This took away the natural firewall between them.

2) The CFMA of 2000 allowed derivatives to go without regulation and supervision. This resulted in trillions (we don't actually know the real numbers here, because of the lack of regs/oversight) in derivative investments being formed and sold. Predominantly credit default swaps.

3) The low interest rate environment from 2000-2008 was foolish (at best)

4) Neither party did a friggin thing to try and correct the problems, despite the mounting evidence of the impending blow up.

5) The SEC decision in 2007 to remove the uptick rule was the final straw.

Don't forget the Oxley-Sarbanes Act which lulled people into a false sense of security that something was being done after WorldCom and Enron.
 
Don't forget the Oxley-Sarbanes Act which lulled people into a false sense of security that something was being done after WorldCom and Enron.

Sarbanes-Oxley... is one of the biggest pieces of legislative shit to have come out of Congress since the repeal of Glass Steagall.

I liken it to the Dodd-Frank bill that recently passed. It does little to solve the problems of the financial sector, but it was championed with a lot of chest pounding about how it will protect the little guy from those meanies on Wall Street. Yet little has changed, other than about 1000 new government agencies that will do little to prevent a repeat of what occurred.
 
No, I mean the OP about the high unemployment rate. Do you believe the causation for that all occurred since January of 2009?

I think, if you have been paying attention to this thread, you will know that while I acknowledge Bush overspent the federal budget during his administration I believe Obama has not only done nothing to improve the employment situation, he has done a number of things that have made it worse which would include $5trillion plus in deficit spending, repeated extensions of unemployment compensation and creating an iceberg shaped national health care plan that will titanic any future job creation.....
 
So what about the period from 2001-2006 when many were warning about the dangers of under regulation of the securities and derivatives markets?

????.....you mean the dangers that Barney Frank and the CBC declared race baiting?.....it was Republicans who raised those warnings and Democrats who shot them down......
 
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Sarbanes-Oxley... is one of the biggest pieces of legislative shit to have come out of Congress since the repeal of Glass Steagall.

I liken it to the Dodd-Frank bill that recently passed. It does little to solve the problems of the financial sector, but it was championed with a lot of chest pounding about how it will protect the little guy from those meanies on Wall Street. Yet little has changed, other than about 1000 new government agencies that will do little to prevent a repeat of what occurred.

In which case, I'm sorry to report, we appear to be in total agreement.
 
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