The Law vs. the Gospel

Brent

Brent

Ahorrado por Gracia
It has been suggested that I do not place a great deal of emphasis on the compassionate, loving, merciful characteristics of God. This, admittedly, is quite true! Yes, I am more inclined to speak of God's anger and wrath, when compared to His more gentle qualities. Why?

Because I do not feel these more "unpleasant" aspects of God's nature are adequately represented in modern Christianity. These qualities are not understood, nor are they respected. Many Christians do not understand that the Jehovah who commanded the deaths of thousands at the hands of the Israelites is the same Jehovah who bore our sins at Calvary.

God did not change; He is the same Holy God who spoke the worlds into existence, created mankind and the animals, and annihilated Sodom and Gomorrah by fire! He is an awesome God who can part seas, and strike down men who hate Him. He can do what He pleases, yet whatever He does is always right, and always just! Why is this not admired and respected?

Well, Rich Mullins knew what I'm sayin'. ;)
http://tinyurl.com/hsy5x

I believe we have an Old and New Testament to reveal the 'duality' of the Lord. In the Old Testament, mankind is exposed to the Holiness of God without an intercessor on our behalf. The Old Testament demonstrates that we cannot keep the laws of God. This demonstrates our need for a Savior.

The New Testament demonstrates that mankind can be reconciled unto God through Jesus Christ and empowered by the Spirit to uphold the will of God. This is a message of hope to whoever places their faith in His name. But for those who do not believe, it is a message of condemnation; for whoever stands not in Grace is exposed to the full penalty of not keeping the Law.

The Law did not change; Christ did not revoke the Law. Christ said: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Thus, both the Old and the New Testament declare the same truth: that everyone who hates the Lord will be condemned. Who hates the Lord? Anyone who does not have faith in Him. This is what many Christians do not realize, or rather, do not wish to accept. It makes us uncomfortable. It makes us cringe. It makes us worry for our loved ones who do not believe.

But wait, is this condemnation not a message of hope?

If one truly comes to the conclusion that they're condemned without God, isn't that a good thing? Will it not lead to the salvation of their soul? Will it not make us more humble in the presence of our awesome God, who has offered redemption at no price?

Coming to the realization that our God is not just a God of Love and Mercy, but also a God of Anger and a God of Wrath, has strengthed my relationship with the Lord. I am more humble before Him because of it. I realize that there is nothing 'special' about me, or that I am somehow better than others. Christ completed the salvation work at Calvary.

Only by the Grace of God am I spared condemnation. That, I believe, is a message of hope; not a message of hate. And it is precisely for that reason I will always preach of the Wrath of Almighty God.

Regards,
Brent
 
That you hang on the words of primitive long-dead priests is most entertaining.

That you want the world to be ran along the lines of words of primitive long-dead priests is also entertaining.

That there are many adults in the US with influence who want this is extremely worrying.

Myths and legends are no replacement for reason and logic...
 
AnyOldIron said:
That you hang on the words of primitive long-dead priests is most entertaining.

That you want the world to be ran along the lines of words of primitive long-dead priests is also entertaining.

That there are many adults in the US with influence who want this is extremely worrying.

Myths and legends are no replacement for reason and logic...
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My purposes here is not to debate with you, AnyoldIron. But speak what you will. :) Here I am merely sharing what I believe, what I know in my heart to be true.
 
My purposes here is not to debate with you, AnyoldIron.

That's strange considering you're using a political debate forum....

Here I am merely sharing what I believe, what I know in my heart to be true.

That's good and always welcome but don't you think you will get to know and understand your ideas better if you open them up to questioning and debate?

All ideas should be tested vigorously. You wouldn't want to accept anything on face value, would you Brent?
 
Spiritual conversion is more profound than "evidence."

It can feel more profound, high emotions are involved.

All the more reason to apply reason and logic to your notions. Emotions are weak and easily manipulated.

To use a biblical idea... you wouldn't build a house on foundations of sand, would you now?
 
I am not talking about emotions, AnyoldIron. Read my thread entitled, "Love," in this same forum. I know the difference between emotions and revelation. I don't place my trust in emotions. :)
 
I am not talking about emotions, AnyoldIron. Read my thread entitled, "Love," in this same forum. I know the difference between emotions and revelation. I don't place my trust in emotions.

Well here is a point from which we can start....

If revelation isn't based on emotional manipulation it must be based on reason? If it doesn't use pathos, it must use logos.

Do you disagree with this?
 
You're assuming we're limited to emotions and logic. This is not so.

Spiritualism is not emotional or "logical." It is inspired by faith, not evidence.
 
Brent,

Do you feel that God has done His works via Hate? Do you think God wants us to Hate? Do you think He teaches us to hate? Is hate an attribute of God?


Who is your "neighbor" Brent, and how are you suppose to treat him Brent??? When you run around and tell your neighbor they are going to burn in Hell,(for the lack of a better term!), if they don't believe what you do.... Do you think this is What Christ meant by "loving your neighbor as yourself"?

Also, the way you present soddom and gomorah is as though God out of Spite only, had the Town destroyed....when you leave out the part of the Story where God was compassionate and was ready to save the whole city from this tradgedy if just one decent person was in it.....and that is including the women there.....that one decent person could save the whole lot from being killed .... not one could be found is what the story says....I guess I think you have left out the part where God is showing Compassion and just-ness....

How do the Jews get eternal life, how does anyone see Heaven according to Jesus in the passages about the Greatest Commandment and the Good Samaritan? Doesn't this contradict what you say about Salvation, which is only through Jesus Christ will they be saved?

This is what Jesus says about it...
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On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

In reply Jesus said:

"A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.

A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.

So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." (NIV, Luke 10:25-37 ) [/B]

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The Samaritans were the lowest of the Earth according to the Jews, the Samaritans were their religious enemies.... Yet the Samaritan man acted as a "neighbor" to the injured Jew and showed mercy to the injured Jew, while the two other religious Jews passed their own kin by....probably because of some religious laws and rules on cleanliness that they had totally misunderstood and let get in the way of showing compassion and mercy to their fellow man....

What does Christ mean when He tells us to "Go and do likewise" regarding this and how does this tie in to the God of the old testament that you proclaim to only be a God of wrath and anger?


And God is not the one that is punishing us for our sins, We punish ourselves by sinning and to me God is the one that WARNS us of the consequences of sin...the earthly consequences of sin reaks havock on our own life here on Earth....

There are consequenses on Earth that will not be good for us IF WE DO NOT LOVE OUR ENEMIES, LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES.........especially those that DIFFER with us....no?

care
 
Do you feel that God has done His works via Hate? Do you think God wants us to Hate? Do you think He teaches us to hate? Is hate an attribute of God?
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Why are you asking these questions when they have nothing whatsoever do to with the issue at hand? No I do not believe any of that.

Who is your "neighbor" Brent, and how are you suppose to treat him Brent??? When you run around and tell your neighbor they are going to burn in Hell,(for the lack of a better term!), if they don't believe what you do.... Do you think this is What Christ meant by "loving your neighbor as yourself"?
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I do not tell anyone to their face they're going to hell. I simply tell the truth, which is anyone who doesn't have faith in Christ will be condemned. Sorry if you don't like that, Care, but it's in the Bible! "He that believeth on him (Jesus) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

Also, the way you present soddom and gomorah is as though God out of Spite only, had the Town destroyed....when you leave out the part of the Story where God was compassionate and was ready to save the whole city from this tradgedy if just one decent person was in it.....and that is including the women there.....that one decent person could save the whole lot from being killed .... not one could be found is what the story says....I guess I think you have left out the part where God is showing Compassion and just-ness....
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I've emphasized time and time again that our God is a God of patience and mercy.

How do the Jews get eternal life, how does anyone see Heaven according to Jesus in the passages about the Greatest Commandment and the Good Samaritan? Doesn't this contradict what you say about Salvation, which is only through Jesus Christ will they be saved?

This is what Jesus says about it...
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On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
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Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) In order to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind," one must have faith in Jesus Christ. One must also follow the will of God: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

Nobody can be saved by simply "loving their neighbor." Without Christ, one is exposed to the condemnation of the Law.

What does Christ mean when He tells us to "Go and do likewise" regarding this and how does this tie in to the God of the old testament that you proclaim to only be a God of wrath and anger?
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Where did I ever say God is only a God of wrath and anger? I have stated repeatedly that I believe, "God is a God of Mercy, and also a God of Wrath." Without Christ we are exposed to the Wrath of God. This is a statement of truth which you cannot deny, for it is in the Bible. Unless, that is, you wish to deny the God of the Bible.

Ultimately, it seems as if you have little interest in reading/understanding what I am saying. I am beginning to doubt you even finished reading my original post.

And God is not the one that is punishing us for our sins, We punish ourselves by sinning and to me God is the one that WARNS us of the consequences of sin...the earthly consequences of sin reaks havock on our own life here on Earth....
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Not Biblical, Care4all. God has always punished us for our sins. Look at King David who committed adultery with Bathsheba after killing her husband. They had a child together who died. Do you deny that God took away their child? Look at the Bible, 2 Samuel 12:15-18:

[15] And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. [16] David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. [17] And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. [18] And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

Do you think the sulfur just happened to rain on Sodom and Gomorrah as result of their sins, or did God make it happen?

Do you think Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10) BOTH just happened to die at the same time for telling a lie, purely as a consequence of their sin, or did God kill them? Since when do people drop dead for telling a lie?

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea. :)

There are consequenses on Earth that will not be good for us IF WE DO NOT LOVE OUR ENEMIES, LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS AS OURSELVES.........especially those that DIFFER with us....no?
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Of course. But if "loving" them means telling them they're going to heaven even if they hate God, no I will not partake in your love. Read my thread entitled "Love" (in this forum) if you wish to hear my perspectives on that issue.

My point in this thread is to demonstrate everyone's need for a Savior.
I am not sure why you are so hostile against this...
 
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"He that believeth on him (Jesus) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

but...Jesus also told them that those that follow the greatest commandment also would receive eternal life in the passage i provided, so how do you rectify that bdw?

and also in the parable of the sheep and goats, where Jesus casts his judgement, both groups....the sheep and the goats, believed in jesus as Lord and stated such, but guess what? They all were not saved, they all did not receive eternal life even though both groups believeth in Him.....
 
but...Jesus also told them that those that follow the greatest commandment also would receive eternal life in the passage i provided, so how do you rectify that bdw?
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In order to love God (one of the greatest commandments), one must have faith in Jesus Christ. Nobody can claim to love God while rejecting the Messiah, the Son of God. Mankind is condemned by sin. Works cannot overcome these sins; only the atoning blood of Christ can reconcile us unto God.

and also in the parable of the sheep and goats, where Jesus casts his judgement, both groups....the sheep and the goats, believed in jesus as Lord and stated such, but guess what? They all were not saved, they all did not receive eternal life even though both groups believeth in Him....
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My interpretation of that verse is a bit different. I believe the people who claimed to believe in Him, but are damned nontheless, were "religious" people who never had true faith. They believed their works would same them.

Of course, I could be wrong. Perhaps the passage is referring to those who once had faith, but wandered from the truth. Quite possible.
 
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

and once again, what does the sum of ALL OF HIS COMMANDMENTS boil down to?

the greatest commandment!

LOVING God....and loving your neighbor, including your enemy, including sinners, including lowlifes, including Pagans, athiests, muslims, etc.... as yourself....

now how do you follow this one and only greastest commandment of Christ's, that covers all commandments combined, is what i would be asking.....

what is love to you brent?

unconditional or conditional?

is love forgiving?

is love compassionate and merciful?

is their love in reprimand or just wrath?
 
My interpretation of that verse is a bit different. I believe the people who claimed to believe in Him, but are damned nontheless, were "religious" people who never had true faith. They believed their works would same them.

Of course, I could be wrong. Perhaps the passage is referring to those who once had faith, but wandered from the truth. Quite possible.
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none, of that is present in this passage, are you ADDING something to the word of God? what was the message of the sheep and goats bdw....? from the words that ARE THERE in the Bible?
 
Care4all said:
none, of that is present in this passage, are you ADDING something to the word of God? what was the message of the sheep and goats bdw....? from the words that ARE THERE in the Bible?
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I am not adding to the Bible, Care4all. You are the one aruging that some non-Christians will be rewared with eternal life, when that would be in complete contradiction with the Bible. :)

Here are the verses we're discussing:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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Nobody is saved by works, Care4all. My interpretation of the 'goats' are those who are merely religious, they perform "good works" -- they do not have faith in Jesus Christ. On what basis do I argue this? Well, when someone commits a good work thinking it will save them, they are committing that work for themselves, not for God. To them, Jesus will say: "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

Being a Christian means having faith and allowing CHRIST to work through us, recognizing that our own works are incapable of saving our soul.

Also, again I ask, how can someone love God but reject Christ?
How can a non-Christian love the true God?
 
bdw, why are you saying that they are people that don't believe in Christ and His salvation? does it say that, or is this understood somehow?

the reason i ask, is because both groups acknowledged jesus as Lord, they addressed Him as Lord brent?
But one group was TRUELY compassionate and merciful to the sick, needy, STRANGERS, prisoners.... LOVING, and showing mercy to their ''neighbors'', even those neighbors that are enemies, or that differ with their beliefs or even those that were criminals.... they treated them humanely and with compassion, as they would hope to be treated if they were in the same such circumstances....

The other group THOUGHT they too showed compassion in what they did to help others....but the Lord rejected and rebuked their self congratulatory thoughts of how they gave to charity and others, and told them that whatever they did not do for the least among them, they did not do for Him...and casted them...

so, how, out of this parable, do you get what you say....that he was speaking to those that had faith or belief in him and those that do not, and that this parable is about faith verses being about works or being about true faith bringing good works?
care
 
You don't capitalize "he" whenever you reference God. Many people mistakenly believe that we capitlize "God" and don't capitalize "gods" because God is special. That's not true. It's just that you're referencing a person whenever you talk about God. The same holds true whenever I talk about Joseph. Utter morons, however, have taken this to a crazy extent and have started capitalizing "he" when in reference to God, which is annoying and is bad grammar.
 
Care4all,

How can someone love God but reject Christ?
How can a non-Christian love the true God?

Care4all said:
bdw, why are you saying that they are people that don't believe in Christ and His salvation? does it say that, or is this understood somehow?
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In my opinon you've misunderstood. I believe Christ is separating the faithful from the religious. One one side are those who've been born again; on the other, people who live decent lives, and perform good works, but do not commit these good works for God; rather, they are committing these good works order order to attain salvation. That is the trick of works-based salvation. Satan wants us to believe we can be saved by works; he wants us to believe a lie.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. On judgement day, nobody will be saved for their works. Christ completed ALL the salvation work at Calvary. What more is there to say? :)

But one group was TRUELY compassionate and merciful to the sick, needy, STRANGERS, prisoners.... LOVING, and showing mercy to their ''neighbors'', even those neighbors that are enemies, or that differ with their beliefs or even those that were criminals.... they treated them humanely and with compassion, as they would hope to be treated if they were in the same such circumstances....
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Of course. And what they did, they did in FAITH. :) They did not do it for their own eternal gain (thinking works will save them); they did it because they wanted to do something for the Lord. This is why we're commanded to love our neighbors AND the Lord.

The "goat people" may have shown love to their neighbors, but the intent of their heart was evil, not good.

The other group THOUGHT they too showed compassion in what they did to help others....but the Lord rejected and rebuked their self congratulatory thoughts of how they gave to charity and others, and told them that whatever they did not do for the least among them, they did not do for Him...and casted them...

so, how, out of this parable, do you get what you say....that he was speaking to those that had faith or belief in him and those that do not, and that this parable is about faith verses being about works or being about true faith bringing good works?
care
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True faith will bear good fruit, this is true. James goes so far as to suggest we're justified by faith and works. I believe this is true. But the motivation to perform these good works is not from within ourselves, nor do we commit these good works for the sake of personal gain; the works come FROM Christ. In allowing Him to work through us, we are doing something FOR Him. :)

Regards,
Brent
 
Brent

How can someone love God but reject Christ?

I don't think they have necessarily rejected Christ Brent, if they have loved God with all of their hearts and souls...they just have not had the opportunity to learn about Christ or to know him...?

BUT if you believe that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all ONE, then HOW can YOU say that they don't know Christ? Maybe they don't know Christ in the HUMANLY way that YOU think they should KNOW him by professing His name out loud....but that does NOT mean that they don't know him through them knowing, and having faith, in God himself?

This is a common mistake of certain Christian groups imho, to judge those that differ with them religiously.....was the Samaratan man not saved because his religion was Pagan like? Or did he KNOW God, and what God asked of him as a human being?

I believe Ephesians was speaking to Gentiles/Christian groups when it spoke of being saved through grace alone and not through works, but that the good works will be there if we do have true faith...even with some nagging sins still present.

But those that have not had the chance to hear the Gospel and know the Gospel, yet also have faith in God will be judged on their Faith and works, by Christ on Judgement Day...imo...

And also note, since Christ is who gives judgement to all individuals that have lived on earth, no matter WHAT your religion or non religion has been, then it is ONLY up to Christ, to determine each individual's fate...are they writen in to the book of life or not.... So even those that have never professed a faith will be judged by Him, and I believe that he will judge their hearts and determine, as I said, their fate.

So, if Christ determines that they will have everlasting life and be with the Father, then it FULFILLS the Scripture that says no one gets to the Father but THORUGH ME, (Christ)....because even non believers will go through Christ on judgement day to "get there" imho.

How does someone in Timbuktoo get to know God, their creator? Why aren't they all murderers and rapists and thieves? Because God has seared the knowledge of Him and good from evil in to their hearts...whether they know it, or not....

there ends up being people that follow ALL of God's Laws all over the world without ever saying OUT LOUD that they believe in our God...and this is God's will FOR THEM....

and it is not for me to judge ANYONE ELSES DESTINY, or to claim to know their hearts and knowledge and acceptance of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit....other than knowing they are following all of God's laws without the Good News Book in hand... and to me, I see the HAND OF GOD in that by itself....

God Loves us ALL BDW....we are ALL his children is what the Good News Book says...thus, love the neighbor, as yourself...even those that differ with your beliefs and please consider not being so quick to judge their salvation....
 
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