How obama will pay for the jobs bill or second stimulus

Real interest rates are negative on short term debt and 0 on the ten year.

the money borrowed for that type of debt will be the same at maturity. so, again, you're just passing the buck down the line. you're assuming the money borrowed will all fall under the treasury rate. i don't believe it always works that way.
 
I have tried explaining classic Keynesian economics to him without avail.

The problem with most Keynesian followers in DC is that they NEVER, EVER follow through. They understand the concept of borrowing and spending, but they do it in bad times AND good times. They never EVER pay down the national debt. They ALWAYS find something else to SPEND the money on. THAT is why we have $14 Trillion+ in debt.

Keynes proposed we take money in down times from the future spending and spend it today. Then in the future good years we reduce spending to pay back what we borrowed. It is the second half of his theory that most liberals ignore (and to be fair, most so called 'conservative' politicians do as well)

I think the question most liberals and conservatives alike should be asking..... IF the TARP money was repaid..... WHERE THE HELL DID IT GO?
 
the money borrowed for that type of debt will be the same at maturity. so, again, you're just passing the buck down the line. you're assuming the money borrowed will all fall under the treasury rate. i don't believe it always works that way.

lol.... the government ALWAYS borrows via the issuance of Treasury bonds. The maturities issued may vary, but it is always treasuries.
 
lol.... the government ALWAYS borrows via the issuance of Treasury bonds. The maturities issued may vary, but it is always treasuries.

can you reread what i said.

the rate today, is that always the agreed upon rate once a deal had been reached on borrowing the money if an agreement was made today. iow, can that rate be negotiated.
 
The problem with most Keynesian followers in DC is that they NEVER, EVER follow through. They understand the concept of borrowing and spending, but they do it in bad times AND good times. They never EVER pay down the national debt. They ALWAYS find something else to SPEND the money on. THAT is why we have $14 Trillion+ in debt.

Keynes proposed we take money in down times from the future spending and spend it today. Then in the future good years we reduce spending to pay back what we borrowed. It is the second half of his theory that most liberals ignore (and to be fair, most so called 'conservative' politicians do as well)

I think the question most liberals and conservatives alike should be asking..... IF the TARP money was repaid..... WHERE THE HELL DID IT GO?

This crisis has years to run yet unfortunately, we may look back and think that this was the calm before the storm. The Euro crisis is the elephant in the room, it has the potential to bankrupt countries.
 
Borrow more now. Tax more later.
How the fuck do you brain dead jackasses think we got where we are? We borrow now, but when later comes along the economy is either still in the shitter, or once again in the shitter, and we need to borrow AGAIN. Keynesian economics is the worlds biggest FAIL. Keynes was an IDIOT, unable to look beyond the immediate effect of using deficit spending to stimulate economic growth.

It's time people got through their liberal lobotomized brains that it DOES NOT WORK except to push the problems into the next election cycle. It never HAS worked for more than a couple years, and then the instabilities of a credit economy come right back to haunt us. If one were to look beyond the DNC mandated rhetoric, and study the history of economic performance since the Depression, one would easily see that the periods of growth are getting shorter and weaker every time we use Keynesian solutions to address a sluggish or shrinking economy.

And the more debt we have the worse the long term effects. Sure, we can borrow now at record low interest. But the problem is interest rates will eventually rise again. Meanwhile we will have added more to the debt, as there is ZERO indication we'll ever actually start paying off the debt.And those interest rates will affect the money we borrow NOW at low rates, making the debt drag even more on the economy.

In short, "spend and tax" is as asininely stupid as "tax and spend".
 
The problem with most Keynesian followers in DC is that they NEVER, EVER follow through. They understand the concept of borrowing and spending, but they do it in bad times AND good times. They never EVER pay down the national debt. They ALWAYS find something else to SPEND the money on. THAT is why we have $14 Trillion+ in debt.

Keynes proposed we take money in down times from the future spending and spend it today. Then in the future good years we reduce spending to pay back what we borrowed. It is the second half of his theory that most liberals ignore (and to be fair, most so called 'conservative' politicians do as well)

I think the question most liberals and conservatives alike should be asking..... IF the TARP money was repaid..... WHERE THE HELL DID IT GO?
While a big portion of the problem lies in not following through on the second half of Keynes theory, there is a fundamental flaw in the second half of Keynes theory. The act of borrowing and spending in down times ends up destabilizing the economy in the longer term, which creates MORE down times, and diminishes up times. Anyone who has found themselves in the credit-card trap has experienced it first hand. Paying off debt has its own costs. For a family it means doing with less in order to afford paying off when they bought more using credit. With a nation, paying off the debt also means doing with less, cutting spending across the board in order to pay for the credit. This acts like a brake on any economy, but especially one which owes its health to credit spending in the first place. The very act of using credit to stimulate economic growth ends up creating future economic woes, which needs even more deficit spending to address. Like a family using one credit card to pay the previous one, it ends up (has ended up) in a vicious cycle. Trying to keep the cycle going with more and more deficit spending with less and less payback in between (if any, the lack of which only makes things that much worse) will only end up in default and collapse. As it is, Europe is finding the need for austerity measures to keep things from going south. If we don't END our Keynesian ways, we, too, will be faced with either choosing full blown austerity measures, or face complete collapse.

Sometimes I wonder if it isn't already too late to avoid the need for austerity measures.
 
While a big portion of the problem lies in not following through on the second half of Keynes theory, there is a fundamental flaw in the second half of Keynes theory. The act of borrowing and spending in down times ends up destabilizing the economy in the longer term, which creates MORE down times, and diminishes up times. Anyone who has found themselves in the credit-card trap has experienced it first hand. Paying off debt has its own costs. For a family it means doing with less in order to afford paying off when they bought more using credit. With a nation, paying off the debt also means doing with less, cutting spending across the board in order to pay for the credit. This acts like a brake on any economy, but especially one which owes its health to credit spending in the first place. The very act of using credit to stimulate economic growth ends up creating future economic woes, which needs even more deficit spending to address. Like a family using one credit card to pay the previous one, it ends up (has ended up) in a vicious cycle. Trying to keep the cycle going with more and more deficit spending with less and less payback in between (if any, the lack of which only makes things that much worse) will only end up in default and collapse. As it is, Europe is finding the need for austerity measures to keep things from going south. If we don't END our Keynesian ways, we, too, will be faced with either choosing full blown austerity measures, or face complete collapse.

Sometimes I wonder if it isn't already too late to avoid the need for austerity measures.

It's not accurate to compare household economics w/ national. The idea is that people will get back to work, spend their money, causing companies to do better & hire more - and the net result is much more revenue. If it works, that kind of debt spending pays for itself many times over.

Accumulating debt on a household level is just debt - it doesn't create more income.
 
It's not accurate to compare household economics w/ national. The idea is that people will get back to work, spend their money, causing companies to do better & hire more - and the net result is much more revenue. If it works, that kind of debt spending pays for itself many times over.

Accumulating debt on a household level is just debt - it doesn't create more income.
I did not intend a direct comparison between individual household budget and the national economy. But there are parallels, one major one of which is when you have dug yourself in a hole, digging the hole deeper (by getting another credit card to pay off the other one - or by creating more "stimulus" packages we haven't the means to pay for) is NOT going to get you out of it. The problem with your scenario is when the extra spending from government ends, the economy contracts again. A Keynesian economy is a FALSE economy, based on deliberately artificially expanded spending. So we either keep spending, or we entice the people to keep on spending - credit cards being issued to people with no expendable income and stupid assed shit like that. But credit economies cannot last long, and then people, as well as the government, are up to their ears in debt which needs to be paid down. Then you have a contracting economy to try and pay off the borrowed money, plus interest.

"If it works" is the qualifying phrase in you argument, and if you look at the long term results of 60+ years of Keynesian economics you will see that your qualification is never actually met for longer than a year or two, most often shorter, and then the instabilities caused by dependence on a credit economy reassert themselves and we're right back in the sinkhole, only it keeps getting deeper. Is 14.5 trillion dollars and rising not enough evidence for you that IT DOES NOT WORK?

Here is the trick: Keynesians go on and on about how deficit spending stimulates growth which results in a period of prosperity that pays back the debt. But when you look at the actual RESULTS, over 60 fucking YEARS worth of results, and anyone who wants to actually USE their brains can EASILY see IT DOES NOT LAST!! It does NOT "pay for itself many times over" or we would not currently be sitting in a shitty economy with over 14 trillion dollars in national debt staring at us. History itself shows Keynesian economics to be a pile of bovine cookies.
 
How the fuck do you brain dead jackasses think we got where we are? We borrow now, but when later comes along the economy is either still in the shitter, or once again in the shitter, and we need to borrow AGAIN. Keynesian economics is the worlds biggest FAIL. Keynes was an IDIOT, unable to look beyond the immediate effect of using deficit spending to stimulate economic growth.

It's time people got through their liberal lobotomized brains that it DOES NOT WORK except to push the problems into the next election cycle. It never HAS worked for more than a couple years, and then the instabilities of a credit economy come right back to haunt us. If one were to look beyond the DNC mandated rhetoric, and study the history of economic performance since the Depression, one would easily see that the periods of growth are getting shorter and weaker every time we use Keynesian solutions to address a sluggish or shrinking economy.

And the more debt we have the worse the long term effects. Sure, we can borrow now at record low interest. But the problem is interest rates will eventually rise again. Meanwhile we will have added more to the debt, as there is ZERO indication we'll ever actually start paying off the debt.And those interest rates will affect the money we borrow NOW at low rates, making the debt drag even more on the economy.

In short, "spend and tax" is as asininely stupid as "tax and spend".


I realize that you genuinely believe that you are right and that I am wrong, but reality is quite the opposite.
 
I realize that you genuinely believe that you are right and that I am wrong, but reality is quite the opposite.
Really? Then why don't you point out ONE time in the past 60 years when using deficit spending to stimulate a lagging economy did NOT end up in a contracting economy, if not another recession, within a few years after the deliberate stimulus spending was reduced. (Reduced, because there is not a single year in the time span I reference that deficit spending was actually stopped so we could start paying it back.)

You're like a 3 year old "yes it is! yes it is!" But here is your chance to support your claim that you are correct, while I am in error.

Just one is all you need. (except you can't, because there are no examples for you to cite.)
 
Really? Then why don't you point out ONE time in the past 60 years when using deficit spending to stimulate a lagging economy did NOT end up in a contracting economy, if not another recession, within a few years after the deliberate stimulus spending was reduced. (Reduced, because there is not a single year in the time span I reference that deficit spending was actually stopped so we could start paying it back.)

You're like a 3 year old "yes it is! yes it is!" But here is your chance to support your claim that you are correct, while I am in error.

Just one is all you need. (except you can't, because there are no examples for you to cite.)

I believe that this article covers pretty much everything.

Republicans only care about deficits when public money is being spent on liberal programs.

[h=2]The Deficit Scare: Myth vs. Reality[/h] "Republicans only care about deficits when public money is being spent on liberal programs."


If right-wing deficit hawks get their way, they will eliminate an essential tool for fighting economic recessions and cripple our ability to make the crucial public investments in education, technology, and infrastructure that would lay the groundwork for future economic expansion.

In recent years, a new and dangerous front has opened up in the conservative war on government: the battle over deficits and debt. The anti-government forces have tried to portray their position as merely one of fiscal common sense. They say that it is simply a matter of not spending more money than one earns. But make no mistake: this anti-debt crusade is a highly politicized effort to fundamentally undermine liberal programs and progressive government in this country.
If the deficit hawks are successful, they will do major damage to society and the economy. They are promoting a deficit hysteria in an effort to force the government to enact deep cuts in vital social programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. This fiscal austerity movement would also prevent the government from using deficit spending to speed the recovery of the economy when it is in recession. And it would inhibit us from making the crucial public investments in education, technology, energy, and transportation that are necessary to improve society and lay the foundations for future economic growth.
The Anti-Deficit Campaign
First, let’s be clear on the terminology. The “deficit” is the yearly difference between the money the government takes in and what it spends, while the “national debt” is the accumulation of the yearly deficits. The debt is funded by the federal government selling Treasury securities like T-bills, notes, Treasury Inflation-Protected securities, and savings bonds to the public.
Since the election of President Obama, the Republicans have been working diligently to whip up public panic about growing deficits and the debt. Conservative commentators like Glenn Beck have been pushing this issue hard in their daily tirades against overspending “socialist” government. These ideologues maintain that deficits hurt economic growth and that the national debt is putting an unfair burden on the future generations. The only answer, they argue, is to reduce government, rein in public spending, and to move toward balanced budgets.
Also leading the charge to alarm the public has been private-equity billionaire Peter G. Peterson. For 25 years he has been warning that the growing national debt would lead the economy into a disastrous collapse – even during the Clinton administration when many economists predicted many coming years of budget surpluses. In recent years he has pledged to spend a billion dollars to convince lawmakers that we must drastically curtail spending and reduce Social Security and Medicare benefits. He has funded a foundation dedicated to this cause, produced a documentary shown on PBS, and created an on-line newspaper, Fiscal Times, to spread his alarmist point of view.
Despite the fact that Peterson’s anti-deficit arguments rely on highly questionable predictions and fuzzy math (more on that later), he has been effective in his efforts to woo lawmakers to his cause, even some Democrats. And all these conservative propaganda efforts are having an effect on public opinion, with more Americans saying that deficits are one of the most serious problems facing our country.
Clearly this anti-deficit campaign is part of the larger “starving the beast” strategy that was discussed in another article. But deficits and debt are complicated topics that merit some analysis on their own. This article takes on the “deficit hawks” and critically examines their arguments. It will show that (1) Republicans only care about deficits when the money is being spent on liberal programs; (2) our current large deficits have not been caused by overspending by the Obama administration; (3) deficit spending is an essential tool for combating economic recessions and depressions; (4) public debt can fuel vital public investments in education, technology, and infrastructure that lay the groundwork for future economic expansion; (5) the inflated and misleading right-wing rhetoric about deficits and debt is distracting from a more rational and helpful discussion of the financial problems that we do face as a nation.
Deficit Hypocrites
Before considering what exactly is wrong with the conservative critique of deficits, it is first useful to see just how hypocritical many of them are about this topic. In reality, most conservative politicians don’t care nearly as much about deficits as they claim. Consider the evidence: most Republicans in Congress did not become deficit hawks until after President Obama was elected. During the previous administration they were busy helping President Bush turn the budget surpluses of the Clinton era into large deficits. Most conservatives did not see this rapid increase in the national debt as a problem at all. Vice-President Cheney blithely dismissed those issues at the time by saying, “Reagan proved deficits don’t matter.”
So clearly many Republicans think deficits are just fine when they are spending the public’s money on their own political priorities. It didn’t bother them to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by massive deficit spending. And they were all too glad to add hundreds of billions to the national debt by passing several enormous tax cuts – money that went largely to the wealthy. The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities has estimated that those wars and tax cuts will eventually contribute a whopping $7 trillion to federal deficits by 2019.[SUP]1[/SUP]
Many Republicans know – or should know – that almost all the projected deficits in the coming years have nothing to do with “out of control and irresponsible spending” by the Obama administration. Consider, for example, the projected deficit for 2013 of $962 billion. A study has shown that 42% ($402 billion) of that deficit will be due to the Bush-era tax cuts. Costs of the Bush initiated wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will account for 16% ($153 billion). Another 41% ($395 billion) of the deficit will be caused by the economic downturn that began in 2008.[SUP]2 [/SUP]This last figure includes lost tax revenues, money for the bailout that was necessary to prevent a complete economic meltdown, and money for an economic stimulus package to speed economic recovery. All these factors together will amount to 99% of the deficit in 2013! But this reality is being ignored by Republican politicians who continue to erroneously claim that Democrats and their policies are the main cause of our deficit problems.
Further evidence of Republican hypocrisy about deficits can be found in the way they ignore obvious ways of addressing this problem. If they really cared about reducing deficits, they would be enthusiastic about letting the Bush tax cuts expire. This would be the single most immediate and effective way to help rein in deficit spending. But instead, in 2010 they refused to extend unemployment benefits to millions of Americans until the Democrats agreed to extend all of these tax cuts – thus adding hundreds of billions to the national debt. Apparently, preserving low taxes, especially for the rich, is the real number one priority for Republicans, not cutting the deficits.
As their behavior indicates, many Republicans are not in principle against deficits, only deficit spending they don’t agree with. It is only when the Democrats want to spend money on things like making health care more accessible, improving education, or extending unemployment benefits that suddenly deficits matter and we are “broke” and “can’t afford” these “irresponsible” expenditures.


http://governmentisgood.com/articles.php?aid=30&print=1
 
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Really? Then why don't you point out ONE time in the past 60 years when using deficit spending to stimulate a lagging economy did NOT end up in a contracting economy, if not another recession, within a few years after the deliberate stimulus spending was reduced. (Reduced, because there is not a single year in the time span I reference that deficit spending was actually stopped so we could start paying it back.)

You're like a 3 year old "yes it is! yes it is!" But here is your chance to support your claim that you are correct, while I am in error.

Just one is all you need. (except you can't, because there are no examples for you to cite.)


You mean other than the early 1980s and the early 1990s?

And I think it's hilarious that you attribute recessions to deficit spending in the years prior to it as though prior to John Maynard Keynes the US didn't experience recessions every three years or so in the absence of Keynesian policies.
 
You mean other than the early 1980s and the early 1990s?

And I think it's hilarious that you attribute recessions to deficit spending in the years prior to it as though prior to John Maynard Keynes the US didn't experience recessions every three years or so in the absence of Keynesian policies.
What examples? 80s and 90s? ROFLMAO!! Are you actually using the turbulence of those decades as an example of SUCCESSFUL Keynesian policies? We entered the 80's in recession. We spent the hell out of things for the entirety of Reagan's administration (in case you forget the biggest criticism of Reagan by you assholes). We cut back on spending during Bush I's administration. By the end of Bush I, we were entering experiencing a contracting economy that degraded into recession by the time Clinton took the reigns. Therefore, the stimulus of Keynesian policies did NOT last more than a few years, as stated.

First two years of Clinton, we spent like drunken sailors again, and in addition changes to banking laws extended revolving credit into lower economic strata of the populace, so both government AND the people were spending. The dot-com bubble emerged - a factor that had nothing to do with keynesian policies, but rather the sudden and rapid absorbtion of new technologies into the marketing and commerce areas. Online stores became the norm, and coupled with massive credit spending, created a bubble lasting a whole 4 years. Republicans took control of congress and cut back government spending. By the end of Clinton's administration we were entering recession yet again, proving one more time that the results of Keynesian policies lasts only a short time. Bush II takes over, again spends like a drunken sailor, and even with that, barely kept things afloat until the consequences of previous pro-consumer-credit legislation came home to roost, thus sending us into the most recent economic crisis and recession.

As far as previous recessions, they, too, were results of deficit spending by the government. Keynes was simply a moron who came along and told us it was OK to do so.
 
I believe that this article covers pretty much everything...
Why is it you liberals think posting an OPINION piece somehow proves your point?

And I won't deny that republicans seem to only object to certain types of spending, while having no problem breaking the bank with their spending. But criticism of republican hypocrisy is hardly proof that deficit spending is somehow good for the economy.
 
What examples? 80s and 90s? ROFLMAO!! Are you actually using the turbulence of those decades as an example of SUCCESSFUL Keynesian policies? We entered the 80's in recession. We spent the hell out of things for the entirety of Reagan's administration (in case you forget the biggest criticism of Reagan by you assholes). We cut back on spending during Bush I's administration. By the end of Bush I, we were entering experiencing a contracting economy that degraded into recession by the time Clinton took the reigns. Therefore, the stimulus of Keynesian policies did NOT last more than a few years, as stated.

The period from November 1982 to July 1990 was the third longest period of economic expansion in United States history.


First two years of Clinton, we spent like drunken sailors again, and in addition changes to banking laws extended revolving credit into lower economic strata of the populace, so both government AND the people were spending. The dot-com bubble emerged - a factor that had nothing to do with keynesian policies, but rather the sudden and rapid absorbtion of new technologies into the marketing and commerce areas. Online stores became the norm, and coupled with massive credit spending, created a bubble lasting a whole 4 years. Republicans took control of congress and cut back government spending. By the end of Clinton's administration we were entering recession yet again, proving one more time that the results of Keynesian policies lasts only a short time. Bush II takes over, again spends like a drunken sailor, and even with that, barely kept things afloat until the consequences of previous pro-consumer-credit legislation came home to roost, thus sending us into the most recent economic crisis and recession.

The period from March 1991 though March 2001 was the longest period of economic expansion in the history of the United States.


As far as previous recessions, they, too, were results of deficit spending by the government. Keynes was simply a moron who came along and told us it was OK to do so.

Whatever. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
 
The period from November 1982 to July 1990 was the third longest period of economic expansion in United States history.
It was also the longest period of the greatest level of federal spending to that time. We've beaten Reagan's spending records since, but there was high criticism for the amount of spending performed under Reagan. You liberals STILL like to point out how much Reagan increased the national debt during his terms in office. When the spending was cut back under Bush I and the 1989 congress, the economy started contracting less than a year later, ending in the recession which limited Bush I to a single term in office. You think the timing between cutbacks in federal spending and the contraction of the economy is some kind of coincidence? If so, you are stupid beyond any hope of redemption.

The period from March 1991 though March 2001 was the longest period of economic expansion in the history of the United States.
Are you claiming the dot-com bubble was the result of Keynesian policies? LOL Who is it that hasn't a foggy fucking clue what they are talking about? The challenge is to find a period of economic growth which was the result of Keynesian policies that did NOT end when federal spending was cut. Yet, when federal spending was cut by the republican led congresses of 1997 and 1999 - the greatest set of cuts in recent history - and, again, less than a year later the economy started contracting, and again, resulted in a recession within two years of the last - and largest - set of spending cuts. Coincidence again? Only a full blown idiot can look at the timing between federal spending cuts and contraction of the economy and still believe Keynesian economic theory works.

Whatever. You don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about.
Look up the budgets and national deficits and compare them to the expansion and contraction of the economy. It's all about timing. When federal deficit spending is rolled back, the economy has ALWAYS contracted within a year or two of those cuts. There are sometimes buffering factors, like the dot-com bubble, but even then, in the end, the economy contracted in response to cuts in federal spending. The number of times you can see a contracting economy within a year or two of federal spending cuts is NOT coincidence. It is a pattern of cause and effect which anyone with a real brain can easily see.

(But having a real brain is not one of your attributes, is it? Osmosis while having your head up the donkey's ass has replaced what little gray matter you possessed with a different type of matter.)
 
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