Stereotyping the Old South

Because it is our people's history, dumbfuck. I bet even your fucked up family has history!

I don't really study my family's history back more than three generations, and even after two, its very little and scant at that. Secondly, while its "your people's history," I imagine that there are other histories that people don't celebrate, such as the German people's history of Nazism. Should they be proud of that little episode?
 
I don't really study my family's history back more than three generations, and even after two, its very little and scant at that. Secondly, while its "your people's history," I imagine that there are other histories that people don't celebrate, such as the German people's history of Nazism. Should they be proud of that little episode?

Well someone with no real history doesn't comprehend the importance of it to others, so that explains a lot. I don't know what Germans celebrate, but since you introduced the comparative example of Naziism, it is important to make a few distinctions here... The word Nazi, and in fact, the Nazi movement in Germany, means National Socialism.... precisely the same governmental system liberals want to implement in America today! Because Hitler was a madman who perverted Naziism into something it never was intended to be, the word takes on a different significance and is understood differently. Now, this happened to Naziism as it was being practiced by Hitler and the Germans, unlike the stigma you wish to attach to the Confederacy and the act of human enslavement. Sorry, but the comparison fails, Hitler destroyed the reputation of Naziism, but National Socialism remains alive to this day. Bigots and historical revisionists destroyed the reputation of the Confederacy, after the war was over, and the Confederacy suffers this prejudice and misunderstanding to this day.
 
Regardless of the fact that Nazism was perverted, it is still a moment in German history which occurred, and in which people aren't to fond of celebrating today. Hell, in the US we have neonazis who fly the swastika, read Mein Kampf, and preach racial ideology to this day! As for the Confederacy, it was a disgrace before it even came to fruition, as it embraced some very backward models of economy and government as its credo. The fact that it defended slavery as a way of life, and was defeated in a war is just extra imagery for why it should be denounced rather than celebrated.
 
Regardless of the fact that Nazism was perverted, it is still a moment in German history which occurred, and in which people aren't to fond of celebrating today. Hell, in the US we have neonazis who fly the swastika, read Mein Kampf, and preach racial ideology to this day! As for the Confederacy, it was a disgrace before it even came to fruition, as it embraced some very backward models of economy and government as its credo. The fact that it defended slavery as a way of life, and was defeated in a war is just extra imagery for why it should be denounced rather than celebrated.

The examples of incinerating Jews and enslaving black people are not comparable, no one else on the planet was incinerating Jews, or thought that incinerating Jews was acceptable or rational. Toasting Jewish citizens was not the "law of the land" in Germany, upheld for a century before the Nazi was formed and upheld by the German courts... that was the case with slavery. The CSA didn't adopt the abhorrent practice of slavery AFTER the Civil War started, it existed for nearly a century in America before the CSA. It was the law of the land.

What Southerners defended in the civil war, was their property and property rights. The issue of enslaving black people was a completely separate matter. There were a great many people from the South, who did not think black people should be enslaved. It was probably a stronger and more heartfelt empathy in the South, where black slavery was prevalent, than up North, where many people had never seen a black person. The problems related to business, property, and what the Constitution says, or what the courts had thus far ruled the Constitution said... We can't change this history just because we need to blame The South for slavery and racism. That is intellectually dishonest, and I will argue against it until the day I die, and teach my children and grandchildren to do the same.
 
Virginia is For Liars: Neo-Confederate Mythology, Racist Realities and Genuine Southern Heroes

By Tim Wise
April 13, 2010



That the only "state's rights" being fought for were the rights of said states to operate a slave system was attested to by southern leaders themselves. In December of 1860, Alabama sent commissioners to the other slave states to advocate for their secession. One of the commissioners was Stephen Hale, whose job was to persuade Kentucky to leave the Union. In his letter to the Governor of Kentucky, he asked and answered the question as to which "state's rights" were being violated by the North.

"…what rights have been denied, what wrongs have been done, or threatened to be done, of which the Southern states, or the people of the Southern states, can complain?" he asked. In the very next paragraph he offered the answer, clearly and unmistakably:

".... African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern states and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community…They attack us through their literature, in their schools, from the hustings, in their legislative halls, through the public press…to strike down the rights of the Southern "

http://www.facebook.com/notes/tim-w...t-realities-and-genuine-sou/10150148025495459
 
Virginia is For Liars: Neo-Confederate Mythology, Racist Realities and Genuine Southern Heroes

By Tim Wise
April 13, 2010



That the only "state's rights" being fought for were the rights of said states to operate a slave system was attested to by southern leaders themselves. In December of 1860, Alabama sent commissioners to the other slave states to advocate for their secession. One of the commissioners was Stephen Hale, whose job was to persuade Kentucky to leave the Union. In his letter to the Governor of Kentucky, he asked and answered the question as to which "state's rights" were being violated by the North.

"…what rights have been denied, what wrongs have been done, or threatened to be done, of which the Southern states, or the people of the Southern states, can complain?" he asked. In the very next paragraph he offered the answer, clearly and unmistakably:

".... African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern states and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community…They attack us through their literature, in their schools, from the hustings, in their legislative halls, through the public press…to strike down the rights of the Southern "

http://www.facebook.com/notes/tim-w...t-realities-and-genuine-sou/10150148025495459

So the fact that people who owned a billion dollars worth of property (as so deemed by the court), wanted to keep their property.... this means what again???? Remember, in context.... slaves were property... the CSA didn't declare them property, Southerners didn't proclaim them property... that was done by the United States and the SCOTUS, and the CSA had nothing to do with the decision. It's sad, I hate it, but that is a fact we can either accept or ignore here. You've chosen to ignore it. I guess it makes you feel good as a black man, to blame all white racism on people indigenous to the Southern United States, but I can't imagine why.

Let's try an analogy, maybe you can comprehend that? Let's compare slavery to abortion... Now, today in America, it is perfectly legal to get an abortion, even up until the fetus is partially born. Let's say 50 years, 100 years, 150 years down the road, we outlaw the practice of abortion and recognize the fetus as a human being with Constitutional rights. This would be the equivalent to establishing the 13th and 14th Amendment for blacks and freeing the slaves. Now, let's say we are having a conversation in the future, after we've lived in a world where the abhorrent practice of abortion is a distant part of our past that no one is even alive to remember how it was in 2011... And you try to make the argument that people in America who were fighting for "women's rights" ...the right to abort an unborn fetus... were reprehensible and heinous monsters who wanted to murder human beings? And what if I said, no they weren't, they simply had a different perspective of things in 2011, and it wasn't considered abhorrent and reprehensible in that time? It's the same argument we are having now about slavery.

Pointing out what the sentiments were regarding slavery (or abortion), is not supportive of that viewpoint, it is acknowledging that was the viewpoint of the time, and being honest about how people viewed the issue during that time. It doesn't excuse the behavior, it doesn't justify it, it doesn't say it was okay or acceptable, it's just how things were.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Virginia is For Liars: Neo-Confederate Mythology, Racist Realities and Genuine Southern Heroes

By Tim Wise
April 13, 2010



That the only "state's rights" being fought for were the rights of said states to operate a slave system was attested to by southern leaders themselves. In December of 1860, Alabama sent commissioners to the other slave states to advocate for their secession. One of the commissioners was Stephen Hale, whose job was to persuade Kentucky to leave the Union. In his letter to the Governor of Kentucky, he asked and answered the question as to which "state's rights" were being violated by the North.

"…what rights have been denied, what wrongs have been done, or threatened to be done, of which the Southern states, or the people of the Southern states, can complain?" he asked. In the very next paragraph he offered the answer, clearly and unmistakably:

".... African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern states and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community…They attack us through their literature, in their schools, from the hustings, in their legislative halls, through the public press…to strike down the rights of the Southern "

http://www.facebook.com/notes/tim-wi...50148025495459


So the fact that people who owned a billion dollars worth of property (as so deemed by the court), wanted to keep their property.... this means what again???? Remember, in context.... slaves were property... the CSA didn't declare them property, Southerners didn't proclaim them property... that was done by the United States and the SCOTUS, and the CSA had nothing to do with the decision. It's sad, I hate it, but that is a fact we can either accept or ignore here. You've chosen to ignore it. I guess it makes you feel good as a black man, to blame all white racism on people indigenous to the Southern United States, but I can't imagine why.

Let's try an analogy, maybe you can comprehend that? Let's compare slavery to abortion... Now, today in America, it is perfectly legal to get an abortion, even up until the fetus is partially born. Let's say 50 years, 100 years, 150 years down the road, we outlaw the practice of abortion and recognize the fetus as a human being with Constitutional rights. This would be the equivalent to establishing the 13th and 14th Amendment for blacks and freeing the slaves. Now, let's say we are having a conversation in the future, after we've lived in a world where the abhorrent practice of abortion is a distant part of our past that no one is even alive to remember how it was in 2011... And you try to make the argument that people in America who were fighting for "women's rights" ...the right to abort an unborn fetus... were reprehensible and heinous monsters who wanted to murder human beings? And what if I said, no they weren't, they simply had a different perspective of things in 2011, and it wasn't considered abhorrent and reprehensible in that time? It's the same argument we are having now about slavery.

Pointing out what the sentiments were regarding slavery (or abortion), is not supportive of that viewpoint, it is acknowledging that was the viewpoint of the time, and being honest about how people viewed the issue during that time. It doesn't excuse the behavior, it doesn't justify it, it doesn't say it was okay or acceptable, it's just how things were.

And once again, folks, the Dixie Dunce proves my (and Wise's) point with his opening sentences: " ...... So the fact that people who owned a billion dollars worth of property (as so deemed by the court), wanted to keep their property.... this means what again???? Remember, in context.... slaves were property... the CSA didn't declare them property, Southerners didn't proclaim them property... that was done by the United States and the SCOTUS, and the CSA had nothing to do with the decision."

While totally ignoring the FACT that you have a documented quote from Stephen Hale giving a pivotal reason for others to join the secession, ".....African slavery has not only become one of the fixed domestic institutions of the Southern states, but forms an important element of their political power, and constitutes the most valuable species of their property…forming, in fact, the basis upon which rests the prosperity and wealth of most of these states…It is upon this gigantic interest, this peculiar institution of the South, that the Northern states and their people have been waging an unrelenting and fanatical war for the last quarter of a century. An institution with which is bound up, not only the wealth and prosperity of the Southern people, but their very existence as a political community…They attack us through their literature, in their schools, from the hustings, in their legislative halls, through the public press…to strike down the rights of the Southern"

As Wise pointed out, jokers like our Dixie Dunce ALWAYS want to side step the historical fact that as the consensus in the USA was growing to END slavery, the Southern States that would make up the Confederacy knew that it would mean an end to their economic power....FORGET THE FACT THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS FINALLY SEEING THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL TOWARDS THEIR FREEDOM. Then in true delusional fashion of the Confederate historical revisionist, our Dixie Dunce creates silly scenarios to fit his delusion of a non-racist Confederacy and blame it all on EVERYONE else.

:palm: Wise has Dixie's number, as I have had from the first time I crossed paths with his justification/apologist/excuse laiden BS for the Confederacy. The "that's just how things were" is the cry of the pseudo-intellectual clap trap used to try and wash the blatant stink of racism from the Confederacy.....and the more they spew that crap, the deeper the hole they dig in their Confederate graves....which I spit upon. Now let's watch Dixie continue to dance...sputter and fuming his Dixie dumb racist defending bilge. I told you folks, dumb ass bigots and racists like Dixie just can't stand being exposed logically and factually....so they just have to have the last word, no matter how many times and ways they repeat their long disproven Confederate loving bilge. Carry on! ;)
 
The examples of incinerating Jews and enslaving black people are not comparable, no one else on the planet was incinerating Jews, or thought that incinerating Jews was acceptable or rational. Toasting Jewish citizens was not the "law of the land" in Germany, upheld for a century before the Nazi was formed and upheld by the German courts... that was the case with slavery. The CSA didn't adopt the abhorrent practice of slavery AFTER the Civil War started, it existed for nearly a century in America before the CSA. It was the law of the land.

What Southerners defended in the civil war, was their property and property rights. The issue of enslaving black people was a completely separate matter. There were a great many people from the South, who did not think black people should be enslaved. It was probably a stronger and more heartfelt empathy in the South, where black slavery was prevalent, than up North, where many people had never seen a black person. The problems related to business, property, and what the Constitution says, or what the courts had thus far ruled the Constitution said... We can't change this history just because we need to blame The South for slavery and racism. That is intellectually dishonest, and I will argue against it until the day I die, and teach my children and grandchildren to do the same.

Yes, they are 100% comparable. There is very little difference between them, in fact. This is especially true in a country in which life and liberty are considered co-equal and inseperable. You're probably just mad that a bunch of Germans thought of doing it instead of the old Confederacy.
 
Yes, they are 100% comparable. There is very little difference between them, in fact. This is especially true in a country in which life and liberty are considered co-equal and inseperable. You're probably just mad that a bunch of Germans thought of doing it instead of the old Confederacy.

No, they are not comparable, and I took the time to explain in great detail, exactly why they aren't. It's disrespectful as hell to just completely IGNORE a post, and continue to try and make a point that was just refuted. There is a humongous difference between the two, go read what I posted again. (assuming you read it the first time) Life and Liberty are indeed considered co-equal and inseparable, unfortunately, in 1861 America, black slaves were not considered people, and they didn't have a Constitutional right to life or liberty. They were owned property! Deemed such by the UNITED STATES Supreme Court, not the CSA! That's the detail which seems to be escaping you and others here, you fail to comprehend, black people were not considered equal to white people, there were some who didn't even consider them the same SPECIES as white people. Now, you can get up on your soap box and lament all of this righteous bullshit you want about freedom and liberty and the indignation of slavery, but until you accept the facts regarding the prevailing thoughts of that time, you are going to continue to fail to understand it and remain ignorant.


Even good old Abe Lincoln, said "the negro will never hold equal station in society with whites." ...That is pretty clearly a "white supremacist" viewpoint, and it is indicative of how MOST Americans felt about black slaves in 1861. I'm sorry you need a scapegoat for your own racist prejudice, but we can't turn 1861 into 1964, and pretend Abe Lincoln was a Civil Rights leader like MLK. It's intellectually dishonest, and patently unfair to the Confederacy. You want to get pissed off at Bull Connor for hosing down black protesters in the 60s? FINE! I'm with you on that! It was despicable and deplorable, and something I am ashamed of for the South. You want to condemn AMERICA for the institution of slavery? FINE! I am with you on that too! It was terrible and awful that we did that.... but we're NOT going to cast all blame for this on The South, or people from the South. --SORRY!
 
Yes, they are 100% comparable. Slaves were imprisoned and worked to death. And there are plenty of antisemites, such as our very own Asshate, who don't condone the Holocaust. The Confederacy would also require a just cause to deserve fairness (i.e. softballs) from my corner.
 
Yes, they are 100% comparable. Slaves were imprisoned and worked to death. And there are plenty of antisemites, such as our very own Asshate, who don't condone the Holocaust. The Confederacy would also require a just cause to deserve fairness (i.e. softballs) from my corner.


Let's go over this again really sloooooowly....

1. Owning slaves, unlike incarcerating Jews, was the law of the land, perfectly legal and legitimate in the United States.
2. Owning slaves had been a legal and acceptable practice for almost a century before the CSA, not the case with torching Jews and the Nazis.
3. US Courts upheld the institution of slavery, no one ever upheld the practice of incinerating Jews.
4. Slave owners very seldom ever killed their slaves, Nazi's very often killed Jews.
5. Slaves were not held in prison camps and emaciated to death from lack of food... (unless you count the ones who died in custody of the Union Army, post-Civil War.)

So we can see, there is a stark contrast between the two, they are not comparable. What the Nazis did to the Jews was out of hatred and bigotry for the Jewish race, and it was done to eradicate the Jewish people...ethnic cleansing. Slavery was a widely accepted practice used to provide agricultural labor, it had nothing to do with inherent hate for black people, nor was it done to eradicate the black race.
 
SM - Yes, I am. Hell they both even held racial ideology about society.

Dixie - Laws against Jews were also the law of the land, and had been enacted all throughout the 30s. The actual move toward concentration camps and death camps didn't occur until after WWII had finally broken out.
 
One hundred and fifty years after the Civil War began, we're still fighting it -- or at least fighting over its history. I've polled thousands of high school history teachers and spoken about the war to audiences across the country, and there is little agreement even on why the South seceded. Was it over slavery? States' rights? Tariffs and taxes?

As the nation begins to commemorate the anniversaries of the war's various battles -- from Fort Sumter to Appomattox -- let's first dispense with some of the more prevalent myths about why it all began.


1. The South seceded over states' rights.


Confederate states did claim the right to secede, but no state claimed to be seceding for that right. In fact, Confederates opposed states' rights -- that is, the right of Northern states not to support slavery.

On Dec. 24, 1860, delegates at South Carolina's secession convention adopted a "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." It noted "an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery" and protested that Northern states had failed to "fulfill their constitutional obligations" by interfering with the return of fugitive slaves to bondage. Slavery, not states' rights, birthed the Civil War.

South Carolina was further upset that New York no longer allowed "slavery transit." In the past, if Charleston gentry wanted to spend August in the Hamptons, they could bring their cook along. No longer -- and South Carolina's delegates were outraged. In addition, they objected that New England states let black men vote and tolerated abolitionist societies. According to South Carolina, states should not have the right to let their citizens assemble and speak freely when what they said threatened slavery.

Other seceding states echoed South Carolina. "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world," proclaimed Mississippi in its own secession declaration, passed Jan. 9, 1861. "Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. . . . A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

The South's opposition to states' rights is not surprising. Until the Civil War, Southern presidents and lawmakers had dominated the federal government. The people in power in Washington always oppose states' rights. Doing so preserves their own.

2. Secession was about tariffs and taxes.


During the nadir of post-civil-war race relations - the terrible years after 1890 when town after town across the North became all-white "sundown towns" and state after state across the South prevented African Americans from voting - "anything but slavery" explanations of the Civil War gained traction. To this day Confederate sympathizers successfully float this false claim, along with their preferred name for the conflict: the War Between the States. At the infamous Secession Ball in South Carolina, hosted in December by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, "the main reasons for secession were portrayed as high tariffs and Northern states using Southern tax money to build their own infrastructure," The Washington Post reported.

These explanations are flatly wrong. High tariffs had prompted the Nullification Crisis in 1831-33, when, after South Carolina demanded the right to nullify federal laws or secede in protest, President Andrew Jackson threatened force. No state joined the movement, and South Carolina backed down. Tariffs were not an issue in 1860, and Southern states said nothing about them. Why would they? Southerners had written the tariff of 1857, under which the nation was functioning. Its rates were lower than at any point since 1816.


3. Most white Southerners didn't own slaves, so they wouldn't secede for slavery.


Indeed, most white Southern families had no slaves. Less than half of white Mississippi households owned one or more slaves, for example, and that proportion was smaller still in whiter states such as Virginia and Tennessee. It is also true that, in areas with few slaves, most white Southerners did not support secession. West Virginia seceded from Virginia to stay with the Union, and Confederate troops had to occupy parts of eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama to hold them in line.

However, two ideological factors caused most Southern whites, including those who were not slave-owners, to defend slavery. First, Americans are wondrous optimists, looking to the upper class and expecting to join it someday. In 1860, many subsistence farmers aspired to become large slave-owners. So poor white Southerners supported slavery then, just as many low-income people support the extension of George W. Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy now.

Second and more important, belief in white supremacy provided a rationale for slavery. As the French political theorist Montesquieu observed wryly in 1748: "It is impossible for us to suppose these creatures [enslaved Africans] to be men; because allowing them to be men, a suspicion would follow that we ourselves are not Christians."

Given this belief, most white Southerners -- and many Northerners, too -- could not envision life in black-majority states such as South Carolina and Mississippi unless blacks were in chains.

Georgia Supreme Court Justice Henry Benning, trying to persuade the Virginia Legislature to leave the Union, predicted race war if slavery was not protected. "The consequence will be that our men will be all exterminated or expelled to wander as vagabonds over a hostile earth, and as for our women, their fate will be too horrible to contemplate even in fancy."

Thus, secession would maintain not only slavery but the prevailing ideology of white supremacy as well.


4. Abraham Lincoln went to war to end slavery.



Since the Civil War did end slavery, many Americans think abolition was the Union's goal. But the North initially went to war to hold the nation together. Abolition came later.

On Aug. 22, 1862, President Lincoln wrote a letter to the New York Tribune that included the following passage: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."

However, Lincoln's own anti-slavery sentiment was widely known at the time. In the same letter, he went on: "I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free." A month later, Lincoln combined official duty and private wish in his preliminary Emancipation Proclamation.

White Northerners' fear of freed slaves moving north then caused Republicans to lose the Midwest in the congressional elections of November 1862.

Gradually, as Union soldiers found help from black civilians in the South and black recruits impressed white units with their bravery, many soldiers -- and those they wrote home to -- became abolitionists. By 1864, when Maryland voted to end slavery, soldiers' and sailors' votes made the difference.


5. The South couldn't have made it long as a slave society.



Slavery was hardly on its last legs in 1860. That year, the South produced almost 75 percent of all U.S. exports.

Slaves were worth more than all the manufacturing companies and railroads in the nation. No elite class in history has ever given up such an immense interest voluntarily. Moreover, Confederates eyed territorial expansion into Mexico and Cuba. Short of war, who would have stopped them - or forced them to abandon slavery?

To claim that slavery would have ended of its own accord by the mid-20th century is impossible to disprove but difficult to accept. In 1860, slavery was growing more entrenched in the South.

Unpaid labor makes for big profits, and the Southern elite was growing ever richer. Freeing slaves was becoming more and more difficult for their owners, as was the position of free blacks in the United States, North as well as South. For the foreseeable future, slavery looked secure. Perhaps a civil war was required to end it.

As we commemorate the sesquicentennial of that war, let us take pride this time - as we did not during the centennial - that secession on slavery's behalf failed.

Sociologist James W. Loewen is the author of "Lies My Teacher Told Me" and co-editor, with Edward Sebesta, of "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2659799/posts
 
SM - Yes, I am. Hell they both even held racial ideology about society.

No they didn't. Southerners did not feel the world would be more perfect without black people. In fact, just the opposite is true. There was no prejudice against black people in the South in 1860 that wasn't also in the North in 1860. To pretend that is how it was, is laughably foolish and demonstrably incorrect. The South advocated slavery, not because they didn't think blacks should have equal rights to whites, but because they were the source of labor which drove Southern economies. The North didn't oppose slavery because they thought blacks should be equal to whites, they opposed it for much the same reason we currently oppose dog fighting. Now, those who think it is inhumane to fight dogs, do not automatically feel that dogs should be treated equally to people, do they? It's two entirely different arguments, isn't it? There were people in BOTH THE NORTH AND SOUTH who favored abolition of human slavery. The bone of contention was over compensation for property rightly purchased and owned by the slave owners. Many slave owners freed their slaves voluntarily, and many slaves remained on the plantations as hired hands, long after slavery was abolished.

Dixie - Laws against Jews were also the law of the land, and had been enacted all throughout the 30s. The actual move toward concentration camps and death camps didn't occur until after WWII had finally broken out.

What the fuck do you mean "laws against Jews"? Was there a law against being a Jew? You mean laws which DISCRIMINATED against Jews? Well, we had laws that discriminated against blacks, LONG before the Confederacy or Civil War... we also discriminated against WOMEN for decades AFTER the Civil War. It wasn't until 1964, that we did away with systemic discrimination against black people... the CSA didn't have a fucking thing to do with that!

The extermination of the Jews is what made the Nazis so infamous. That was the comparative analogy you presented, and it's nice to see you've walked that back, but you can't cling to the point you made now, you just destroyed your own argument. There is NO COMPARISON between what the Nazis did to Jews (i.e.; the Holocaust) and the CSA with regard to slavery. There is nothing even remotely similar to the two, and to make such a comparison, shows a profound ignorance of historical perspective. I would be ashamed if I were you, being you supposedly have all this knowledge of history. But I realize, it is because you are a closet racist and a bigot, and you routinely have to slap around the South and the CSA to ease your guilt over your own racist beliefs. It makes you feel better for the moment, to help you justify the racist thoughts and beliefs you are hopelessly tied to, but it doesn't take away the guilt, you have to live with that.
 
One hundred and fifty years after the Civil War began, we're still fighting it -- or at least fighting over its history. I've polled thousands of high school history teachers and spoken about the war to audiences across the country, and there is little agreement even on why the South seceded. Was it over slavery? States' rights? Tariffs and taxes?

As the nation begins to commemorate the anniversaries of the war's various battles -- from Fort Sumter to Appomattox -- let's first dispense with some of the more prevalent myths about why it all began.


1. The South seceded over states' rights.


Confederate states did claim the right to secede, but no state claimed to be seceding for that right. In fact, Confederates opposed states' rights -- that is, the right of Northern states not to support slavery.

On Dec. 24, 1860, delegates at South Carolina's secession convention adopted a "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." It noted "an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery" and protested that Northern states had failed to "fulfill their constitutional obligations" by interfering with the return of fugitive slaves to bondage. Slavery, not states' rights, birthed the Civil War.

South Carolina was further upset that New York no longer allowed "slavery transit." In the past, if Charleston gentry wanted to spend August in the Hamptons, they could bring their cook along. No longer -- and South Carolina's delegates were outraged. In addition, they objected that New England states let black men vote and tolerated abolitionist societies. According to South Carolina, states should not have the right to let their citizens assemble and speak freely when what they said threatened slavery.

Other seceding states echoed South Carolina. "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world," proclaimed Mississippi in its own secession declaration, passed Jan. 9, 1861. "Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. . . . A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

The South's opposition to states' rights is not surprising. Until the Civil War, Southern presidents and lawmakers had dominated the federal government. The people in power in Washington always oppose states' rights. Doing so preserves their own.

2. Secession was about tariffs and taxes.


During the nadir of post-civil-war race relations - the terrible years after 1890 when town after town across the North became all-white "sundown towns" and state after state across the South prevented African Americans from voting - "anything but slavery" explanations of the Civil War gained traction. To this day Confederate sympathizers successfully float this false claim, along with their preferred name for the conflict: the War Between the States. At the infamous Secession Ball in South Carolina, hosted in December by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, "the main reasons for secession were portrayed as high tariffs and Northern states using Southern tax money to build their own infrastructure," The Washington Post reported.

These explanations are flatly wrong. High tariffs had prompted the Nullification Crisis in 1831-33, when, after South Carolina demanded the right to nullify federal laws or secede in protest, President Andrew Jackson threatened force. No state joined the movement, and South Carolina backed down. Tariffs were not an issue in 1860, and Southern states said nothing about them. Why would they? Southerners had written the tariff of 1857, under which the nation was functioning. Its rates were lower than at any point since 1816.


3. Most white Southerners didn't own slaves, so they wouldn't secede for slavery.


Indeed, most white Southern families had no slaves. Less than half of white Mississippi households owned one or more slaves, for example, and that proportion was smaller still in whiter states such as Virginia and Tennessee. It is also true that, in areas with few slaves, most white Southerners did not support secession. West Virginia seceded from Virginia to stay with the Union, and Confederate troops had to occupy parts of eastern Tennessee and northern Alabama to hold them in line.

However, two ideological factors caused most Southern whites, including those who were not slave-owners, to defend slavery. First, Americans are wondrous optimists, looking to the upper class and expecting to join it someday. In 1860, many subsistence farmers aspired to become large slave-owners. So poor white Southerners supported slavery then, just as many low-income people support the extension of George W. Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy now.

Second and more important, belief in white supremacy provided a rationale for slavery. As the French political theorist Montesquieu observed wryly in 1748: "It is impossible for us to suppose these creatures [enslaved Africans] to be men; because allowing them to be men, a suspicion would follow that we ourselves are not Christians."

Given this belief, most white Southerners -- and many Northerners, too -- could not envision life in black-majority states such as South Carolina and Mississippi unless blacks were in chains.

Georgia Supreme Court Justice Henry Benning, trying to persuade the Virginia Legislature to leave the Union, predicted race war if slavery was not protected. "The consequence will be that our men will be all exterminated or expelled to wander as vagabonds over a hostile earth, and as for our women, their fate will be too horrible to contemplate even in fancy."

Thus, secession would maintain not only slavery but the prevailing ideology of white supremacy as well.


4. Abraham Lincoln went to war to end slavery.



Since the Civil War did end slavery, many Americans think abolition was the Union's goal. But the North initially went to war to hold the nation together. Abolition came later.

On Aug. 22, 1862, President Lincoln wrote a letter to the New York Tribune that included the following passage: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."

However, Lincoln's own anti-slavery sentiment was widely known at the time. In the same letter, he went on: "I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free." A month later, Lincoln combined official duty and private wish in his preliminary Emancipation Proclamation.

White Northerners' fear of freed slaves moving north then caused Republicans to lose the Midwest in the congressional elections of November 1862.

Gradually, as Union soldiers found help from black civilians in the South and black recruits impressed white units with their bravery, many soldiers -- and those they wrote home to -- became abolitionists. By 1864, when Maryland voted to end slavery, soldiers' and sailors' votes made the difference.


5. The South couldn't have made it long as a slave society.



Slavery was hardly on its last legs in 1860. That year, the South produced almost 75 percent of all U.S. exports.

Slaves were worth more than all the manufacturing companies and railroads in the nation. No elite class in history has ever given up such an immense interest voluntarily. Moreover, Confederates eyed territorial expansion into Mexico and Cuba. Short of war, who would have stopped them - or forced them to abandon slavery?

To claim that slavery would have ended of its own accord by the mid-20th century is impossible to disprove but difficult to accept. In 1860, slavery was growing more entrenched in the South.

Unpaid labor makes for big profits, and the Southern elite was growing ever richer. Freeing slaves was becoming more and more difficult for their owners, as was the position of free blacks in the United States, North as well as South. For the foreseeable future, slavery looked secure. Perhaps a civil war was required to end it.

As we commemorate the sesquicentennial of that war, let us take pride this time - as we did not during the centennial - that secession on slavery's behalf failed.

Sociologist James W. Loewen is the author of "Lies My Teacher Told Me" and co-editor, with Edward Sebesta, of "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2659799/posts

Epic Win,

Should we (The USA) do what the United Nations mandate on us?

Who has the final say?

USA, or the United Nations?
 
I have a Bachelorette in history. #4 is just my personal opinion, as most people will argue that secession is a violation of the constitution. It is true, however, that Lincoln won the Election of 1860, and his name didn't even appear on the Southern ballots. Yet, immediately after being elected (and yes, the South shot itself in the foot by running an alternative Democratic candidate to the one the national party selected), South Carolina seceded, and most of the rest of the South had joined it before Lincoln even took office and began "oppressing" them. Bunch of fucking neanderthals.

Youre next post will be 19,000.
 
Confederate states did claim the right to secede, but no state claimed to be seceding for that right. In fact, Confederates opposed states' rights -- that is, the right of Northern states not to support slavery.

Untrue. Southern states were opposed to new states being added to the Union as "free states" but they did not oppose the few other Northern states bans on slavery.

On Dec. 24, 1860, delegates at South Carolina's secession convention adopted a "Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union." It noted "an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery" and protested that Northern states had failed to "fulfill their constitutional obligations" by interfering with the return of fugitive slaves to bondage. Slavery, not states' rights, birthed the Civil War.

Slavery was a big issue, but it was not an issue because of human enslavement. It was an issue because of economics and what had been the upheld law of the land to that point.

Other seceding states echoed South Carolina. "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world," proclaimed Mississippi in its own secession declaration, passed Jan. 9, 1861. "Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of the commerce of the earth. . . . A blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

Clear evidence the issue was not about human indignity, it was about economics. Slaves provided the labor... ALL the labor, for ALL the cotton producers. Abolition threatened to do away with this system, which had been in place and upheld by the SCOTUS for nearly a century before the war. This was not a matter of Northerners believing slaves should be free to live in society alongside whites, and Southerners couldn't bear that thought... I know that's what you racists keep trying to convince yourself was the case, but it really wasn't. Very very FEW people in America, in 1860, felt black slaves should be treated equally to white people.... it just wasn't how it was. Aside from a few Quaker ministers, there really wasn't very many who advocated for racial equality in those days.


Americans are wondrous optimists, looking to the upper class and expecting to join it someday. In 1860, many subsistence farmers aspired to become large slave-owners.

There is just no basis for this presumption other than speculative bullshit. Many farmers aspired to one day be large COTTON FARMERS! Nothing more.


Second and more important, belief in white supremacy provided a rationale for slavery.

Really? Then why was the North not overrun with slaves? In 1860, most any white person in America felt that whites were superior to blacks, even Abraham Lincoln!

4. Abraham Lincoln went to war to end slavery.

Since the Civil War did end slavery, many Americans think abolition was the Union's goal. But the North initially went to war to hold the nation together. Abolition came later.

EXACTLY! More proof the war was NOT about slavery! For the South, it was about property rights... abolition threatened to take their property without any compensation... they had obeyed the law, did everything the courts told them they could legally do, made the monetary investment in labor to do business, and here comes the government threatening to take their property and not compensate them for it... and you think they didn't have any legitimate complaint about that?

However, Lincoln's own anti-slavery sentiment was widely known at the time.

Yep, even during the Lincoln-Douglass debates, when asked specifically about freeing the slaves, Lincoln said "the negro can never hold an equal station in society with whites." Or maybe you are talking about his plan to ship free slaves (and other blacks) to Central America, Haiti, and Africa? Lincoln himself was of the belief that blacks were inferior to whites as a race. This was very prevalent and very common in 1860, all across America.

White Northerners' fear of freed slaves moving north then caused Republicans to lose the Midwest in the congressional elections of November 1862.

Not only that, but the same fears lasted well into the mid 1900s, where white gangs would roam the streets of places like Madison Wisconsin, indiscriminately killing blacks who they feared would take their jobs. Hundreds, if not thousands of blacks were lynched by those 'equality-loving Northerners' who just wanted to end the abhorrent practice of slavery.

Slavery was hardly on its last legs in 1860. That year, the South produced almost 75 percent of all U.S. exports.

Slaves were worth more than all the manufacturing companies and railroads in the nation. No elite class in history has ever given up such an immense interest voluntarily. To claim that slavery would have ended of its own accord by the mid-20th century is impossible to disprove but difficult to accept. In 1860, slavery was growing more entrenched in the South.

The practice of importing slaves to the US had ended. With the invention of the cotton gin, it would merely have been a matter of time before slavery would have become obsolete. Keep in mind, feeding and caring for a slave was not cheap, and there were all kinds of associated problems with housing slaves and keeping them productive. Southern cotton producers were not going to simply keep slaves because they hated black people, as soon as a better alternative came along, they would have taken it.

Unpaid labor makes for big profits, and the Southern elite was growing ever richer. Freeing slaves was becoming more and more difficult for their owners, as was the position of free blacks in the United States, North as well as South. For the foreseeable future, slavery looked secure. Perhaps a civil war was required to end it.

The North benefited greatly from slave labor as well, who the hell do you think was paying the Southern elite for their crops? Even the export business was taxed and tariffed, so the US made good money from Southern cotton as well.
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Let's be clear, I am not here to excuse slavery, or justify it, or pretend the South was innocent. I can accept the South did their share of wrong, with regard to slavery. What I take exception with, is this attitude I see here from people of the North, who think their shit didn't stink in 1860, they were "above" all this, and it was the reprehensible Southerners who stubbornly refused to free the slaves, which caused the North to have to fight for them. It's just a warped and twisted view of history that is inaccurate as hell, and I can't just sit here and read this garbage and not say something. You are trying to make a scapegoat out of the South, as if the rest of the nation was not responsible for slavery, as if the government of the United States had not condoned and upheld the institution for nearly a hundred years before the war. Take responsibility! Stop trying to blame it all on the South! ALL of America is to blame for slavery, as well as racial discrimination against blacks, AND Indians, Italians, Mexicans, Irish, Women...
 
No they didn't. Southerners did not feel the world would be more perfect without black people. In fact, just the opposite is true. There was no prejudice against black people in the South in 1860 that wasn't also in the North in 1860. To pretend that is how it was, is laughably foolish and demonstrably incorrect. The South advocated slavery, not because they didn't think blacks should have equal rights to whites, but because they were the source of labor which drove Southern economies. The North didn't oppose slavery because they thought blacks should be equal to whites, they opposed it for much the same reason we currently oppose dog fighting. Now, those who think it is inhumane to fight dogs, do not automatically feel that dogs should be treated equally to people, do they? It's two entirely different arguments, isn't it? There were people in BOTH THE NORTH AND SOUTH who favored abolition of human slavery. The bone of contention was over compensation for property rightly purchased and owned by the slave owners. Many slave owners freed their slaves voluntarily, and many slaves remained on the plantations as hired hands, long after slavery was abolished.

Thanks, Dixie. Blacks = Dogs


What the fuck do you mean "laws against Jews"? Was there a law against being a Jew? You mean laws which DISCRIMINATED against Jews? Well, we had laws that discriminated against blacks, LONG before the Confederacy or Civil War... we also discriminated against WOMEN for decades AFTER the Civil War. It wasn't until 1964, that we did away with systemic discrimination against black people... the CSA didn't have a fucking thing to do with that!

The extermination of the Jews is what made the Nazis so infamous. That was the comparative analogy you presented, and it's nice to see you've walked that back, but you can't cling to the point you made now, you just destroyed your own argument. There is NO COMPARISON between what the Nazis did to Jews (i.e.; the Holocaust) and the CSA with regard to slavery. There is nothing even remotely similar to the two, and to make such a comparison, shows a profound ignorance of historical perspective. I would be ashamed if I were you, being you supposedly have all this knowledge of history. But I realize, it is because you are a closet racist and a bigot, and you routinely have to slap around the South and the CSA to ease your guilt over your own racist beliefs. It makes you feel better for the moment, to help you justify the racist thoughts and beliefs you are hopelessly tied to, but it doesn't take away the guilt, you have to live with that.

Deflection does not equate to a valid argument.
 
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