Cain’s ‘9-9-9’ tax plan hits poor, helps wealthy

[DamnYankee]

Its about time the poor started paying taxes instead of milking the system like they do. Everyone needs to have some skin in the game. Taxing some people a higher percentage is inherently unfair, and is against principles established by the Constitution.

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

Under the Herman Cain 9-9-9 tax plan, a new federal sales tax would be added on top of existing state and local sales taxes.

That means 9-9-9 could yield large sales taxes in some places.


As a result, sales taxes around the nation would be considerably higher than 9 percent.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Electi...er-shock-18-sales-tax-possible-in-some-states

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Its about time the poor started paying taxes instead of milking the system like they do. Everyone needs to have some skin in the game. Taxing some people a higher percentage is inherently unfair, and is against principles established by the Constitution.

The 9-9-9 plan doesn't tax poor people, it actually saves them money by not charging payroll tax. I think Cain's plan is brilliant, it combines the Fair Tax plan with the Flat Tax plan, bridging the two sides together with a unified plan that can and will work. The sales tax is something even democrats have talked about in the past, Biden in particular, spoke often of a VAT tax, which is a consumption-based tax. This isn't some wild crazy idea he just pulled out of his ass, he is a mathematician, he knows his numbers, if Herman Cain says this will work, I believe him.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

That wouldn't be the case, obviously. First of all, you are forgetting we will have a new 9% consumption tax, do you have any idea of how much consumption this nation does each year?

Less than it makes in income.

How much of that is done by people who are currently 'off the grid' as far as taxes go? Drug dealers, illegals, cons... suddenly, those people would then be paying into the system, where they aren't now. Another thing you forget to consider, is there will be no more tax deductions or loopholes, which is going to effect the wealthy and upper middle class more, as will the consumption tax, for that matter... bums don't buy Gulfstreams and Yachts.

If you look at the hard numbers, the wealthy pay a small fraction under a consumption tax of what they pay under an income tax. Rich people will likely pay less 3%, 2%, etc... of their income under a fair tax, compared to the 15% or 20% (already less than the average middle class family) under the current scheme.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Under the Herman Cain 9-9-9 tax plan, a new federal sales tax would be added on top of existing state and local sales taxes.

That means 9-9-9 could yield large sales taxes in some places.


As a result, sales taxes around the nation would be considerably higher than 9 percent.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Electi...er-shock-18-sales-tax-possible-in-some-states

The problem with liberals is, you can't think dynamically, everything is static. You assume consumer prices will remain exactly the same, and that we'll simply realize this 9% increase across the board on all prices of all consumer products, without exception... and that wouldn't be good. But here's what you are failing to understand, the corporations would be paying 9% corporate tax instead of the average 23% they are paying now, therefore, they COULD conceivably, reduce their retail prices by as much as 14% and realize the exact same profits, meaning, you would actually pay 3% less than you are paying now, for their product... you'd still be paying the 9% sales tax, but the price has been reduced, so you would actually pay less. This wouldn't happen on everything, it would depend on supply and demand, competition, etc... but on average, we wouldn't see a static 9% increase in prices across the board.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Less than it makes in income.

But we'll also have a 9% income tax. AND a 9% corporate tax.... hence the name, 9-9-9!

If you look at the hard numbers, the wealthy pay a small fraction under a consumption tax of what they pay under an income tax. Rich people will likely pay less 3%, 2%, etc... of their income under a fair tax, compared to the 15% or 20% (already less than the average middle class family) under the current scheme.

No, if you actually look at who spends the most money as consumers, it is the wealthy, and this is true in any society. Rich people buy shit... poor people can't afford shit... Rich people throw lavish parties with caterers... poor people buy malt liquor and scratch-off tickets... Rich people buy speedboats and Ferraris... poor people take the bus. The more money the rich person spends, the more taxes we collect.

 

[Rune]

The problem with liberals is, you can't think dynamically, everything is static. You assume consumer prices will remain exactly the same, and that we'll simply realize this 9% increase across the board on all prices of all consumer products, without exception... and that wouldn't be good. But here's what you are failing to understand, the corporations would be paying 9% corporate tax instead of the average 23% they are paying now, therefore, they COULD conceivably, reduce their retail prices by as much as 14% and realize the exact same profits, meaning, you would actually pay 3% less than you are paying now, for their product... you'd still be paying the 9% sales tax, but the price has been reduced, so you would actually pay less. This wouldn't happen on everything, it would depend on supply and demand, competition, etc... but on average, we wouldn't see a static 9% increase in prices across the board.

You can't have your cake and eat it too Dixie.
Even you should know that.

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

LOL, hasn't the conservative mantra been "higher taxes = higher prices" for years when discussing corporate taxes?

"They just pass the costs on to the consumer" whined the righties.

Now you want to pretend that corporations will cut prices if a high sales tax is imposed on top of existing local and state taxes?

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

But we'll also have a 9% income tax. AND a 9% corporate tax.... hence the name, 9-9-9! No, if you actually look at who spends the most money as consumers, it is the wealthy, and this is true in any society. Rich people buy shit... poor people can't afford shit... Rich people throw lavish parties with caterers... poor people buy malt liquor and scratch-off tickets... Rich people buy speedboats and Ferraris... poor people take the bus. The more money the rich person spends, the more taxes we collect.

Let's see some evidence.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You can't have your cake and eat it too Dixie.
Even you should know that.

I do know that, no one is wanting to have cake and eat it too... I think we are going to have to cut spending and do away with redundancy and waste, and downsize government considerably. We have to start balancing the budget and being realistic again with our finances. This will come as a rude awakening for some, but it's got to happen for us to regain fiscal responsibility. Cain's 9-9-9 plan is a realistic way for us to broaden the tax base and reduce the tax burden for every American, and enable economic prosperity... that's the BEST part of this plan, that no one wants to talk about... While you are all poor mouthing about how much it will burden the poor (it won't), the economic ramifications would be enormous. A 9% corporate tax rate would attract new business and foreign investment like flies to honey... elimination of Cap Gains would unleash potentially TRILLIONS of dollars in new ventures, and this all creates millions and millions of jobs.

It's the liberals who want to steal the cake, run off into the closet and cram it all in their mouth, then protest the rich people aren't making enough cake!

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

I do know that, no one is wanting to have cake and eat it too... I think we are going to have to cut spending and do away with redundancy and waste, and downsize government considerably. We have to start balancing the budget and being realistic again with our finances. This will come as a rude awakening for some, but it's got to happen for us to regain fiscal responsibility. Cain's 9-9-9 plan is a realistic way for us to broaden the tax base and reduce the tax burden for every American, and enable economic prosperity... that's the BEST part of this plan, that no one wants to talk about... While you are all poor mouthing about how much it will burden the poor (it won't), the economic ramifications would be enormous. A 9% corporate tax rate would attract new business and foreign investment like flies to honey... elimination of Cap Gains would unleash potentially TRILLIONS of dollars in new ventures, and this all creates millions and millions of jobs. It's the liberals who want to steal the cake, run off into the closet and cram it all in their mouth, then protest the rich people aren't making enough cake!

Yeah, more tax breaks for billionaires....how'd those Bush tax cuts do, jobs-wise?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

LOL, hasn't the conservative mantra been "higher taxes = higher prices" for years when discussing corporate taxes?

"They just pass the costs on to the consumer" whined the righties.

Now you want to pretend that corporations will cut prices if a high sales tax is imposed on top of existing local and state taxes?

The corporations aren't paying a high sales tax. The corporations, on average, would see a 14% DROP in their tax rates, and elimination of capital gains taxes altogether. So yeah, in a highly competitive market, I can see a corporation lowering their retail prices to absorb some of the 9% sales tax the consumer would otherwise pay, to remain competitive... they can afford to do that, in fact, they could reduce their consumer prices by the full 9% and still realize the same profit margins. The point is, a 9% consumption tax does not automatically mean everything goes up 9% in cost to consumers.

 

[Rune]

The corporations aren't paying a high sales tax. The corporations, on average, would see a 14% DROP in their tax rates, and elimination of capital gains taxes altogether. So yeah, in a highly competitive market, I can see a corporation lowering their retail prices to absorb some of the 9% sales tax the consumer would otherwise pay, to remain competitive... they can afford to do that, in fact, they could reduce their consumer prices by the full 9% and still realize the same profit margins. The point is, a 9% consumption tax does not automatically mean everything goes up 9% in cost to consumers.

What about the coporations already doing business here, but paying no tax?

The cost of their products will rise at least 18%, then what?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

What about the coporations already doing business here, but paying no tax?

The cost of their products will rise at least 18%, then what?

Is there some IRS provision I am missing that allows corporations to pay no tax? Oh... you mean, like the parent company of MSNBC, General Electric, who paid no tax last year? Well, the 9-9-9 plan does away with all the loopholes like that, so they would have to start paying their fair share like the rest of us... maybe they would have to lay off Rachel Madcow?

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

The corporations aren't paying a high sales tax. The corporations, on average, would see a 14% DROP in their tax rates, and elimination of capital gains taxes altogether. So yeah, in a highly competitive market, I can see a corporation lowering their retail prices to absorb some of the 9% sales tax the consumer would otherwise pay, to remain competitive... they can afford to do that, in fact, they could reduce their consumer prices by the full 9% and still realize the same profit margins. The point is, a 9% consumption tax does not automatically mean everything goes up 9% in cost to consumers.

Yet for years the right claimed that higher taxation would lead to higher prices...now you want to believe that if you give big business another tax break on the backs of the poor and middle class they'll generously cut prices?

Did the banks lend money when they were bailed out?

Did businesses and wealthy 'job creators' hire Americans after 10 years of Bush tax cuts?

 

[Rune]

Is there some IRS provision I am missing that allows corporations to pay no tax? Oh... you mean, like the parent company of MSNBC, General Electric, who paid no tax last year? Well, the 9-9-9 plan does away with all the loopholes like that, so they would have to start paying their fair share like the rest of us... maybe they would have to lay off Rachel Madcow?

So, General Electric raising retail prices by 18% would work out O.K.?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Yet for years the right claimed that higher taxation would lead to higher prices...now you want to believe that if you give big business another tax break on the backs of the poor and middle class they'll generously cut prices?

Did the banks lend money when they were bailed out?

Did businesses and wealthy 'job creators' hire Americans after 10 years of Bush tax cuts?

Higher taxation DOES lead to higher prices! No one is talking about HIGHER taxes, we are talking about LOWER tax rates. And there is no one talking about "on the backs of" anything, except your dumb ass. It's not about 'generosity' it's about business and commerce. Like I said, most corporations would realize an average 14% reduction in tax rates, so they COULD lower prices by as much, and still make the same profits. No guarantee they will do that, maybe they don't need to do that, maybe they sell a product that is in high demand and people will pay more for it? That's how capitalism works... supply and demand. Again, the point is, they COULD lower consumer retail prices to absorb much of the extra 9% tax to the consumer, in order to keep customers happy and content and not lose their business to the competition, who might decide to lower his price. You have to stop thinking in static terms, and understand how capitalism works.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

So, General Electric raising retail prices by 18% would work out O.K.?

Oh, I don't know... IF my cable company increased my bill by 18% because Rachel Madcow didn't get laid off... I'd drop them and go with the Dish. I imagine there would be some of this happening, and the great free enterprise free market capitalist system would sort itself out in the end, it always has.


What's really funny as hell, is what you are now arguing for! You are saying that we should keep corporate tax loopholes like GE used to pay no taxes, so that consumers don't have to pay more at the retail level. It's just stunning that you have taken this stance for corporate welfare.

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

Oh, I don't know... IF my cable company increased my bill by 18% because Rachel Madcow didn't get laid off... I'd drop them and go with the Dish. I imagine there would be some of this happening, and the great free enterprise free market capitalist system would sort itself out in the end, it always has. What's really funny as hell, is what you are now arguing for! You are saying that we should keep corporate tax loopholes like GE used to pay no taxes, so that consumers don't have to pay more at the retail level. It's just stunning that you have taken this stance for corporate welfare.

Nobody's saying that, Dixtard.

What we're saying is that Cain is a joke, and his 999 plan is more BS that the right is using to push more tax breaks for big business - financed by the poor and middle class consumers.

Cain won't even get nominated, so it's a moot point.

 

[Rune]

Oh, I don't know... IF my cable company increased my bill by 18% because Rachel Madcow didn't get laid off... I'd drop them and go with the Dish. I imagine there would be some of this happening, and the great free enterprise free market capitalist system would sort itself out in the end, it always has.


What's really funny as hell, is what you are now arguing for! You are saying that we should keep corporate tax loopholes like GE used to pay no taxes, so that consumers don't have to pay more at the retail level. It's just stunning that you have taken this stance for corporate welfare.

I am not arguing for it, merely pointing out the possibilty.