This from the guy who has to ask who the benificiary is in a single payer system?
For future reference, the beneficiary is paid by the insurer.
Government run healthcare... a Greek tragedy.
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This from the guy who has to ask who the benificiary is in a single payer system?
For future reference, the beneficiary is paid by the insurer.
Bfgrn
New member
Health care IS the A-number one economic issue this country faces and the A-number one economic issue families in this country face. If people like Paul Ryan and the right are able to privatize Medicare, it will plunge millions of seniors into poverty.
You should have quit while you were just stupid, now you have revealed you are a moron.
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
You might be able to argue that the national debt is the #1 economic issue but even if that was true health care would still be #2 and it plays a significant role in our current national debt.
Jobs is the #1 issue. The national debt isn't even a close second, but the debt issue is largely a health care issue. Medicare and Medicaid costs are the biggest debt problem on a going forward basis and the increased costs are the result of (1) aging population and (2) increased health care costs:
If you deal with the health care cost issue, the national debt problem largely goes away.
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The Almighty
The point... again... is that the government of Greece kept promising its constituents the world and could not pay for it. Period.
LMAO... so the borrower (Greece) couldn't stick to a budget, couldn't live within its means, kept outspending revenue and you think the BANKS should take a hit for it?
Or your other option is that Greece simply default on its debts.
Seriously... you fiscal liberals are friggin crackpots.
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The Almighty
Let's pretend context doesn't matter. Then you would have a point. Since context does matter though, here is the context in which I made my statement;
Originally Posted by SmarterThanYou
if you're fine with my property being stolen, i'm fine with you dying because you can't afford medical care. If you won't protect all of my rights, why should I give a damn about yours?
Monkeys that find and don't share food are beaten to death by the others monkeys. Monkeys have a more advanced morality than you do.
Yeah, sorry, but that doesn't change the context of your 'moral' code. The first two have nothing to do with your analysis of the Monkey's moral code.
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The Almighty
The insurance industry is certainly not perfect, but you pretend that the government would simply allow everyone to have any and all medical care/treatments that they wanted. It isn't going to happen. Period.
If the government would allow private insurance to be sold across state borders, then you would reduce that admin cost. You also ignore the fact that the private side subsidizes the government side. When you eliminate the private side, that subsidy goes away.
When you get every country to report mortality in the same manner, then you can compare.
Yet we see in Obamacare exactly what I stated above... MORE government control... and NOTHING to reduce health care COSTS.
The point . . . again . . . is that Greece made good on its promise to provide universal healthcare to its entire population for substantially less than the United States paid to cover a whole hell of a lot less people. The present problems with Greek health care are a result of the debt problem.
I hate to break it to you, SF (and really I'm quite embarrassed that I have to tell you this), but that's the way the world works. Banks who lend to people who cannot repay their debts take a hit and borrowers who have less than stellar credit ratings pay a risk premium because of it. The banks made loans to Greece that they should never have made and should pay the price for doing so. I'd love to hear your theory as to why a lender who makes bad loans shouldn't suffer any losses.
What's going on in Greece right now is insane. As a condition for being loaned more money (to make good on its pre-existing debt), Greece is slashing its budgets and raising taxes, only to end up requiring more money to pay its debts because the austerity program is shrinking the economy and lowering revenues, which in turn requires more austerity and on and on and on. It isn't working and will eventually lead to either (1) the banks taking a substantial haircut or (2) default, but instead of just doing that now the Greek people are forced to needlessly suffer for a while.
Bfgrn
New member
Yea, everybody knows medieval bloodletting cures patients! We can turn this recession into a full blown depression, just like Hoover, Mellon and the 'Austrian' school did!
Economic Policy Under Hoover
Throughout this decline—which carried real GNP per worker down to a level 40 percent below that which it had attained in 1929, and which saw the unemployment rise to take in more than a quarter of the labor force—the government did not try to prop up aggregate demand. The only expansionary fiscal policy action undertaken was the Veterans’ Bonus, passed over President Hoover’s veto. That aside, the full employment budget surplus did not fall over 1929–33.
The Federal Reserve did not use open market operations to keep the nominal money supply from falling. Instead, its only significant systematic use of open market operations was in the other direction: to raise interest rates and discourage gold outflows after the United Kingdom abandoned the gold standard in the fall of 1931.
This inaction did not come about because they did not understand the tools of monetary policy. This inaction did not come about because the Federal Reserve was constrained by the necessity of defending the gold standard. The Federal Reserve knew what it was doing: it was letting the private sector handle the Depression in its own fashion. It saw the private sector’s task as the “liquidation” of the American economy. It feared that expansionary monetary policy would impede the necessary private-sector process of readjustment.
Contemplating in retrospect the wreck of his country’s economy and his own presidency, Herbert Hoover wrote bitterly in his memoirs about those who had advised inaction during the downslide:
The ‘leave-it-alone liquidationists’ headed by Secretary of the Treasury Mellon…felt that government must keep its hands off and let the slump liquidate itself. Mr. Mellon had only one formula: ‘Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate’.…He held that even panic was not altogether a bad thing. He said: ‘It will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people’.
The Federal Reserve took almost no steps to halt the slide into the Great Depression over 1929–33. Instead, the Federal Reserve acted as if appropriate policy was not to try to avoid the oncoming Great Depression, but to allow it to run its course and “liquidate” the unprofitable portions of the private economy.
In adopting such “liquidationist” policies, the Federal Reserve was merely following the recommendations provided by an economic theory of depressions that was in fact common before the Keynesian Revolution and was held by economists like Friedrich Hayek, Lionel Robbins, and Joseph Schumpeter.
Mere parsimony is not economy. Expense, and great expense, may be an essential part in true economy.
Edmund Burke
USFREEDOM911
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
This has been obvious about you, for a long time; but I believe everyone was waiting for you to admit, then point it out and be possibly seen as being insensitive.
Since you have finally admitted to your problem, maybe we can now start on your recovery.
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Darla
Great post DH.
Disillusioned
New member
I'd Love to hear why a person who takes out bad loans shouldn't have to pay them back. Greece is supposed to be a responsible country, you know a country, one of those things that is supposed to be permanent, stable. For some reason you think it's totally ok for Greece to turn around to the banks who took a chance on them and say "JK guys, guess I won't be paying you what I owe after all, but really it's your fault for trusting me when I signed a deal."
zappasguitar
Well-known member
Then the same should go for businesses who made deals with unions in the past.
They signed agreements in good faith, but now want to whine that these legacy pension funds are destroying their company.
Is it okay for the company to go to their former employees and say: "JK guys, guess I won't be paying you what I owe after all, but really it's your fault for trusting me when I signed a deal."?
They should pay them back. The issue isn't a matter of what should happen, it's a matter of what can happen. Greece cannot pay its debts. The issue is what happens as a result of that. Greece paid an interest premium on the loans it took out precisely because there was a risk that it could not pay the loans back and would default. If it defaults, well, the banks will have to get in line. If the banks want to avoid that, they should take their losses, write down the debt and move on.
And, yes, I do think it is totally OK for a debtor who cannot pays its debts to say to its creditors "sorry, I can'y pay you all back." It happens! The world is an imperfect place. Borrowers who are higher risk pay higher interest because everyone involved recognizes the inherent risk involved in lending money.
It's really is frightening that I have to explain this to people.
SmarterthanYou
rebel
don't you think you should be blaming that on the courts and judges that said they could forget about those payment promises?
zappasguitar
Well-known member
Nope...if corporations hadn't broken their promises to begin with, the issue would never have wound up in court.
SmarterthanYou
rebel
now that is as stupid as protesting wall street because congress is too easy to pay off.
zappasguitar
Well-known member
Disillusioned
New member
The "world isn't a perfect place" excuse doesn't really fly here. Just because it does happen doesn't mean it should happen, when you're broke you're broke but until then you owe people what you promised them, what it comes down to is simple, don't take loans you can't pay off, at that point you're just stealing from banks. Take responsibility for what you promised and handle it. Don't just go with the "whoops" excuse.
Disillusioned
New member
By that logic you should blame the court for the crimes commited by a repeat offender unable to be convicted, rather than the offender themselves. The corporations broke the contract, it's their fault.