Unions: Good for bad teachers, bad for kids

Damocles said:
I prefer breaking up the government monopoly and allowing people to choose the best possible education available with the money that would otherwise go to the monopoly. If you want your child to learn to feel good about themselves because you tell them they are special rather than because they have accomplished something, by all means send them to a school that does that. My children will go to a school where they earn a grade and feel good because they have done something worth feeling good about. If you want your kid to learn that it would be better if we got rid of currency and all lived off of the love of mankind, then send them to a school that does that. My children will learn that there is no shame in earning a good living...

So forth.

Why can they have choices in Sweden and we can't here? We know it works, and that it works well. Each nation, like Sweden, that has tried it has done better, yet we continue to support a government monopoly that rewards mediocrity.

http://www.heritage.org/research/re...n-an-interview-with-thomas-idergard-of-timbro
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Man...you're public schools where you live must really suck cause our local schools aren't a thing like that.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You don't know what the hell your talking about. My grandfather was a railroad conductor and a life long union man. You calling him a mediocrity? My best friend is a master electrician and a union man. You think he's a mediocrity? You know what it takes to obtain masters certification? My Uncle was a master machinist, as in skilled tradesman, it was his union that paid for his training and organized his apprenticeship. You think he's a mediocrity? My cousins oldest son is an AP math teacher at a local high school. He's a union man. He has a masters in applied mathematics. You telling me he's a mediocrity? My sisters is an BS/RN. Works for the local community hospital. She's a union member. Are you telling me that she's a mediocrity? You should be so lucky that if your sick to be in a hospital with all those mediocrities of her caliber.

The fact of the matter is that Unions don't breed mediocrity. What they have done is create our middle class.
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Unions for industry is fine because there is competition, which is the American way. That is not the problem right now. The PROBLEM in America is the corrupt govt unions.
 
cawacko said:
How do you believe teachers union laws benefit students?
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It prevents ideological nutjobs and political extremist at the local level from undermining public education who would eliminate every educator that doesn't agree with them. If it wasn't for teacher's unions there wouldn't be a qualified biology teacher working in the entire south. Look what happened in Dover. The entire science curriculum whould have been undermined by a couple of nutjobs on the local school board had not the unionized science teachers told them "No! We will not do that!"

That's how teacher unions benefit education. Other wise you'd have people with lunatic fringe views in positions of power undermining our public education.

That's not to say that the primary beneficiary of a teachers union are the teachers. As any other person they have a fundamental human right to organize and collectively bargain for the appropriate compensation for their services.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You don't know what the hell your talking about. My grandfather was a railroad conductor and a life long union man. You calling him a mediocrity? My best friend is a master electrician and a union man. You think he's a mediocrity? You know what it takes to obtain masters certification? My Uncle was a master machinist, as in skilled tradesman, it was his union that paid for his training and organized his apprenticeship. You think he's a mediocrity? My cousins oldest son is an AP math teacher at a local high school. He's a union man. He has a masters in applied mathematics. You telling me he's a mediocrity? My sisters is an BS/RN. Works for the local community hospital. She's a union member. Are you telling me that she's a mediocrity? You should be so lucky that if your sick to be in a hospital with all those mediocrities of her caliber.

The fact of the matter is that Unions don't breed mediocrity. What they have done is create our middle class.
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Beautifully stated Mott.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It prevents ideological nutjobs and political extremist at the local level from undermining public education who would eliminate every educator that doesn't agree with them. If it wasn't for teacher's unions there wouldn't be a qualified biology teacher working in the entire south. Look what happened in Dover. The entire science curriculum whould have been undermined by a couple of nutjobs on the local school board had not the unionized science teachers told them "No! We will not do that!"

That's how teacher unions benefit education. Other wise you'd have people with lunatic fringe views in positions of power undermining our public education.

That's not to say that the primary beneficiary of a teachers union are the teachers. As any other person they have a fundamental human right to organize and collectively bargain for the appropriate compensation for their services.
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So they saved biology for a couple of kids in the South. That's about the extent of the benefits that kids have received from the teachers union. And the fundamental human right to collectively bargain should come before what is best for the students?

What is the downside for kids? We have a union that fights almost any and all changes to public education. We have a system where it is very difficult to get rid of poor teachers. We have a system designed on seniority, LIFO, last in first out. Doesn't matter if it is an excellent young teacher when cuts have to be made it is not based on ability but on who has been there the longest.

I'm not suggesting teachers should be treated like meat. What I am saying is our focus should be on what works best for the kids. Instead our focus is on what works best for the teachers union.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It prevents ideological nutjobs and political extremist at the local level from undermining public education who would eliminate every educator that doesn't agree with them. If it wasn't for teacher's unions there wouldn't be a qualified biology teacher working in the entire south. Look what happened in Dover. The entire science curriculum whould have been undermined by a couple of nutjobs on the local school board had not the unionized science teachers told them "No! We will not do that!"

That's how teacher unions benefit education. Other wise you'd have people with lunatic fringe views in positions of power undermining our public education.

That's not to say that the primary beneficiary of a teachers union are the teachers. As any other person they have a fundamental human right to organize and collectively bargain for the appropriate compensation for their services.
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Isn't Dover in Deleware? :cof1:
 
The Dude said:
Alias and dumberthanyou are totally limited to teabagger talking points as they are not educated. Talk about not bringing anything to the board. White trash hatred. Ok we got it
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So, our system is perfect, then, seeing as you didn't add your perspective to the dialogue?
 
Alias said:
You must be one of the lucky ones.

Why does the dropout rate keep going up and why does America keep falling behind other nations in education?
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Man you are a moron. Rush Limbaugh or Fox News tell you something and you just jump right in there and believe it, don't you? Dude....high school drop out rates have been declining for the last 30 years and by dramatic margins. The high school drop out rate in 1980, the year I graduated, was 14.1%. In 2009 it was 8.1%. That means the drop out rate has been cut by 42.5% in the last 30 years. So your argument is based on a false premise that is factually wrong. The drop out rate has consistantly gone down over the last 30 years by a substantial ammount. Come back when you know what you're talking about.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=16

As for us falling behind other nations in education....I'll answer your question with a question. How many math and science classes did you take to earn your GED?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Man...you're public schools where you live must really suck cause our local schools aren't a thing like that.
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Who said they were? You misread what I said there. I wasn't saying that the public schools were that way, just that if you wanted it that way you should have the option. So long as they teach the standard curriculum, I can give a whit if you want your kid to not get "grades" so they can feel better, or whatever idea floats your boat. They're your kids and should be taught as you want, and mine should be taught as I would prefer.

And you absolutely ignored the reality that every single nation that has done this has improved their education system. The government monopoly is the wretched refuse of the past, destroying our future generations. And as long as we allow it to continue, we will be failing our children by force feeding them mediocrity and a one-size-fits-all mentality that never has and never will fit humanity.

It isn't the union causing this, it is the monopoly.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
It prevents ideological nutjobs and political extremist at the local level from undermining public education who would eliminate every educator that doesn't agree with them. If it wasn't for teacher's unions there wouldn't be a qualified biology teacher working in the entire south. Look what happened in Dover. The entire science curriculum whould have been undermined by a couple of nutjobs on the local school board had not the unionized science teachers told them "No! We will not do that!"

That's how teacher unions benefit education. Other wise you'd have people with lunatic fringe views in positions of power undermining our public education.

That's not to say that the primary beneficiary of a teachers union are the teachers. As any other person they have a fundamental human right to organize and collectively bargain for the appropriate compensation for their services.
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That's the problem. We have a small group of Marxists who run the education system and who ignore parents. Get your damn leftist agenda out of our schools. The kids don't belong to you.
 
Darla said:
I wish we did have Marxists teaching in our schools. Then some of you dumb fucks might actually know what Marxism is.
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I know what a leftist agenda is. I can smell it and our public education stinks to high heaven. Some of you forget who the kids belong to. You keep telling us "it's for the kids" every time you all want more money for yourselves. Meanwhile, our level of education keeps getting worse and the dropout rate keeps getting higher while America is being dumbed down. We know who the "dumb fuck's are.
 
cawacko said:
So they saved biology for a couple of kids in the South. That's about the extent of the benefits that kids have received from the teachers union. And the fundamental human right to collectively bargain should come before what is best for the students?

What is the downside for kids? We have a union that fights almost any and all changes to public education. We have a system where it is very difficult to get rid of poor teachers. We have a system designed on seniority, LIFO, last in first out. Doesn't matter if it is an excellent young teacher when cuts have to be made it is not based on ability but on who has been there the longest.

I'm not suggesting teachers should be treated like meat. What I am saying is our focus should be on what works best for the kids. Instead our focus is on what works best for the teachers union.
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Oh don't give me that "What's best for the kids argument.". What's best for the kids is that they all get educated by PhD's from Harvard and Yale who accept no salary and work selflessly for free.

Why the hell should educators throw theselves on the alter of your kids? Taking care of the best interest of your kids is your job and not mine or some school teachers. Their job is to competently teach children. The teachers union job is to look after the teachers. It's your job as a parent to look after your childs interenst and just because a person was hired to teach your kids doesn't mean they have to sacrifice their best interest for your kids best interest.

There is definately some down sides to unions, as there are with any human institution. I've been on the merit pay system for a long time and if you think that's a solution to seniorty then you're a fool. Cause the reality is that merit systems are almost always completely subjective and almost solely determined in a one sided determination by management. In my experience "merit systems" puts you almost completely at the mercy of management as they will give you whatever evaluation they damned well want to regardless of how skilled, competently or productively you work. You are completely at managements mercy with absolutely no room for negotiation other then to go work for someone else. So you're bullshitting your self if you think solely replacing seniority with merit pay systems alone is a solution. What you are advocating is a system where management calls the shots and you take your marching orders.

Fuck that!
 
Damocles said:
Who said they were? You misread what I said there. I wasn't saying that the public schools were that way, just that if you wanted it that way you should have the option. So long as they teach the standard curriculum, I can give a whit if you want your kid to not get "grades" so they can feel better, or whatever idea floats your boat. They're your kids and should be taught as you want, and mine should be taught as I would prefer.

And you absolutely ignored the reality that every single nation that has done this has improved their education system. The government monopoly is the wretched refuse of the past, destroying our future generations. And as long as we allow it to continue, we will be failing our children by force feeding them mediocrity and a one-size-fits-all mentality that never has and never will fit humanity.

It isn't the union causing this, it is the monopoly.
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I was just pointing out that you were making a broad generalization that verged on a strawman argument. The problem with your argument is that your option can and have been used in the past to undermine quality public education. If you want more options then send your kids to private school....on your dime! Don't try to undermine our public schools cause you don't want to send your kids there.
 
Damocles said:
Who said they were? You misread what I said there. I wasn't saying that the public schools were that way, just that if you wanted it that way you should have the option. So long as they teach the standard curriculum, I can give a whit if you want your kid to not get "grades" so they can feel better, or whatever idea floats your boat. They're your kids and should be taught as you want, and mine should be taught as I would prefer.

And you absolutely ignored the reality that every single nation that has done this has improved their education system. The government monopoly is the wretched refuse of the past, destroying our future generations. And as long as we allow it to continue, we will be failing our children by force feeding them mediocrity and a one-size-fits-all mentality that never has and never will fit humanity.

It isn't the union causing this, it is the monopoly.
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Done what? Can you be a little more specific?
 
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