Rule of Unintended Consequences

D

Dixie - In Memoriam

New member
"We didn't see this coming... none of us saw this coming!"
--Vice President Biden commenting on the 2009 Housing and Finance collapse.​

This is a most classic example of the Rule of Unintended Consequences being invoked by the Vice President. When Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd championed a measure to ease credit requirements for Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, the 'objective' was to make the "American Dream" possible for more Americans. Oh, it sounded like a splendid idea, even Republicans, including President Bush, were behind it. When the program was first rolled out, both Republicans and Democrats jockeyed to take credit for this wonderful and magnificent measure the government had taken, to make life better for the little guy. Very few politicians were speaking out against it, because they all knew they could always rely on the Rule of Unintended Consequences.

John McCain and others warned, easing these credit requirements would lead to a problem because we were giving homes to people who couldn't afford the loans, but their voices were muted by the celebratory rhetoric from politicos who relished the 'victory' for the little guy. Financial experts warned this would create a bubble in the real estate market, and eventually the chickens would come home to roost... again, the politicians ignored the warning and continued to gloat and bask in the glory of the moment... why? Well, they knew they had the old trusty Rule of Unintended Consequences to fall back on!

You see, with the Rule of Unintended Consequences, they realize anything can be promised, and need, want or desire can be met... we can literally have and do whatever we want, and never have to worry about answering for the consequences, because we can claim they were not the intent. Nobody wanted people who couldn't afford their houses to go into forclosure....that wasn't what was intended to be a consequence. No one wanted the housing and financial sectors to collapse...that wasn't the intent of what they did. So in the aftermath, we are plied with the Rule by Biden... we didn't have any idea this would happen! Unintended Consequences!

We continue to see this today, with the pinheads talking of raising taxes on "the rich." They have developed a perfectly plausible emotive plea, just like the poor people who couldn't get a loan for a house.... Here the "rich" people are with all their money, and we need it! They should pay it! We should take it from them because they don't deserve it and so many people who are suffering and hurting can use it! And everyone, including some moderate Republicans, line up to cheer for government to do something.... take action... raise the taxes on "the rich" so we can help the little guy! Just as before, the financial experts are warning us of the consequences, and just like before, the warnings are being ignored, because the INTENT is such a worthy one, and consequences be damned.

We see this in the pinhead bleats to cut military spending, some here have proposed cutting as much a 40% or more. Okay... what happens as a consequence? Has anyone thought about it? Military bases will have to close, towns will dry up and blow away in the dust, people will lose jobs, not to mention, our ability to defend ourselves becomes weaker. But because the emotive call can be made to morons and fools, it will be made. Those who despise the military, or disagree with recent US military actions, are quick to jump on the Emo-Train, and clamor for everyone else to join them. Cut the military budget by 40%! We don't need to be spending that money on military stuff, think of all the poor needy people it could help... don't even consider any of the consequences of our stupidity. Because, you see, when it comes time to face the consequences, they can look into the cameras and say... We had no idea... no one knew this would happen... We never saw this coming!​
 
Dix I think we could cut military spending by at least that. We're in about 5 wars and we don't need to be, we've got bases all over the world and we don't need them. We're spending money propping up NATO and the UN. Bring all our guys home, enforce the border and let the rest of the world see what its like with us not defending them against each other.
 
Damn Yankee said:
Dix I think we could cut military spending by at least that. We're in about 5 wars and we don't need to be, we've got bases all over the world and we don't need them. We're spending money propping up NATO and the UN. Bring all our guys home, enforce the border and let the rest of the world see what its like with us not defending them against each other.
Click to expand...

You are doing the same thing as the emotive liberals... letting your emotions dictate your actions. You want to teach the world a lesson by removing our bases abroad and letting them fend for themselves, but have you considered the consequences? What happens when the precious few democracies we've fostered all these years, go under? What happens when the Russians decide to invade Poland or re-constitute the Soviet Bloc? What about when radical Islamic tyrants take over Europe? When the rest of the world is consumed in war, chaos and turmoil, is not going to be the time to discover the consequences of removing US presence. That time is now, before it happens, before we do something utterly stupid.... but we can always say, we didn't have any idea THIS would happen!
 
Dixie said:
You are doing the same thing as the emotive liberals... letting your emotions dictate your actions. You want to teach the world a lesson by removing our bases abroad and letting them fend for themselves, but have you considered the consequences? What happens when the precious few democracies we've fostered all these years, go under? What happens when the Russians decide to invade Poland or re-constitute the Soviet Bloc? What about when radical Islamic tyrants take over Europe? When the rest of the world is consumed in war, chaos and turmoil, is not going to be the time to discover the consequences of removing US presence. That time is now, before it happens, before we do something utterly stupid.... but we can always say, we didn't have any idea THIS would happen!
Click to expand...

Dix I've always been respectful of you so I'd appreciate you not using the word "liberal" when describing me, and instead respond with facts and equally respectful dialog.

I just don't see the need to be the world's cop. Let them kill each other, there will be less competition for oil and rare earth minerals.
 
Damn Yankee said:
Dix I've always been respectful of you so I'd appreciate you not using the word "liberal" when describing me, and instead respond with facts and equally respectful dialog.

I just don't see the need to be the world's cop. Let them kill each other, there will be less competition for oil and rare earth minerals.
Click to expand...

I wasn't implying you are a liberal, but you are subscribing to the same emotive 'feelings-oriented' way of thinking on this. The FACTS are, we have a military presence in various parts of the world to protect American interests. If we remove that presence, our interests will no longer be protected, and the consequences are obvious. Have you considered all of those interests entirely? Are you SURE you want to abandon them? When we abandon all our allies in Europe, do you think they won't be inclined to partner with the Communists? When we remove our military presence from the middle east, do you think the oil we so vitally need will remain safe? What happens when the snowball effect of not having a presence in the rest of the world, culminates in a juggernaut we can't possibly defeat?

I don't see the need for a lot of things, but I am smart enough to know that most things are done for a good reason. Before we start tearing down something we have had in place for decades, it might not be a bad idea to evaluate what that would mean, what the consequences would be, and if we can live with that, don't you think? As opposed to having some emotive knee-jerk reaction because we FEEL a particular way.
 
Dixie said:
I wasn't implying you are a liberal, but you are subscribing to the same emotive 'feelings-oriented' way of thinking on this. The FACTS are, we have a military presence in various parts of the world to protect American interests. If we remove that presence, our interests will no longer be protected, and the consequences are obvious. Have you considered all of those interests entirely? Are you SURE you want to abandon them? When we abandon all our allies in Europe, do you think they won't be inclined to partner with the Communists? When we remove our military presence from the middle east, do you think the oil we so vitally need will remain safe? What happens when the snowball effect of not having a presence in the rest of the world, culminates in a juggernaut we can't possibly defeat?

I don't see the need for a lot of things, but I am smart enough to know that most things are done for a good reason. Before we start tearing down something we have had in place for decades, it might not be a bad idea to evaluate what that would mean, what the consequences would be, and if we can live with that, don't you think? As opposed to having some emotive knee-jerk reaction because we FEEL a particular way.
Click to expand...

Well Dix I'm smart enough to realize that once a government program starts its nearly impossible for it to be stopped. Do you really think Germany and Japan will turn commie if we pull our bases out of their countries?
 
Damn Yankee said:
Well Dix I'm smart enough to realize that once a government program starts its nearly impossible for it to be stopped. Do you really think Germany and Japan will turn commie if we pull our bases out of their countries?
Click to expand...

I think there are a lot of places that depend on the financial and military backing of the US, and if we abandon them, they won't have another choice. They can't fight off the Communists by themselves, and they would be foolish to try. So they would strike deals with them, and we'd lose their trade, and maybe that's fine for now... but it will eventually turn very ugly, and we'll be forced to get involved again, just like we have in the past. You know, this 'isolationist' attitude of letting them fend for themselves, is not something new to Americans. This same mindset was present before WWII, before WWI, as a matter of fact, it can be traced back to the very founding of our nation. There have always been those who thought it best we mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others, but history has proven we can't do that and expect the world to live in peace and harmony, that ain't going to happen. We can either stand for Liberty and Freedom, or we can sit and watch it quelled by tyrants and dictators. Those are the choices, there is no 'middle ground.'
 
\(\(\(\/)/)/)/ said:
Those crafty Mexicans will probably invade Germany to steal his $7 million.
Click to expand...

I was thinking more along the lines of the Greeks getting the 7 Million Dollar Man's money. Sitting there watching the Gyros slowly turn anticipating their freshly made Souvlaki while drinking ouzo. After the meal leisurely spending another hour or so drinking mocha coffee as a compliment to their baklava. The next thing they know lunch has ended at 3 pm. and it's time to return to work to punch out for the day having appreciated Damn Yankee's contribution to the less fortunate.

Who knows, they may even name a small cafe after him. A legacy in honor of a hard-working, nose to the grindstone, shoulder to the wheel, take personal responsibility kind of guy.

"Damn's Demitasse." Has a nice ring to it.:D
 
Dixie said:
I think there are a lot of places that depend on the financial and military backing of the US, and if we abandon them, they won't have another choice. They can't fight off the Communists by themselves, and they would be foolish to try. So they would strike deals with them, and we'd lose their trade, and maybe that's fine for now... but it will eventually turn very ugly, and we'll be forced to get involved again, just like we have in the past. You know, this 'isolationist' attitude of letting them fend for themselves, is not something new to Americans. This same mindset was present before WWII, before WWI, as a matter of fact, it can be traced back to the very founding of our nation. There have always been those who thought it best we mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others, but history has proven we can't do that and expect the world to live in peace and harmony, that ain't going to happen. We can either stand for Liberty and Freedom, or we can sit and watch it quelled by tyrants and dictators. Those are the choices, there is no 'middle ground.'
Click to expand...

"There have always been those who thought it best we mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others, but history has proven we can't do that and expect the world to live in peace and harmony,..."

So, you are for One World Government as long as it's your government. Damn, Dixie! You're just full of surprises.
 
apple0154 said:
"There have always been those who thought it best we mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others, but history has proven we can't do that and expect the world to live in peace and harmony,..."

So, you are for One World Government as long as it's your government. Damn, Dixie! You're just full of surprises.
Click to expand...

No, I am for democracy and freedom for all, and I think we should stand for that around the world with whomever wants it.
 
Dixie said:
You are doing the same thing as the emotive liberals... letting your emotions dictate your actions. You want to teach the world a lesson by removing our bases abroad and letting them fend for themselves, but have you considered the consequences? What happens when the precious few democracies we've fostered all these years, go under? What happens when the Russians decide to invade Poland or re-constitute the Soviet Bloc? What about when radical Islamic tyrants take over Europe? When the rest of the world is consumed in war, chaos and turmoil, is not going to be the time to discover the consequences of removing US presence. That time is now, before it happens, before we do something utterly stupid.... but we can always say, we didn't have any idea THIS would happen!
Click to expand...

Dixie, with all due respect, I think we can cut the DoD budget by 30% to 40% and still not become an isolationist nation. We need to uphold our promises, but we could do so with a leaner military and less waste.
 
WinterBorn said:
Dixie, with all due respect, I think we can cut the DoD budget by 30% to 40% and still not become an isolationist nation. We need to uphold our promises, but we could do so with a leaner military and less waste.
Click to expand...

The biggest waste is most of the welfare.
 
Liberty said:
The biggest waste is most of the welfare.
Click to expand...

And the social services segment of the gov't should be cut as well. I simply disagree that the DoD's budget should be left alone in this economic disastor we have created.
 
WinterBorn said:
Dixie, with all due respect, I think we can cut the DoD budget by 30% to 40% and still not become an isolationist nation. We need to uphold our promises, but we could do so with a leaner military and less waste.
Click to expand...

Here's what I think we could probably do... have a bipartisan commission do a complete evaluation on all the programs and agencies affiliated with DoD, and target waste and redundancy. What actual percentage that would be, I have no idea... perhaps it would be in the neighborhood of 30-40%... but what we DON'T need to do, is glum on to some liberal anti-military emotive call to do an across the board blind cut of all military spending. That just doesn't need to happen, and it would be ignorant for us to make such a move. That's what the liberals want to do, hell, some of them would be giddy to see us completely dismantle the military altogether!

And again... regardless of where you are on thinking we need to cut military spending, whenever we do make those cuts, it will mean people lose their jobs and bases close. I am not so sure that NOW is the time you want to do that, maybe after we get the economy going again... then we can talk about it. Right now, the liberals want you to buy in to this idea that cutting military spending is the answer to our deficit problem, when it simply isn't. As I pointed out before, you could completely defund the entire military, and it wouldn't pay for 1/2 of the DEFICIT for 1 year in Obama's budget. This is a demagogue, plain and simple.
 
WinterBorn said:
And the social services segment of the gov't should be cut as well. I simply disagree that the DoD's budget should be left alone in this economic disastor we have created.
Click to expand...

My opinions are focused on the federal government.

That being said,,,, there's a lot of cutting we could do.

Like giving money away to countries that hate us, and stop putting people (tax payers) through the legal system who haven't victimized anyone, and much more common sense cuts.
 
Last edited:
Dixie said:
I think there are a lot of places that depend on the financial and military backing of the US, and if we abandon them, they won't have another choice. They can't fight off the Communists by themselves, and they would be foolish to try. So they would strike deals with them, and we'd lose their trade, and maybe that's fine for now... but it will eventually turn very ugly, and we'll be forced to get involved again, just like we have in the past. You know, this 'isolationist' attitude of letting them fend for themselves, is not something new to Americans. This same mindset was present before WWII, before WWI, as a matter of fact, it can be traced back to the very founding of our nation. There have always been those who thought it best we mind our own business and stay out of the affairs of others, but history has proven we can't do that and expect the world to live in peace and harmony, that ain't going to happen. We can either stand for Liberty and Freedom, or we can sit and watch it quelled by tyrants and dictators. Those are the choices, there is no 'middle ground.'
Click to expand...
You didn't answer my question.
 
Damn Yankee said:
You didn't answer my question.
Click to expand...

You asked specifically about two countries. I don't know what Japan and Germany would do. The Germans routinely vote Socialists into power, so in a sense, they are already aligned with the Commies, or at least, a good chunk of the public supports communism. Japan is a different story, but again... who do you suppose they are more likely to ally with, if we're not going to help them? Please keep in mind, I am not saying we need to spend billions in foreign aid, I posted this thread to discuss the Rule of Unintended Consequences. If we eliminate all foreign aid, there will be a consequence, what will it be? I just want to get you to thinking about the consequence, rather than emotively clinging to some radical idea you haven't thought through.

I can understand the isolationist sentiments, why should we squander our blood and treasure for these third world governments? All these years of trying to be the world police, have driven us to the edge of bankruptcy, and it's easy to see why people are angry about it. But everything we do is tied to some American interest, there is a reason for our involvement. We need to think about the consequences of withdrawing from the world stage. Our country is not self-sufficient, we depend on other countries around the world for all sorts of things, we import far more than we export. So what do you suppose happens, when the world blows up into war and chaos and interferes dramatically with our way of life? Can we deal with $25 a gallon gas? What about when North Korea or Pakistan starts hurling nukes at their enemies? Can we deal with the ramifications of that? I know it sounds like I am being dramatic, but think about it... there is a reason for US presence around the world, and we need to consider all the consequences of removing that presence before we do it. Go look at history, we've tried isolationism before, and it did not work! Now here we are, years later, a nation full of history illiterates who think the best idea in the world is to become isolationist again. That comes with a cost. There are always consequences.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top