Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime

WinterBorn said:
We need to decide whether or not we are a shining example for the world or whether we are what our enemies claim we are.

Right is right. We either stand for what is right or we may as well resign ourselves to being the next super power to be relegated to a has-been pile.
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I agree.

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

Washington then issued an order to his troops regarding prisoners of war:

“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”

George Washington: No Torture on My Watch

One that confounds good and evil is an enemy to good.
Edmund Burke
 
It's making a caricature of someone's argument and arguing against that. Solitary the Liar does it all the time. :)
 
Damn Yankee said:
We need to stop being pussies about it and do what needs to be done. Waterboarding is very effective and safe, and in spite of what all you pansies whine is not torture.
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Christopher Hitchens had it done to him in your neck of the woods, he says it is torture. Maybe you could arrange an appointment to try it and report back?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/video/2008/hitchens_video200808
 
You know, I keep reading this silly nonsense, hoping to better understand pinheads, and I keep coming away with the feeling pinheads just don't have a clue and don't get it. You would think, our normal routine handling of enemy combatants, is to capture them, then immediately strap them to a waterboard, where they are punished for being terrorists. Let's be clear on a few things... it's a technique that has been used on exactly THREE people we've captured... of all the THOUSANDS.... only THREE got the waterboard treatment. It was believed they held information vital to the security of America and American citizens. It did in fact, lead to information which thwarted at least two terror attacks, one in LA and one in the UK. It is a technique used to train our own Special Forces.

This high horse argument that "we are better than that" is foolish, because we certainly AREN'T better than that. If someone had kidnapped your wife and children, and were holding them captive somewhere, and you somehow managed to capture one of the kidnappers, and were holding him in your basement... tell me you wouldn't use waterboarding to try and find out where your loved ones were being held? Is there anyone here who is "better than that?" I'm not! I would do everything short of killing the son of a bitch, to find my loved ones, and I believe most of you would do the same as well. So this argument that "we are better than that" is just plain unfounded and stupid. We're certainly NOT "better than that!"
 
tom prendergast said:
Christopher Hitchens had it done to him in your neck of the woods, he says it is torture.
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That's his opinion. A special ops guy called a radio show I was listening to and was waterboarded for training and he said he thought he was going to drown, but it's not torture.
 
Dixie said:
You know, I keep reading this silly nonsense, hoping to better understand pinheads, and I keep coming away with the feeling pinheads just don't have a clue and don't get it. You would think, our normal routine handling of enemy combatants, is to capture them, then immediately strap them to a waterboard, where they are punished for being terrorists. Let's be clear on a few things... it's a technique that has been used on exactly THREE people we've captured... of all the THOUSANDS.... only THREE got the waterboard treatment. It was believed they held information vital to the security of America and American citizens. It did in fact, lead to information which thwarted at least two terror attacks, one in LA and one in the UK. It is a technique used to train our own Special Forces.

This high horse argument that "we are better than that" is foolish, because we certainly AREN'T better than that. If someone had kidnapped your wife and children, and were holding them captive somewhere, and you somehow managed to capture one of the kidnappers, and were holding him in your basement... tell me you wouldn't use waterboarding to try and find out where your loved ones were being held? Is there anyone here who is "better than that?" I'm not! I would do everything short of killing the son of a bitch, to find my loved ones, and I believe most of you would do the same as well. So this argument that "we are better than that" is just plain unfounded and stupid. We're certainly NOT "better than that!"
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That's not what George Washington believed Dixie. But why should we care. You folks on the right only use the words and actions of our founding fathers as a weapon to punish the living.

"IF' torture thwarted any attacks, it also created thousands more terrorists and led to the death of thousands of American soldiers in Iraq.
 
Bfgrn said:
That's not what George Washington believed Dixie. But why should we care. You folks on the right only use the words and actions of our founding fathers as a weapon to punish the living.

"IF' torture thwarted any attacks, it also created thousands more terrorists and led to the death of thousands of American soldiers in Iraq.
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You fucking retard and founding father hater. Waterboarding didn't "create" terrorists. Stop being so stupid.
 
Dixie said:
You know, I keep reading this silly nonsense, hoping to better understand pinheads, and I keep coming away with the feeling pinheads just don't have a clue and don't get it. You would think, our normal routine handling of enemy combatants, is to capture them, then immediately strap them to a waterboard, where they are punished for being terrorists. Let's be clear on a few things... it's a technique that has been used on exactly THREE people we've captured... of all the THOUSANDS.... only THREE got the waterboard treatment. It was believed they held information vital to the security of America and American citizens. It did in fact, lead to information which thwarted at least two terror attacks, one in LA and one in the UK. It is a technique used to train our own Special Forces.

This high horse argument that "we are better than that" is foolish, because we certainly AREN'T better than that. If someone had kidnapped your wife and children, and were holding them captive somewhere, and you somehow managed to capture one of the kidnappers, and were holding him in your basement... tell me you wouldn't use waterboarding to try and find out where your loved ones were being held? Is there anyone here who is "better than that?" I'm not! I would do everything short of killing the son of a bitch, to find my loved ones, and I believe most of you would do the same as well. So this argument that "we are better than that" is just plain unfounded and stupid. We're certainly NOT "better than that!"
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Two things you need to pay attention to, Dixie. First of all, we are not saying it was done hundreds of times, thousands of times, or even dozens of times. In fact, I haven't seen anyone mention how many times it was done except for those defending it. The topic came up because of the internet badasses bragging that bin Laden's execution was due to waterboarding. In that event, like the 2 thwarted attacks, waterboarding provided a piece of the puzzle. It was not the only piece, and perhaps not even the best piece. To claim that bin Laden would not have been found and the two terrorist attacks would not have been stopped without waterboarding is ridiculous. You simply cannot know that.

Next, when you refer to the "we are better than that", perhaps it would have been nice if you had read those posts more carefully. If you had you would have noticed the phrase "When we, was a nation..." We as a nation react differently from the way you and I would react personally. If my wife were murdered by some guy from Montgomery AL, I would want to torture him and kill him with my bare hands. But we, as a nation, do not allow that. Because we, as a nation are better than that.

In another thread you ranted on and on about not abandoning principles. Is that just in elections?
 
Waterboarding supplied the first piece of the puzzle. Without it no one can say that we would have found bin Laden.
 
Damn Yankee said:
What?
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i'll try to do this slowly, so you can follow. You're saying that it's illegal to waterboard uniformed soldiers, but it's legal to waterboard terrorists because they are not uniformed soldiers. You're creating a higher class of people based on a chosen profession. It's exactly like creating extra rights for police officers simply because they are police officers.

can you follow that now?
 
SmarterThanYou said:
i'll try to do this slowly, so you can follow. You're saying that it's illegal to waterboard uniformed soldiers, but it's legal to waterboard terrorists because they are not uniformed soldiers. You're creating a higher class of people based on a chosen profession. It's exactly like creating extra rights for police officers simply because they are police officers.

can you follow that now?
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Its called situational morality. It can be used to justify all sorts of horrors.
 
It's a stupid argument... it's like saying Green Bay may have won the Super Bowl without Aaron Rogers! Well, yeah... maybe so... but they didn't! They won the Super Bowl WITH Aaron Rogers, and he was the MVP! Now, maybe he didn't deserve to be the MVP, maybe the entire game was determined by the strength of the offensive line? This is all speculation and conjecture after the fact, but the fact remains, Green Bay DID win the Super Bowl, WITH Aaron Rogers at QB, and he won the MVP. Those are the FACTS!
 
WinterBorn said:
That is guessing, at best. We have known they used couriers since before 9/11.
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No we didn't. We had no idea of how OBL communicated with his generals in the field, or how alQaeda communicated with each other. It was through the waterboarding of KSM that we discovered OBL used couriers, and it was also through waterboarding we learned the name of the courier who ultimately led to OBL.
 
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