Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime

[zappasguitar]

Two things you need to pay attention to, Dixie. First of all, we are not saying it was done hundreds of times, thousands of times, or even dozens of times. In fact, I haven't seen anyone mention how many times it was done except for those defending it. The topic came up because of the internet badasses bragging that bin Laden's execution was due to waterboarding. In that event, like the 2 thwarted attacks, waterboarding provided a piece of the puzzle. It was not the only piece, and perhaps not even the best piece. To claim that bin Laden would not have been found and the two terrorist attacks would not have been stopped without waterboarding is ridiculous. You simply cannot know that.

Next, when you refer to the "we are better than that", perhaps it would have been nice if you had read those posts more carefully. If you had you would have noticed the phrase "When we, was a nation..." We as a nation react differently from the way you and I would react personally. If my wife were murdered by some guy from Montgomery AL, I would want to torture him and kill him with my bare hands. But we, as a nation, do not allow that. Because we, as a nation are better than that.

In another thread you ranted on and on about not abandoning principles. Is that just in elections?

It's HIS principles he believes are important...your principles can go f*ck themselves...at least that's how I figure he's going to respond.

 

[zappasguitar]

Waterboarding supplied the first piece of the puzzle. Without it no one can say that we would have found bin Laden.

prove it.

 

[WinterBorn]

It's a stupid argument... it's like saying Green Bay may have won the Super Bowl without Aaron Rogers! Well, yeah... maybe so... but they didn't! They won the Super Bowl WITH Aaron Rogers, and he was the MVP! Now, maybe he didn't deserve to be the MVP, maybe the entire game was determined by the strength of the offensive line? This is all speculation and conjecture after the fact, but the fact remains, Green Bay DID win the Super Bowl, WITH Aaron Rogers at QB, and he won the MVP. Those are the FACTS!

And the FACT is that we have called waterboarding torture. Our military called it torture when it was done to us by others. Those who have had it done to them agree it is torture. And the FACT is that we have signed treaties swearing we would not torture.

And the FACT is that we, as a nation, never swore not to use Aaron Rogers.

If you are going to suspend your principles and morals based on the idea that the end justifies the means, you need to at least be sure the means are responsible for the end.

 

[zappasguitar]

It's a stupid argument... it's like saying Green Bay may have won the Super Bowl without Aaron Rogers! Well, yeah... maybe so... but they didn't! They won the Super Bowl WITH Aaron Rogers, and he was the MVP! Now, maybe he didn't deserve to be the MVP, maybe the entire game was determined by the strength of the offensive line? This is all speculation and conjecture after the fact, but the fact remains, Green Bay DID win the Super Bowl, WITH Aaron Rogers at QB, and he won the MVP. Those are the FACTS!

Green Bay DID win the SuperBowl without Aaron Rogers...they did it with Bart Starr and with Brett Favre at QB, so your ridiculous argument goes right out the freakin window right there.

 

[DamnYankee]

prove it.

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2011/...plied-intel-that-led-to-bin-laden-video-5311/

 

[WinterBorn]

http://freedomslighthouse.net/2011/...plied-intel-that-led-to-bin-laden-video-5311/

From the article you linked:

"Williams also tried to pin him down (begins at around the 3:50 mark) on whether the intelligence that led to Bin Laden was obtained through waterboarding. Panetta tried skirting the question first. He said there were so many different pieces of evidence that it was hard to settle on one piece as the deciding factor. Williams then tried asking Panetta if he was denying that waterboarding helped to obtain the key intelligence that led to Bin Laden. Panetta then said, “NO,” and went on to say that it was used on some of the detainees that gave up information – but that there is no way to know if the same information could not have been obtained through other techniques."


Sounds like he agrees with me. Thanks, SM.

 

[DamnYankee]

If you're so sure of that fact then you should have no problem citing some evidence to back your allegation...

My allegation? You should be ax'ing your fellow libtard Bfgrn for evidence on how waterboarding "creates terrorists". I'm guessing though that you'll "forget" to respond to now.

 

[WinterBorn]

It's a stupid argument... it's like saying Green Bay may have won the Super Bowl without Aaron Rogers! Well, yeah... maybe so... but they didn't! They won the Super Bowl WITH Aaron Rogers, and he was the MVP! Now, maybe he didn't deserve to be the MVP, maybe the entire game was determined by the strength of the offensive line? This is all speculation and conjecture after the fact, but the fact remains, Green Bay DID win the Super Bowl, WITH Aaron Rogers at QB, and he won the MVP. Those are the FACTS!

Now, did Green Bay win with ONLY Aaron Rogers? Are you saying that without that one man there is no way they could have won?

 

[DamnYankee]

i'll try to do this slowly, so you can follow. You're saying that it's illegal to waterboard uniformed soldiers, but it's legal to waterboard terrorists because they are not uniformed soldiers. You're creating a higher class of people based on a chosen profession. It's exactly like creating extra rights for police officers simply because they are police officers.

can you follow that now?

So what's your point? Other than to continue your beef with authority figures?

 

[Bfgrn]

You fucking retard and founding father hater. Waterboarding didn't "create" terrorists. Stop being so stupid.

Here is the man who headed the team of interrogators who successfully hunted down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq and the mastermind of the campaign of suicide bombings that had helped plunge Iraq into civil war.

Torture recruited terrorists

As a senior interrogator in Iraq, I conducted more than three hundred interrogations and monitored more than one thousand. I heard numerous foreign fighters state that the reason they came to Iraq to fight was because of the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay. Our policy of torture and abuse is Al-Qaeda's number one recruiting tool. These same insurgents have killed hundreds, if not thousands, of our troops in Iraq, not to mention Iraqi civilians. Torture and abuse are counterproductive in the long term and, ultimately, cost us more lives than they save.

Torture and abuse cost American lives.

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

A) Torture doesn't work

"Torture is extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information.

 

[DamnYankee]

but that there is no way to know if the same information could not have been obtained through other techniques.

In other words, waterboarding worked, and Panetta can't say that it didn't, no matter how hard he wants to spin it.

 

[zappasguitar]

My allegation? You should be ax'ing your fellow libtard Bfgrn for evidence on how waterboarding "creates terrorists". I'm guessing though that you'll "forget" to respond to now.

I knew it...I knew you couldn't show any evidence to back your allegation...thanks for admitting as much...ROTFLMAO!

 

[WinterBorn]

In other words, waterboarding worked, and Panetta can't say that it didn't, no matter how hard he wants to spin it.

No, Panetta is saying that there is no way to tell which method could have obtained the needed info, and he is not saying bin Laden wouldn't have been found without waterboarding.

 

[DamnYankee]

Here is the man who headed the team of interrogators who successfully hunted down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq and the mastermind of the campaign of suicide bombings that had helped plunge Iraq into civil war.

Torture recruited terrorists

As a senior interrogator in Iraq, I conducted more than three hundred interrogations and monitored more than one thousand. I heard numerous foreign fighters state that the reason they came to Iraq to fight was because of the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay. Our policy of torture and abuse is Al-Qaeda's number one recruiting tool. These same insurgents have killed hundreds, if not thousands, of our troops in Iraq, not to mention Iraqi civilians. Torture and abuse are counterproductive in the long term and, ultimately, cost us more lives than they save.

Torture and abuse cost American lives.

I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq. The large majority of suicide bombings in Iraq are still carried out by these foreigners. They are also involved in most of the attacks on U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq. It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

A) Torture doesn't work

"Torture is extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information.

You idiot of course the terrorists are going to say that. Who do you believe, those who would cut your dick off and stick it in your mouth or common sense? Common sense states that these guys became terrorists because America supports Israel, Israel is full of Jews and they hate Jews. Common sense states that they didn't become terrorists so they could get caught and get waterboarded.

 

[DamnYankee]

I knew it...I knew you couldn't show any evidence to back your allegation...thanks for admitting as much...ROTFLMAO!

You did exactly what I predicted: "forgot" to respond to my question.

I doesn't work that way idjit. The burden of proof is on your butt-buddy Bfgrn. Again: Ax him to prove his allegation.

 

[DamnYankee]

In other words, Panetta can't say that it didn't, no matter how hard he wants to spin it.

 

[Southern Chicken]

No we didn't. We had no idea of how OBL communicated with his generals in the field, or how alQaeda communicated with each other. It was through the waterboarding of KSM that we discovered OBL used couriers, and it was also through waterboarding we learned the name of the courier who ultimately led to OBL.

Through several media accounts we learned the courier's "nom de guerre"(A fictitious name) through waterboarding and learned the actual names of the couriers through our investigation and surveillance.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

That's not what George Washington believed Dixie. But why should we care. You folks on the right only use the words and actions of our founding fathers as a weapon to punish the living.

First of all, I have read a lot about Washington, and I can't find any instance where he ever faced radical Islamic terrorists. In fact, I can't find where such an entity even existed in that time period. So to try and maintain an argument that Washington wouldn't have advocated waterboarding in these extremely limited cases, is unfounded and impossible to make. It's like saying, if nukes had been around, Washington wouldn't have favored nuking the UK! We don't KNOW that... we can't KNOW that! All we can do, is speculate.

And again, I will point out the pinheads use of the word "punish" here.... as I said, it is as if they think waterboarding was used as "punishment" for being a terrorist, and that just isn't factually accurate. It was used (rarely) in gathering intelligence information, NOT as a punishment!

"IF' torture thwarted any attacks, it also created thousands more terrorists and led to the death of thousands of American soldiers in Iraq.

Okay, first of all... Waterboarding is NOT torture. That is an OPINION and not a FACT! It is an interrogation technique used to gather intelligence, and it is part of our US Special Forces training. It is documented and declassified FACT, that waterboarding led to information which SAVED American lives. And let me tell YOU what led to thousands more terrorists and deaths of American soldiers in Iraq.... the left wing anti-war pinheads who saw a political opportunity to continue fomenting anti-war sentiments, and over-exaggerating any aspect of anything Bush and Cheney were doing to combat the terror threat. Because YOU made it into some 'controversial' Big Deal... the terrorists were embolden, and the insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan were a direct result of THAT... what YOU did!

 

[Rune]

You know, I keep reading this silly nonsense, hoping to better understand pinheads, and I keep coming away with the feeling pinheads just don't have a clue and don't get it. You would think, our normal routine handling of enemy combatants, is to capture them, then immediately strap them to a waterboard, where they are punished for being terrorists. Let's be clear on a few things... it's a technique that has been used on exactly THREE people we've captured... of all the THOUSANDS.... only THREE got the waterboard treatment. It was believed they held information vital to the security of America and American citizens. It did in fact, lead to information which thwarted at least two terror attacks, one in LA and one in the UK. It is a technique used to train our own Special Forces.

S
This high horse argument that "we are better than that" is foolish, because we certainly AREN'T better than that. If someone had kidnapped your wife and children, and were holding them captive somewhere, and you somehow managed to capture one of the kidnappers, and were holding him in your basement... tell me you wouldn't use waterboarding to try and find out where your loved ones were being held? Is there anyone here who is "better than that?" I'm not! I would do everything short of killing the son of a bitch, to find my loved ones, and I believe most of you would do the same as well. So this argument that "we are better than that" is just plain unfounded and stupid. We're certainly NOT "better than that!"

Speak for your self Priscilla. Clearly, YOU are not better than that. Don't try to lump the rest of us into the slimy cubicle you ocupy.

 

[Canceled2]

No, Panetta is saying that there is no way to tell which method could have obtained the needed info, and he is not saying bin Laden wouldn't have been found without water boarding.

Water boarding broke KSM- Before using it he was not breaking-he was not talking. All sources attribute his talking with water boarding.