8 Facts That Prove the Tea Party Is Ignorant of the U.S. Constitution

apple0154 said:
So you're saying promoting the general welfare and securing the blessings of liberty have nothing to do with the health of the citizens?
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absolutely, that is what i'm saying. mandating people buy some product or service, whether it helps people or not, is not promoting the general welfare, despite the brutally tortured definition you've given it.

apple0154 said:
People wouldn't be able to afford major medical procedures unless they were insured.
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for some of this, you're correct, however, medical costs are prohibitively high right now because of the control and monopoly that health insurance companies have over our health care right now.



apple0154 said:
It's not an invalid argument. You said having the government do things for people is not good.
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correct. the government makes things sound great and awesome, when in reality it's piss poor and substandard. the government does not have any accountability when they screw up, so they don't care. don't give me the bullshit about 'mommy government working for our benefit'. they don't, plain and simple. anything other than that is fantasy.

apple0154 said:
The real problem is taxes. Let's face it if the government said medical care was free and could absolutely guarantee no tax increases no one would complain. The problem is how the taxes are spent. People have consigned themselves to accept governments that spend taxes any way they want and, therefore, don't want government involved in anything else and that's what Obama is trying to change.
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the bolded part is our countries biggest issue. the people have become apathetic and the government loves it that way. it allows them to do more of what they want instead of what we want.

apple0154 said:
Make medical care a priority. If national defence is a priority, the protection of people's lives, then surely medical care is a priority. Again, how many people have died due to terrorist attacks compared to the known 45,000 who die every year due to a lack of medical care?
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how many people have died because of that same government? the less government in our lives, the better off we'll be.

apple0154 said:
Where is the logic? Well, the logic is the wealthy folks can afford medical insurance so that's not a concern to them. They will never die due to a lack of medical care so it's not a priority. They have a greater chance of dying due to terrorists than they do to a lack of medical care so that's why government policy is the way it is. However, those who can not afford medical care have many times the probability of dying from a lack of medical care than they due from a terrorist attack.
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just one more incentive for people to remain underachievers is all. you might be happy with mediocrity, I am not.
 
So you're saying promoting the general welfare and securing the blessings of liberty have nothing to do with the health of the citizens?
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Article 1 Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

....................I don't see HEALTH CARE listed there, do you????
 
SmarterThanYou said:
absolutely, that is what i'm saying. mandating people buy some product or service, whether it helps people or not, is not promoting the general welfare, despite the brutally tortured definition you've given it.


for some of this, you're correct, however, medical costs are prohibitively high right now because of the control and monopoly that health insurance companies have over our health care right now.



correct. the government makes things sound great and awesome, when in reality it's piss poor and substandard. the government does not have any accountability when they screw up, so they don't care. don't give me the bullshit about 'mommy government working for our benefit'. they don't, plain and simple. anything other than that is fantasy.

the bolded part is our countries biggest issue. the people have become apathetic and the government loves it that way. it allows them to do more of what they want instead of what we want.

how many people have died because of that same government? the less government in our lives, the better off we'll be.


just one more incentive for people to remain underachievers is all. you might be happy with mediocrity, I am not.
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Unachievers? Have the threat of death hanging over people so they'll work harder?
 
apple0154 said:
Unachievers? Have the threat of death hanging over people so they'll work harder?
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the government is not given the authority to guarantee you life, only the right for you to preserve your life. so the responsibility of maintaining your health, or using health insurance is at best an option for you, as your rights would dictate. If you wish to think so little of your self worth to look at the issue as one of 'death unless you work harder', that's your call. it's wrong, but you're certainly free to have that opinion.
 
poet said:
No it isn't...it's an offshoot of the military, which needs massive overhauling and curtailing of waste, itself. While Medicare and Medicaid work relatively well, and have been.
Your point was hardly proved. Thank you.
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You obviously are unaware of the billions in fraud and waste in the Medicare and Medicaid programs. Dumb ass.
 
Dixie said:
Article 1 Section 8:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

....................I don't see HEALTH CARE listed there, do you????
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What kind of health care would they have referred to in 1776? MRIs? Cat Scans? Anti-biotics? Or lizard's teeth and bat droppings finely ground up?
 
apple0154 said:
What kind of health care would they have referred to in 1776? MRIs? Cat Scans? Anti-biotics? Or lizard's teeth and bat droppings finely ground up?
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are you seriously trying to say that the only rights that we the people have are only relevant to those items that existed in 1793? and anything else isn't covered, therefore able to be controlled by our creation of government?
 
apple0154 said:
What kind of health care would they have referred to in 1776? MRIs? Cat Scans? Anti-biotics? Or lizard's teeth and bat droppings finely ground up?
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Somebody had to pay the dude with the leaches. Just because it was a bit ancient doesn't mean that health care didn't exist, Apple. If the power isn't there you don't get to make it up, there's this thing called an Amendment for that.
 
apple0154 said:
What kind of health care would they have referred to in 1776? MRIs? Cat Scans? Anti-biotics? Or lizard's teeth and bat droppings finely ground up?
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Again, it doesn't matter, because Article 1 Section 8 simply doesn't give the government the authority to mandate health care. It's as simple as that, yet you don't seem to comprehend. As Madison so aptly explained, the "general welfare" clause can't mean what you wish for it to mean here! If that were the understanding and intent, the Constitution would have never been ratified, because it was most certainly a concern at the time.

You see, back in 1776...or 83... whenever we were debating the Constitution of our new country, the main concern the citizenry had, was how much power was being granted to government. We had just fought a war with England over that very issue, as a matter of fact. So the idea that the people willingly granted the government the unfettered power to legislate whatever they viewed as being for our "general welfare" is not only ignorant, but laughably so. Madison explained that "general welfare," like ANY general clause, is qualified by what follows, an enumeration of the 'general' terms. In the case of Article 1 Section 8, there is an entire list of things which fall under the definition of "general welfare" and unfortunately, health care was not included. If you wish to make that part of the Constitution, if you believe this is truly something the government should do for people, then you have to follow the process of amending the Constitution, as has been done in the past.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
are you seriously trying to say that the only rights that we the people have are only relevant to those items that existed in 1793? and anything else isn't covered, therefore able to be controlled by our creation of government?
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I'm saying health care was no more comtemplated than NASA or Mars missions. Common sense says if the Federal Government was mandated to form armies and the navy and raise taxes to protect the citizens and 45,000 citizens are needlessly dying every year surely the Federal Government has a right to act.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
no. in the military, you were assigned a physician/dentist when you checked in to sick call or the hospital. you couldn't ask for a second opinion.
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Ahhh, that's a pretty stinky arrangement. Government medical (civilian government medical) doesn't work like that. I can understand people being totally against government medical if it did.
 
Damocles said:
Somebody had to pay the dude with the leaches. Just because it was a bit ancient doesn't mean that health care didn't exist, Apple. If the power isn't there you don't get to make it up, there's this thing called an Amendment for that.
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Surely the Federal Government has the power to protect the citizens.
 
Dixie said:
Again, it doesn't matter, because Article 1 Section 8 simply doesn't give the government the authority to mandate health care. It's as simple as that, yet you don't seem to comprehend. As Madison so aptly explained, the "general welfare" clause can't mean what you wish for it to mean here! If that were the understanding and intent, the Constitution would have never been ratified, because it was most certainly a concern at the time.

You see, back in 1776...or 83... whenever we were debating the Constitution of our new country, the main concern the citizenry had, was how much power was being granted to government. We had just fought a war with England over that very issue, as a matter of fact. So the idea that the people willingly granted the government the unfettered power to legislate whatever they viewed as being for our "general welfare" is not only ignorant, but laughably so. Madison explained that "general welfare," like ANY general clause, is qualified by what follows, an enumeration of the 'general' terms. In the case of Article 1 Section 8, there is an entire list of things which fall under the definition of "general welfare" and unfortunately, health care was not included. If you wish to make that part of the Constitution, if you believe this is truly something the government should do for people, then you have to follow the process of amending the Constitution, as has been done in the past.
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I still find it absurd to think the government at the time, while ensuring the safety of the citizens, would have turned their back on 45,000 (or a comparable percentage) dying every year. It doesn't make any sense.
 
apple0154 said:
I still find it absurd to think the government at the time, while ensuring the safety of the citizens, would have turned their back on 45,000 (or a comparable percentage) dying every year. It doesn't make any sense.
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The mortality rate was much higher then than now, and the founding fathers didn't see fit to include health care in the enumeration of power the government held. It doesn't make any sense that you don't understand it's just not in the fucking Constitution, there was never any such provision made, and the founding fathers didn't think it was the responsibility of government.

I also mentioned before, over 100,000 people die every year from smoking... that's TWICE the number you are outraged over, and yet... government generates revenue from taxation of tobacco, and smoking is perfectly legal. Why would the government have some responsibility to "save" 45k but no such obligation to "save" 100k people? That's what doesn't make sense... but then, look who we're talking to?
 
apple0154 said:
I'm saying health care was no more comtemplated than NASA or Mars missions. Common sense says if the Federal Government was mandated to form armies and the navy and raise taxes to protect the citizens and 45,000 citizens are needlessly dying every year surely the Federal Government has a right to act.
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health care wasn't contemplated because it didn't need to be. when one needed to see a doctor, one went or one came to visit. If payment in currency couldn't be made, then barter was completely acceptable and often preferred. your precious government has all but done away with most barter payments. the federal government doesn't have rights, period. It only has powers we the people assigned to it. no more, no less.
 
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