New York Special Election

[Topspin]

Republicans could easily gain and double that momentum br attacking military spending with the same zeal as they ravage the poor. Don't hold your breath.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I wondered how long it would take before people on the left were quoting Gingrich. For somebody who engineered the Contract with America and understands the strength in the capability to nationalize an election it surprised me how he answered those questions at that interview.

I'm interested in how Pawlenty is approaching it. Going to the strongholds of each of the program to tell them we'll have to work on cutting or changing each of the programs.

Starting in Iowa with Ethanol was impressive.

He had better be impressive in Iowa, Pawlenty is pretty much gambling it all there.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

i really don't see why dems are jumping around claiming this is a big victory....

a dem called himself a tea party member and took about 10% of the votes, the former seat holder was a pub who got busted in a pic sex type scandal....

but go ahead and declare a big empty victory

You're right. It's not a big victory. It is however a big indicator of the political consequences of trying to end a program as popular as Medicare and replacing it with Ryancare.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Republicans could easily gain and double that momentum br attacking military spending with the same zeal as they ravage the poor. Don't hold your breath.

They could also gain a lot of support by just admiting that not only do we need to make significant cuts in military spending but that modest tax increases will be needed to provide the additional revenue to balance the budget and pay down the debt. Between doing that, raising the Social Security cap on the pay roll tax and completing health care reform to include a single payer system and price controls as the rest of the modern industrialized world does, this problem can be solved.

The problem we currently have is what happens when political ideology becomes more important then sound governance and both parties are to blame but I see the Repelicans as being the more intransigent party. The one least likely to compromise to solve these problems.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You're right. It's not a big victory. It is however a big indicator of the political consequences of trying to end a program as popular as Medicare and replacing it with Ryancare.

No, it really isn't a big indicator of anything other than the fact that the Dems are better organized during special elections than Reps. Add in the typical bullshit FEAR MONGERING that the Dems have nearly perfected and you get a victory.

Medicare DOES NOT END under Ryan. No matter how many times you and your masters propagate that FEAR MONGERING line of crap, it remains nothing more than a complete LIE.

But as I stated, the Dems are masterful at FEAR MONGERING. They do it with SS and they do it with Medicare/Medicaid very effectively.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

On this I would agree as well. Not to mention they cannot take tax hikes off the board completely.

Well that's what I meant by the revenue side. Modest tax increases are going to be needed. Considering that we all ready have historically low tax rates, I don't see that as being to onerous. A big chunk of revenue can be obtained by simply allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire and even if that came to pass we would still have historically low tax rates.

 

[DamnYankee]

Here's an idea: STOP SPENDING.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

No, it really isn't a big indicator of anything other than the fact that the Dems are better organized during special elections than Reps. Add in the typical bullshit FEAR MONGERING that the Dems have nearly perfected and you get a victory.

Medicare DOES NOT END under Ryan. No matter how many times you and your masters propagate that FEAR MONGERING line of crap, it remains nothing more than a complete LIE.

But as I stated, the Dems are masterful at FEAR MONGERING. They do it with SS and they do it with Medicare/Medicaid very effectively.

Dems? Better organized? Dems? Are you kidding me? Have you ever been active in politics? Dude I was active as a Republican in college as a Young Republican, then as a committee member in Ohio District 8 (John Boehner) and then Ohio District 15 (Debra Price at that time) and I'm hear to tell you that Dems have never been as well organized in my life time either in money, political infrastructure or boots on the ground as Republicans are. As for fear mongering. Call it what you want. The fact are clear. Ryancare would end Medicare as we know it and replace it with a very risky market based systems that's, essentially, what we had in the past whose failures led to the development of the Medicare program in the first place. Now you can call it fear mongering (isn't that what Repelicans did during the HC debate with comments about death panels, etc?) but that doesn't change the fact that Medicare is a very popular program and those who would undermine it face very serious political consequences. If your'e not objective enough to realize this fact, you're a political noob.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Here's an idea: STOP SPENDING.

Fine. Can we start with the military first?

 

[Damocles]

Dems? Better organized? Dems? Are you kidding me? Have you ever been active in politics? Dude I was active as a Republican in college as a Young Republican, then as a committee member in Ohio District 8 (John Boehner) and then Ohio District 15 (Debra Price at that time) and I'm hear to tell you that Dems have never been as well organized in my life time either in money, political infrastructure or boots on the ground as Republicans are. As for fear mongering. Call it what you want. The fact are clear. Ryancare would end Medicare as we know it and replace it with a very risky market based systems that's, essentially, what we had in the past whose failures led to the development of the Medicare program in the first place. Now you can call it fear mongering (isn't that what Repelicans did during the HC debate with comments about death panels, etc?) but that doesn't change the fact that Medicare is a very popular program and those who would undermine it face very serious political consequences. If your'e not objective enough to realize this fact, you're a political noob.

Wow, everywhere I go the republicans are playing catch up on everything. Calling, get out the vote, money, et al. Your anecdotes notwithstanding, the Ds have an up on communication and structure within their party from e-mails and use of the interwebs to even simple things like making sure the voters get to the polls.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Dems? Better organized? Dems? Are you kidding me?

In special elections... YES.... they are better organized. Or do you think they keep winning these special elections by luck? They keep winning them even at times when their party in general is out of favor? They win them just as they did the NY one. Focused message... this time it was FEAR MONGERING on 'those evil reps want old people to die'.

Have you ever been active in politics? Dude I was active as a Republican in college as a Young Republican, then as a committee member in Ohio District 8 (John Boehner) and then Ohio District 15 (Debra Price at that time) and I'm hear to tell you that Dems have never been as well organized in my life time either in money, political infrastructure or boots on the ground as Republicans are.

Oh great, anecdotal 'evidence'. Tell us genius.... were you ANY of those in the past decade? Did you happen to witness the 2008 elections? You are the one completely oblivious to how things are today if you think the Dems are not more organized in these special elections. As for boots on the ground, all they have to do is call upon their union allies and they generate far more boots than the Reps could ever gain.

As for fear mongering. Call it what you want. The fact are clear.

I will call it what it is. FEAR MONGERING. The FACTS are indeed clear. Seniors over 55 would see NO CHANGE. Disabled would still be provided health care. The poor's health care would STILL be subsidized. You just don't like the changes.

Ryancare would end Medicare as we know it

Well gee, by that standard..... ANY change at all to the system would 'end Medicare as we know it'

Guess what moron.... if we don't change the current Medicare system..... IT IS GOING TO IMPLODE. THAT IS A FACT.

and replace it with a very risky market based systems that's, essentially, what we had in the past whose failures led to the development of the Medicare program in the first place.

Tell us.... what are the risks you refer to..... do elaborate. Surely you can do this, because if not..... it simply confirms you are simply FEAR MONGERING with NO BASIS for your claims.

Now you can call it fear mongering (isn't that what Repelicans did during the HC debate with comments about death panels, etc?) but that doesn't change the fact that Medicare is a very popular program and those who would undermine it face very serious political consequences. If your'e not objective enough to realize this fact, you're a political noob.

Ah yes.... the 'The Reps did it too' defense. Yes, they did.... AND? Does that make it right for the Dems to do?

Yes, Medicare is popular. How popular will it be when it goes bankrupt dolt?

Yes, anyone suggesting changes is indeed going to encounter severe headwinds.... predominantly because the Dems will be blowing gale force winds of FEAR MONGERING to scare the public into thinking old people and poor people are about to get slaughtered.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Dems? Better organized? Dems? Are you kidding me?

In special elections... YES.... they are better organized. Or do you think they keep winning these special elections by luck? They keep winning them even at times when their party in general is out of favor? They win them just as they did the NY one. Focused message... this time it was FEAR MONGERING on 'those evil reps want old people to die'.

Have you ever been active in politics? Dude I was active as a Republican in college as a Young Republican, then as a committee member in Ohio District 8 (John Boehner) and then Ohio District 15 (Debra Price at that time) and I'm hear to tell you that Dems have never been as well organized in my life time either in money, political infrastructure or boots on the ground as Republicans are.

Oh great, anecdotal 'evidence'. Tell us genius.... were you ANY of those in the past decade? Did you happen to witness the 2008 elections? You are the one completely oblivious to how things are today if you think the Dems are not more organized in these special elections. As for boots on the ground, all they have to do is call upon their union allies and they generate far more boots than the Reps could ever gain.

As for fear mongering. Call it what you want. The fact are clear.

I will call it what it is. FEAR MONGERING. The FACTS are indeed clear. Seniors over 55 would see NO CHANGE. Disabled would still be provided health care. The poor's health care would STILL be subsidized. You just don't like the changes.

Ryancare would end Medicare as we know it

Well gee, by that standard..... ANY change at all to the system would 'end Medicare as we know it'

Guess what moron.... if we don't change the current Medicare system..... IT IS GOING TO IMPLODE. THAT IS A FACT.

and replace it with a very risky market based systems that's, essentially, what we had in the past whose failures led to the development of the Medicare program in the first place.

Tell us.... what are the risks you refer to..... do elaborate. Surely you can do this, because if not..... it simply confirms you are simply FEAR MONGERING with NO BASIS for your claims.

Now you can call it fear mongering (isn't that what Repelicans did during the HC debate with comments about death panels, etc?) but that doesn't change the fact that Medicare is a very popular program and those who would undermine it face very serious political consequences. If your'e not objective enough to realize this fact, you're a political noob.

Ah yes.... the 'The Reps did it too' defense. Yes, they did.... AND? Does that make it right for the Dems to do?

Yes, Medicare is popular. How popular will it be when it goes bankrupt dolt?

Yes, anyone suggesting changes is indeed going to encounter severe headwinds.... predominantly because the Dems will be blowing gale force winds of FEAR MONGERING to scare the public into thinking old people and poor people are about to get slaughtered.

 

[DamnYankee]

Fine. Can we start with the military first?

How about if we start with what the feds aren't constitutionally authorized to do?

 

[Bonestorm]

Do tell us what it did to lower health care costs: please, be specific. LMAO.... please show me in RYAN's plan where it refuses to pay for seniors.

Ryan's plan doesn't pay for care. It provides "premium support" for a senior to purchase insurance in the individual insurance market. The amount of premium support is insufficient and over time will require seniors to pay more and more towards the premium, if they can afford it at all. It is a terrible, terrible, terrible plan. It is "Obamacare" for seniors, a much more sicker population and much much much more expensive to insure. It is bad policy.

Because then idiots like you make comments like this: " As for preventing Meidcare from going broke, it isn't hard when you just refuse to pay for things and instead leave it up to seniors."

That is an accurate observation. Medicare is expensive because it pays for care and care is expensive. It needs more funding because the population is getting older. By changing the system from one where the government pays for care, whatever that may cost, to one where the government's expenditures are capped at a fixed dollar amount is very easy to do. The trouble is that it leaves the costs on seniors and their families.

It is the normal FEAR MONGERING tactic of the far left morons.... and it is quite ironic that you use the very thing I stated the far left morons would use if everyone was included.

Accurately describing a policy and what its effects will be is not FEAR MONGERING (by the way, since the 1990s the approved term is "Mediscare"). It is telling the truth.

LMAO... so again... it won't exist because YOU say it won't. In other words, you don't like the changes so again you resort to the typical FEAR MONGERING bullshit of 'they want to eliminate Medicare'

It does eliminate Medicare and turns it into something else entirely.

Seriously moron.... I LINKED YOU TO HIS SITE. If you are so certain HIS SITE is wrong about HIS POSITION.... then do provide the evidence for your claim. I provided a link.... use it to educate yourself on RYAN's position.

Your link is inaccurate. Just go look at the CBO study on Ryan's plan that was published in April and what it says.

Of course... so you don't like HOW it is paid for so you will therefore pretend it isn't paid for. Thank you for acknowledging that.

I don't like that the premium support payments are insufficient for seniors to obtain health insurance comparable to what they receive under Medicare at a price that they can afford.

Ah yes, the traditional 'intellectual' response when you cannot refute any of those facts.

FARGLE BARGLE.

Do you deny that Seniors over 55 are not affected?

Yes, I do. As I sated previously in this thread and others, while people currently 55 and over will still have Medicare, because the pool of people participating in Medicare will steadily decrease over time, doctors may not be willing to accept it because it is less generous when it comes to payments for services. One of the primary reasons that Medicare has lower reimbursement rates than private insurance (look to Medicare Advantage if you need confirmation of this) is that Medicare has lots and lots and lots of old sick people so it makes sense for doctors to accept the low rates because of the volume of patients. Where that volume of patients decreases because there are no new enrollees, fewer doctors will accept Medicare and its reimbursement rates. So, while people over 55 may still have Medicare, they may not be able to find doctors that accept it. In this way, they are affected.

Is it the disabled that you believe are affected? If so, do show us how.

The disabled are affected by changing Medicaid to a block grant program, which, like the vouchers for Medicare, will be inadequate to provide care for those that need to use Medicaid for their health care, including the disabled.

The poor are still subsidized.... If you disagree and this isn't just more FEAR MONGERING.... then again.... SHOW US where it denies them coverage.

As with the disabled, the poor utilize Medicaid for their healthcare and the block grants are insufficient to provide for their care.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Wow, everywhere I go the republicans are playing catch up on everything. Calling, get out the vote, money, et al. Your anecdotes notwithstanding, the Ds have an up on communication and structure within their party from e-mails and use of the interwebs to even simple things like making sure the voters get to the polls.

That may be true locally where you live. I seriously doubt that it's so nationally. If it is true nationally, it's the first time that's happened in my life time and is probably a result of the Repelicans alienating moderates and main street professionals like myself. When I was active in Republican politics from 1981 through 1994 Republicans always had an overwhelming advantage in those categories and always had had in most peoples living memories. That's why I'm very skeptical that you are factually correct on this. Dems may have a lead in terms of Presidential politics but as a whole, I'd bet Repelicans still have a sizeable advantage nation wide.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

How about if we start with what the feds aren't constitutionally authorized to do?

And I'm assuming that a world leading constitutional authority such as your self would make that determination? [/sarcasm]

Quit dancing on the head of a pin and give me an honest answer. Would you be willing to start with the military first?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

In special elections... YES.... they are better organized. Or do you think they keep winning these special elections by luck? They keep winning them even at times when their party in general is out of favor? They win them just as they did the NY one. Focused message... this time it was FEAR MONGERING on 'those evil reps want old people to die'.



Oh great, anecdotal 'evidence'. Tell us genius.... were you ANY of those in the past decade? Did you happen to witness the 2008 elections? You are the one completely oblivious to how things are today if you think the Dems are not more organized in these special elections. As for boots on the ground, all they have to do is call upon their union allies and they generate far more boots than the Reps could ever gain.



I will call it what it is. FEAR MONGERING. The FACTS are indeed clear. Seniors over 55 would see NO CHANGE. Disabled would still be provided health care. The poor's health care would STILL be subsidized. You just don't like the changes.



Well gee, by that standard..... ANY change at all to the system would 'end Medicare as we know it'

Guess what moron.... if we don't change the current Medicare system..... IT IS GOING TO IMPLODE. THAT IS A FACT.



Tell us.... what are the risks you refer to..... do elaborate. Surely you can do this, because if not..... it simply confirms you are simply FEAR MONGERING with NO BASIS for your claims.



Ah yes.... the 'The Reps did it too' defense. Yes, they did.... AND? Does that make it right for the Dems to do?

Yes, Medicare is popular. How popular will it be when it goes bankrupt dolt?

Yes, anyone suggesting changes is indeed going to encounter severe headwinds.... predominantly because the Dems will be blowing gale force winds of FEAR MONGERING to scare the public into thinking old people and poor people are about to get slaughtered.

Just what I thought. You're a poitical noob with no practical or real world experience in politics.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Just what I thought. You're a poitical noob with no practical or real world experience in politics.

Just what I thought.... you are a FEAR MONGER who has absolutely no capability to refute anything I wrote so you resort to stupid comments like the above.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That may be true locally where you live. I seriously doubt that it's so nationally. If it is true nationally, it's the first time that's happened in my life time and is probably a result of the Repelicans alienating moderates and main street professionals like myself. When I was active in Republican politics from 1981 through 1994 Republicans always had an overwhelming advantage in those categories and always had had in most peoples living memories. That's why I'm very skeptical that you are factually correct on this. Dems may have a lead in terms of Presidential politics but as a whole, I'd bet Repelicans still have a sizeable advantage nation wide.

LMAO.... you are actually pretending to be 'main street'??? You are one of the fringe idiots. You are nowhere close to being 'main street'. You are the polar opposite of ditzie.

 

[DamnYankee]

And I'm assuming that a world leading constitutional authority such as your self would make that determination? [/sarcasm]

Quit dancing on the head of a pin and give me an honest answer. Would you be willing to start with the military first?

You liberals pretend that The Constitution is some kind of complicated, mysterious document, but the fact is that it's written in plain language. Read Article I Section 8 and you'll find a listing of enumerated powers that the federal government is authorized to do. It's not a long list, and even you should be able to understand it.

Take that list and compare it to a listing of federal agencies. If an agency doesn't provide services that are on that list then its funding should be cut to zero. Obviously it can't be done instantly and some programs should be dissolved over time. But they should all be dissolved, and in accordance with the 10th Amendment that power should resort "to the states, or to the people". And if something is really all that important, then a Constitutional Amendment can be passed to continue the program.

With regards to military spending, of course their budget should be cut. There's a lot of waste there and I'm sure inefficiencies. Soldiers' pay and benefits, however, are too damn low IMHO, but that is a very small part of their overall budget.