Baby killers cause Komen to cave

“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” —Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" It would appear that refers to the spirit and the spirit can be placed in any fetus. The only other conclusion to be drawn is man can thwart God's will by having an abortion. If God wants to send a savior and a particular woman has an abortion does that mean God can not send a savior? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

If you want to talk religion I would conclude if God is an all-knowing God then He knows if a woman will have an abortion and not place a spirit in that particular fetus.
 
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" It would appear that refers to the spirit and the spirit can be placed in any fetus. The only other conclusion to be drawn is man can thwart God's will by having an abortion. If God wants to send a savior and a particular woman has an abortion does that mean God can not send a savior? Doesn't make much sense, does it?

If you want to talk religion I would conclude if God is an all-knowing God then He knows if a woman will have an abortion and not place a spirit in that particular fetus.

i read the label on the christian god and it includes the phrase 'omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent'

and, as you pointed out, the christian and all other gods/goddesses permit abortion because they occur
 
Exactly, AFTER 266 days.

Pregnancy is a process. Everything in this world takes time. We would never refer to anything that may occur/develop in the future as having occurred and that's where anti-abortionists go off track. We don't refer to kindergarten kids as doctors even though some may very well become doctors. It takes time for a baby/human being to become a baby/human being.

You are such a fucking idiot.

An embryo, fetus, baby, infant, toddler, preadolescence, teen, young adult, adult, senior citizen... ALL describe a STAGE in the human beings development. That is the point morons like you fail to grasp.

Would you proclaim that a toddler is not a human being simply because it is not as developed as a teenager? No, you wouldn't.

So why do you insist upon using the amount of development as an excuse to dehumanize the unborn child?
 
You keep pretending that something dying means it never was alive. That is complete bullshit. As stated, AND IGNORED BY YOU, by your definition NOTHING could ever have the components to carry on the process of life. Because by your definition, the death of the organism means it didn't contain 'the necessary components to carry on the processes of life'. You fucking moron.

Ambiguous? You mean like saying something doesn't 'have the necessary components for life' yet FAILING to provide ANY evidence of such? You mean something like that? What 'components' are missing?

YOUR OWN SITE stated the main reasons for spontaneous abortions. But you ignore that because it doesn't fit into your little dehumanization fairy tale.

Funny how you didn't continue on with your little line above... because had you continued to the fertilized egg cell... what would DNA have told us? You fucking moron.

ROFLMAO... wow... just wow. Read what you wrote above and stop and THINK about it for a minute. It is so unbelievably retarded, it makes me think you are Cypress or Bfgrn.

Again, you are just making shit up. You continue to walk closer and closer to the truth, but upon seeing reality, you pull back into your nonsense. It DOES matter that DNA can tell us that a fertilized egg cell is human. It does matter that most spontaneous abortions are not due to genetics (which was your original claim). Saying that because it died means it didn't have these mysterious 'components' you keep mentioning organisms 'must have to carry on the processes of life'.

Your entire argument has been debunked time and again. But because you want to dehumanize the child, you will continue to refuse to see the truth.

and AGAIN, you are wrong. DNA dictates that they are all human beings. Some of these human beings are going to die before implantation. Some will die during the pregnancy. Some will die as infants. Some will die as toddlers, some as teens, some as young adults, some as senior citizens. The fact that they do not all live the same period of time doesn't magically take away their humanity.

I can't help but also point out that you have offered NO proof or evidence AT ALL to back up your claims that they aren't human. You simply stomp your feet, shout 'they died, thus they can't be human' and act as if that is evidence. Fucking moron.

As I explained in msg 314 a DNA test will determine human material. It can not determine what is and what isn't a human being as I explained regarding the corpse.

If you want to believe 50% of human beings die within hours of coming into existence, go for it. If you want to believe a group of cells invisible to the naked eye holds the same value as a 20 or 30 year old women, go for it. You're overwhelming me with your idiocy.
 
You are such a fucking idiot.

An embryo, fetus, baby, infant, toddler, preadolescence, teen, young adult, adult, senior citizen... ALL describe a STAGE in the human beings development. That is the point morons like you fail to grasp.

Would you proclaim that a toddler is not a human being simply because it is not as developed as a teenager? No, you wouldn't.

So why do you insist upon using the amount of development as an excuse to dehumanize the unborn child?

Because the unborn child is not a human being. A baby, infant, toddler, preadolescence, teen, young adult, adult and senior citizens do not live inside another human being's body while embryos and fetuses do. Our society is built on the understanding human beings are individual creatures with bodies separate from each other. From authorizing medical procedures to incarceration it's understood each body is owed by one individual. No sharing of bodies. Well, not unless invited, if you know what I mean. ;)
 
As I explained in msg 314 a DNA test will determine human material. It can not determine what is and what isn't a human being as I explained regarding the corpse.

And as it has been explained to you before 10000000 times, the above is 100% FALSE.

If you want to believe 50% of human beings die within hours of coming into existence, go for it.

Since genetically speaking that is 100% FACTUAL, then yes, I will believe it. You go on believing in your magic baby fairy.

If you want to believe a group of cells invisible to the naked eye holds the same value as a 20 or 30 year old women, go for it. You're overwhelming me with your idiocy.

See apple, the above is what the argument really is about. When you try to dehumanize the child, you look like a fucking retard. Bottom line, the above is what the argument is really about. Do we afford the same rights to the fertilized egg cell that we do the woman. THAT is entirely subjective and what the discussion is about.
 
An organism has to be able to carry on the processes of life. We do not know if the reproduction resulted in something that could carry on the processes of life and, again, knowing 50% don't carry on the processes of life it's logical to conclude some, if not all of them, were faulty. Faulty to the degree they could not carry on the processes of life. Faulty to the degree they could not be considered organisms.

The organism DID carry on this process if any other cell is produced, because inorganic "materials" CAN'T reproduce! It's impossible!

You continue to completely misinterpret the definition. You wish to argue that, even though the organism met the criteria, it didn't continue to meet the criteria, therefore it was never a living organism, and that is FALSE... NOT TRUE... WRONG! There is no stipulation in the requirement calling for the organism to continue the process indefinitely, or for any given amount of time. Once it reproduced, it carried on the process of life and became a living organism, and whatever may have happened afterward, doesn't matter, doesn't change the fact it was an organism for that moment. Once it dies, it is no longer a living organism. This might happen immediately following the replication of the first cell, or it could happen 115 years later, when the organism is blowing out its birthday candles, it doesn't matter when the organism dies, that has no bearing on whether it was a living organism.
 
Because the unborn child is not a human being. A baby, infant, toddler, preadolescence, teen, young adult, adult and senior citizens do not live inside another human being's body while embryos and fetuses do. Our society is built on the understanding human beings are individual creatures with bodies separate from each other. From authorizing medical procedures to incarceration it's understood each body is owed by one individual. No sharing of bodies. Well, not unless invited, if you know what I mean. ;)

Therefore, it is okay to refute science and deny that it is a human life, so you can kill it with a clear conscience for residing somewhere it has absolutely no control over? Maybe we should declare homeless people "non-organisms" so we can kill them off? Brilliant Hitler!
 
Let's talk biology. Take two handkerchiefs each containing a sample of DNA. Run the tests. Both tests will conclude the DNA is human material.

let's talk about what it CAN do.....it can tell you the unborn child is not the father.....it can tell you the unborn child is not the mother.....it can tell you the unborn child is a unique human being, and individual distinguishable from every other human being......
 
And as it has been explained to you before 10000000 times, the above is 100% FALSE.

You're being completely illogical. I'll try to explain it one more time.

Two samples are taken to a lab for DNA tests. One sample is taken from the liver of a living, breathing human being and the other sample is taken from a liver of a cadaver that was removed shortly after death. Both tests show they're human material. Neither DNA test will determine whether the sample came from a living person or one who recently passed away which means DNA can not prove what is a human being as obviously the cadaver was not carrying on the processes of life. DNA determines human material only. Not whether something is a human being as, obviously, a liver is not a human being.

Since genetically speaking that is 100% FACTUAL, then yes, I will believe it. You go on believing in your magic baby fairy.

Genetically speaking. And my coffee table is an oak tree, genetically speaking. And when I sit on my back deck will I be sitting in a cedar tree or "on" a cedar tree?

When you order bacon do you ask for two strips of “sus scrofa domesticus”?

See apple, the above is what the argument really is about. When you try to dehumanize the child, you look like a fucking retard. Bottom line, the above is what the argument is really about. Do we afford the same rights to the fertilized egg cell that we do the woman. THAT is entirely subjective and what the discussion is about.

I know that's what the argument is about; certain people wanting to devalue a woman to the point of being comparable to a group of cells invisible to the naked eye. That's why I wrote it.

As for rights being subjective surely all the discussion regarding gay marriage has enlightened you to the fact discrimination is not usually acceptable and if/when it comes to the point where a group of cells is considered a human being any law suggesting a woman has more of a right to life than another human being is going to be tossed in the garbage. Besides its obvious vileness, legally sanctioning one human being more valuable than another, one human being a little less human, (sounds like a familiar road) what damage to a woman could possibly justify the taking of another human being's life?

Now, there are people who talk about self-defence, that should an unborn mass of cells be considered a human being a woman will always have the right to abort if her life is in jeopardy. The State also has a right to protect the mass of cells classified as a human being. If a woman has the right to take the life of an innocent human being to save her own life do you recall the burning building example I have previously mentioned?

Here's a refresher. Let's say a woman and her 10 year old son are standing on a balcony of a burning building waiting for the fire department. The building is old and the balcony is starting to come away from the wall due to the vibrations caused as the interior of the building collapses as it burns. The woman knows (for argument, let’s say she’s a structural engineer) :) that the balcony can not hold both her and her son. Does she have the right to push her son off the balcony to certain death in order to save her own life?

If no, what is the difference between killing her son at 10 weeks of gestational age vs at 10 years of age, assuming a 10 week old fetus is a human being?

Let’s say a woman’s doctor tells her she has uncontrolled diabetes aggravated by the pregnancy and she could lose partial eye sight or, if severe enough, could result in the amputation of extremities such as toes, a partial foot, etc. The woman wants an abortion. Does the loss or partial eye sight or a few toes justify killing an innocent human being?

While these situations may be rare they will arise and my reason for asking is I’m trying to determine the value you place on human life.

Doctors, like all professionals, hold differing opinions. Will the Ex-boyfriend be allowed to compel the woman to be examined by another doctor? Does the Ex-boyfriend have a case saying he objects to the murder of his son based on the possibility his Ex may have to wear glasses if she continues the pregnancy?

Will there be national standards or, say, a woman in Mississippi will be compelled to bear a child regardless of the consequences whereas a woman in Tennessee will have options? If she travels to Tennessee for an abortion will the FBI get involved due to a possible interstate crime?

These and many other questions have to be addressed before anyone considers bestowing the designation of human being on anything. The reason is once questions are raised we quickly see the absurdity of it all. Classifying something as a human being and then twisting and contorting laws in order to adjust to reality, including what amounts to preventive murder, devalues every other human being.
 
The organism DID carry on this process if any other cell is produced, because inorganic "materials" CAN'T reproduce! It's impossible!

You continue to completely misinterpret the definition. You wish to argue that, even though the organism met the criteria, it didn't continue to meet the criteria, therefore it was never a living organism, and that is FALSE... NOT TRUE... WRONG! There is no stipulation in the requirement calling for the organism to continue the process indefinitely, or for any given amount of time. Once it reproduced, it carried on the process of life and became a living organism, and whatever may have happened afterward, doesn't matter, doesn't change the fact it was an organism for that moment. Once it dies, it is no longer a living organism. This might happen immediately following the replication of the first cell, or it could happen 115 years later, when the organism is blowing out its birthday candles, it doesn't matter when the organism dies, that has no bearing on whether it was a living organism.

It matters if the division was faulty because that means it didn't do the job properly.

Again, when this topic is discussed logic is thrown out the window. Every day language and common sense is ignored. If 50% of fertilized cells spontaneously abort common sense tells us at least some of them are so faulty they don't qualify as having replicated. There has to be some basic standard by which to judge if the replication was indeed a replication and not some freak of nature. It doesn't make sense that 50% of properly replicated cells spontaneously abort and until we have proof of such comparing those cells to living, breathing, healthy women is an atrocity.

In other words were those cells that replicated capable of carrying on the processes of life and the logical and reasonable answer is some of them were not. It's reasonable to conclude they never were. They never qualified as an organism for a second. It's not about them being an organism and then dying. It's about them never qualifying as an organism and until we have proof otherwise comparing the value of a woman to those cells is taking misogyny to the nth degree.
 
Therefore, it is okay to refute science and deny that it is a human life, so you can kill it with a clear conscience for residing somewhere it has absolutely no control over? Maybe we should declare homeless people "non-organisms" so we can kill them off? Brilliant Hitler!

It's not about refuting science. Science tells me my coffee table is made of oak, however, my coffee table is not an oak tree.

The same applies to embryos, fertilized cells, etc. DNA tells us they're composed of human material. It does not say they are human beings.
 
The question of whether or not abortion is murder typically leads to asking "when" is abortion murder, which in turn eventually leads to asking what is a baby and what isn't yet a baby, but merely a zygote, an embryo or a fetus.

You most likely have good sense of judgment and perception, so instead of letting other people try to draw conclusions for you, draw your own conclusion on whether or not abortion is murder by using this quick and simple test.




http://www.godvoter.org/abortion-is-murder.html
 
Originally Posted by apple0154

Let's talk biology. Take two handkerchiefs each containing a sample of DNA. Run the tests. Both tests will conclude the DNA is human material.

let's talk about what it CAN do.....it can tell you the unborn child is not the father.....it can tell you the unborn child is not the mother.....it can tell you the unborn child is a unique human being, and individual distinguishable from every other human being......

What happens in a case where a human being has two sets of DNA? Are there two human beings living in one body?
 
It matters if the division was faulty because that means it didn't do the job properly.

No it doesn't. The fact that it divided cells means it wasn't inorganic. Really simple.

If the fertilization results in production of just one cell, it is reproduction, and thus becomes an "organism" by definition. It has carried on the process of life. Nothing else is required, no continuation of the process is needed, if a cell is produced, the criteria has been met, whether the cell produced is defective or not, because inorganic material can't produce cells.
 
It's not about refuting science. Science tells me my coffee table is made of oak, however, my coffee table is not an oak tree.

The same applies to embryos, fertilized cells, etc. DNA tells us they're composed of human material. It does not say they are human beings.

However, science does tell us it is alive, and DNA tells us that living creature is a separate human life from the mother. Whether it is a "being" is a matter of philosophy, not of science. The idea that at any moment it suddenly becomes a "being" is only answered by opinion.

Just as science can tell us whether or not the oak table is still living.

This argument is one of the weakest in your repertoire on this particular subject. That the organism is living and growing tells us it is alive, the DNA tells us it is human.

Let's say some weirdo comes in and cuts off your arm. Nobody would confuse it with a human life. First the arm is no longer living and growing, second it isn't an organism, only a limb, all these things can be found by testing. Cancer is somewhat like that, a limb, however it is very different as the DNA shows it is something other than "a" human. While it is living, it is not "human" as the DNA no longer indicates the correct number of genes, etc. Tests can tell is that it firstly isn't a separate life and then secondly the DNA of a cancer cell is mutated so much so it shows it to no longer be human. While it may be "living" it certainly isn't a separate life, nor is it human. The DNA can tell us with testing, that the cancer originated with a human cell, but is now a cancerous cell and no longer human. Cancer replicates differently than normal cells, it is what defines it.
 
What happens in a case where a human being has two sets of DNA? Are there two human beings living in one body?

This is such an extremely RARE thing, that scientists are generally skeptical over the validity. I think the only reported case was in India, and the technological handling of the DNA was dubious, so it becomes one of those 'urban legend' kind of things. Typically, people have one DNA code each, it's impossible to have more.... and we can also tell the organism created at conception is a unique organism because they have different DNA.
 
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