Lybia produces 3%....

Here, my Super Freak-ing Dunce....learn something from a farmer, who says it better than I:

Speculation is good when the speculator trades with someone in the real economy and therefore bears real economic risk. Speculation is bad when the market is dominated by speculators trading with each other and, as they become a tiny fraction of the contracts traded, contracts bearing real economic risk stop determining prices. Futures markets are successful only if the amount and nature of speculation is careful monitored to ensure that “enterprise [does not become] the bubble on a whirlpool of speculation” and “the capital development of the country [does not become] a by-product of the activities of a casino.”

The above is simply nonsense. Everyone who trades contracts is a part of the 'real economy'. They ALL bare economic risk. Like anything, speculation can be extreme... typically during periods of great uncertainty.... as I stated and you ignored. Trying to 'police' the speculation in terms of an attempt to determine how much speculation is 'too much' is simply moronic. It would be completely arbitrary and subjective.

Learn to read, you Super Freak-ing Dunce. She wasn't talking about "periods of great uncertainty", she's talking about people speculating on others speculation WITHOUT HAVING A DIRECT RELATION TO THE ACTUAL CONTRACT THAT BEARS RISKS. Obviously, you didn't read the link I earlier provided regarding talk about regulation....or you did and just ignored it in favor of your myopic viewpoint. Newsflash for ya, bunky...if there is a recognized business practice, it can be regulated...especially when the dollar amount is quite sizeable. If the SEC can be objective in all the other aspects of Wall St., than so it should be trusted to work out a formula for this.

I didn't ignore anything, you Super Freak-ing liar. I stated plainly that speculation falsely pushes up prices, then lowers itself slightly while in the end leaving the gas pump price a little higher than before. The only real up side is for the oil companies...the consumer is just getting screwed a LITTLE less.

Yes you did ignore it and you just did the exact same thing above. Pretending that speculation 'lowered it slightly'.... is completely FALSE.

Tell us moron.... do you honestly want to continue pretending that a drop from $148/brl to $37/brl is a 'slight drop'???????

:palm: And what was the price drop at the gas pump, my Super Freak-ing BS artist? What was it before the barrel price was $148, during and after the drop to $37 a barrel (don't forget the time frame). You like to throw around numbers, how about some specifics? Shouldn't be too hard if you're really doing some honest research. YOU made the statements, the burden of proof is on you, bunky. Put up or shut up.


So the greed and avarice of Wall St. and international Banks caused a meltdown that lowered prices, and Super Freak-ing dopes like YOU say that's a good thing? WTF is the matter with you? Had the financial collapse on the Shrub's watch NOT happened, we'd be more or less just as screwed as we are now...or have you not seen the papers regarding gas prices and the job market? Uncontrolled speculation is STILL screwing us over, but Super Freak-ing toadies like you just bend over and smile, because hey, the ideology is everything to POS like you.

ah... more moronic parroting from you....

In order for me to "parrot" something, my Super Freak-ing Dunce, you have to produce the source that shows such in no uncertain terms....let's see if you can.

1) While Wall St certainly played a huge role in the economic meltdown... they would not have had the opportunity if the idiots in DC had not repealed Glass Steagall. I have repeatedly stated that Glass Steagall needs to be reimplemented and the big banks thus broken back up. But I know, the facts don't matter to you. They get in the way of your moronic chanting.

And yet you STILL have not produced anything that disproves my previous response. Stating a moot point does NOT absolve you of your idiotic assertions regarding speculation and Wall St. Only a Super Freak-ing idiot would try to excuse uncontrolled and excessive speculation by pointing to other failed and criminal Wall St. acts.

2) What 'uncontrolled' speculation? Speculation is what drives the market. It always has, it always will. The greater the uncertainty in the future, the greater the speculation is another fact that has remained constant. If you want to 'control' speculation to 'acceptable levels' or whatever you are trying to project, then you eliminate as much of the uncertainty as possible.


You're repeating yourself, you Super Freak-ing Dunce...and your assertions have been addressed and deconstructed. Bottom line, you can't just bring back Glass-Steagall but ignore the burgeoning problem of out-of-control speculation. No one is saying eliminate speculation, just make sure that it's grounded in the real world, and not some BS similar to the crap the mortagage banks did with mixing bad loans with good ones and then selling the packages to each other.
 
The fact that he tried to champion George Soros is quite possibly the funniest thing since Ditzie tried defending his 1/3 nonsense again.

Where did I champion Soros, you Super Freak-ing liar? Obviously, I have to dumb everything down for you....I used the Soros because neocon toadies just love to blame him for everything under sun, along with Media Matters.

Evidently folks, our Super Freak-ing Dunce is a little slow in the reading comprehension department....either that or he purposely likes to exaggerate (or lie) about what others write.
 
yes.... which is why we should ...

1) Infrastructure build out... start by mandate... 3 year window for gas stations to add a nat gas pump.

2) three year window for automakers to get production lines up and running for nat gas vehicles

3) encourage individuals to invest in conversion kits for current vehicles.

at the same time we should....

1) drill our own nat gas sites

2) invest in alt energy research and development HERE in the US.

3) resume off shore drilling and open ANWAR

Enough of the reliance upon foreign energy, we all bitch about our dependency only to see our government fail time and again to act.

We should start drilling any and everywhere we can!

Screw the rest of the world, and take care of ourselves.
 
Originally Posted by Superfreak
yes.... which is why we should ...

1) Infrastructure build out... start by mandate... 3 year window for gas stations to add a nat gas pump.

2) three year window for automakers to get production lines up and running for nat gas vehicles

3) encourage individuals to invest in conversion kits for current vehicles.

at the same time we should....

1) drill our own nat gas sites

2) invest in alt energy research and development HERE in the US.

3) resume off shore drilling and open ANWAR

Enough of the reliance upon foreign energy, we all bitch about our dependency only to see our government fail time and again to act.


We should start drilling any and everywhere we can!

Screw the rest of the world, and take care of ourselves.

How about making oil companies like Exxon pay full taxes first? Then take that money an put it to good use, like:
-- invest in alt energy research and development HERE in the US.

---- Infrastructure build out... start by mandate... 3 year window for gas stations to add a nat gas pump.

---- three year window for automakers to get production lines up and running for nat gas vehicles

--- encourage individuals to invest in conversion kits for current vehicles.
 
ghaddafitroll-1.jpg

http://www.fark.com/comments/601256...-to-go-there-for-your-safety?startid=67410284
 
We should start drilling any and everywhere we can!

Screw the rest of the world, and take care of ourselves.

That's fine as long as you like the idea of being screwed in return. And the way things are going the rest of the world just ain't gonna walk you home!
 
Amazing how you occasionally forget your meds and start babbling as if you actually know something. I notice you can't fault what I stated. Sorry if some honest critical thinking disturbs your world view, but no one said life was easy. Carry on.

Your limosine liberal rant with no basis in reality was a great example of a talking point by some liberal arts grad that can barely spell economics. It was hillarious. Now go step over a homeless person to spit on someone wearing fur.:awesome:
 
Moron.... the entire stock market, bond market, commodities market are ALL based on speculation. The buyer is speculating the particular security will continue up. The seller is speculating that it will not.

I wonder why it is that so many people bitch and moan when speculation is against their interest, but love speculation when it works in their favor. Imagine that. I bet you didn't bitch once in the late 90's when speculation (and manipulation) pushed oil prices below $10/brl..... right?

actually, I can't think of a single good reason to allow speculators in the commodities market.....a commodities market should be a place where users of a commodity meet providers of a commodity..... not an investor who, because he has lots of cash on hand, buys the commodity in hopes he can make the user, and ultimately the consumer, pay more dearly for it later.....
 
actually, I can't think of a single good reason to allow speculators in the commodities market.....a commodities market should be a place where users of a commodity meet providers of a commodity..... not an investor who, because he has lots of cash on hand, buys the commodity in hopes he can make the user, and ultimately the consumer, pay more dearly for it later.....

take 1 economics class please, the companies in the market are a great example of who needs to use it.
 
take 1 economics class please, the companies in the market are a great example of who needs to use it.

was there something too complex for you to understand in my post?.....I have no problem with companies that use it.....you and I both know, (perhaps you personally) that there are people in the commodities market who are not users.......
 
was there something too complex for you to understand in my post?.....I have no problem with companies that use it.....you and I both know, (perhaps you personally) that there are people in the commodities market who are not users.......

well maybe it's in econ 201 when you have a supplier trying to hedge against a loss in price, he needs a speculator to have the option transaction take place as most of the producers are trying to protect against a price collapse.
thanks for playing.
 
:palm: The Super Freak-ing Dunce strikes again!

Go back and read your own words, you Super Freak-ing buffoon....YOU said that corporations have nothing to do with oil prices.

WTF do you think Exxon Mobil, Royal Dutch Shell, BP, Chevron, and Conoco-Phillips are, bunky? And if it hasn't sunk in yet, take a gander at this, my Super Freak-ing Dunce http://ir.exxonmobil.com/phoenix.zhtml?p=irol-eventDetails&c=115024&eventID=3646666

Soros DOES NOT sit on the board of any of the forementioned corporations, does he bunky? I never said that Soros DIDN'T make his money off of a system that is broken, did I? Remember, my initial statement was that speculation should be better regulated, NOT eliminated. If YOU weren't such a Super Freak-ing neocon tool hell bent on "gett'in the libbies", you'd have noted that.

And if you can prove that Media Matters is funded by the above oil corporations, please provide it. Carry on, bunky.

Who gives a shit about Soros being on a board of directors? That has NOTHING to do with your absurd comments.

You said 'who controls oil prices besides OPEC' and then proclaimed 'it aint Soros or media matters'.

I then laughed and mocked you given Soros made his billions on speculation on oil and currency prices.

He has almost a billion invested in PetroBrasil right now.... you know... that company that just happened to greatly benefit when Obama shut down oil production in the Gulf?

As for the corporations.... again... they do not control oil prices. Period. Oil prices are set based on two things.

1) Supply/Demand equation
2) Expectations of future supply/demand equation (this is where speculators like Soros move the market)

Exxon, COP, BP, etc.... do not set the price.
 
And what was the price drop at the gas pump, my Super Freak-ing BS artist? What was it before the barrel price was $148, during and after the drop to $37 a barrel (don't forget the time frame). You like to throw around numbers, how about some specifics? Shouldn't be too hard if you're really doing some honest research. YOU made the statements, the burden of proof is on you, bunky. Put up or shut up.

You truly are a fucking idiot. Learn to use the quote boxes correctly or simply type your entire response at the end.

1) Speculation is not 'out of control'

2) We have been talking about oil prices specifically. I cannot help but notice you couldn't simply address the fact that you are batshit crazy to pretend oil prices only dropped 'slightly'. Instead you try to spin this to talk about gasoline prices. but if you are so pathetically ignorant that you want to get mocked with gasoline prices too.....

In November of 2007, gasoline prices were at $3 per gallon

In June of 2008 when oil peaked, gasoline prices were just above $4 per gallon

By the end of 2008, when oil had fallen back to about $37/brl.... the national average on gasoline prices was $1.80

Now... with regards to the original topic of how speculation effects pricing, speculation occurs on the OIL prices, not gasoline. Which is why I provided you with examples of real data to dispel your stupidity. But that wasn't enough for you. You had to compound your stupidity with ignorance. Now you have had that mocked as well.

Care to try for a third?
 
Where did I champion Soros, you Super Freak-ing liar? Obviously, I have to dumb everything down for you....I used the Soros because neocon toadies just love to blame him for everything under sun, along with Media Matters.

Evidently folks, our Super Freak-ing Dunce is a little slow in the reading comprehension department....either that or he purposely likes to exaggerate (or lie) about what others write.

retard.... you stated clearly...

'who controls oil besides OPEC.... it ain't George Soros and media matters'

It was YOU who brought Soros into the conversation. It was you who implied he had nothing to do with oil prices.

I laughed and mocked you for that given that Soros is one of the biggest individual speculators in the market. He made his billions speculating on currency and commodities (including oil).
 
well maybe it's in econ 201 when you have a supplier trying to hedge against a loss in price, he needs a speculator to have the option transaction take place as most of the producers are trying to protect against a price collapse.
thanks for playing.

no, the user simply could purchase a future delivery contract without using a speculator.....in fact, he would be far wiser to do so, eliminating the profit taking of the middleman......no one should be permitted in the commodities market if they are neither a producer or a user.....
 
no, the user simply could purchase a future delivery contract without using a speculator.....in fact, he would be far wiser to do so, eliminating the profit taking of the middleman......no one should be permitted in the commodities market if they are neither a producer or a user.....

Um... pmp.... people don't 'use a speculator'. They go out and buy and sell futures contracts.

when there is uncertainty about future prices due to disruptions in the supply/demand equation, the price of the contracts will be more volatile.

By your rationale no one should be allowed to buy or sell anything on any of the markets. It is ALL based on speculation. ALL OF IT. Stocks, bonds, options, futures contracts etc...

At times, the speculation can create extreme volatility.... we saw this in tech stocks in the late 90's, we saw it in oil in 2008 and again today, we saw it in treasury bonds in late 2008, we saw it in housing.... etc....
 
Um... pmp.... people don't 'use a speculator'. They go out and buy and sell futures contracts.

when there is uncertainty about future prices due to disruptions in the supply/demand equation, the price of the contracts will be more volatile.

By your rationale no one should be allowed to buy or sell anything on any of the markets. It is ALL based on speculation. ALL OF IT. Stocks, bonds, options, futures contracts etc...

At times, the speculation can create extreme volatility.... we saw this in tech stocks in the late 90's, we saw it in oil in 2008 and again today, we saw it in treasury bonds in late 2008, we saw it in housing.... etc....


But extreme volitility in some things is much much much worse than others. If food and energy prices skyrocket due to speculative trading on futures contracts and prices food food and energy go through the roof, you're basically looking at global economic collapse. Pets.com isn't going to cause those types of issues. There are good reasons for treating the two differently.
 
But extreme volitility in some things is much much much worse than others. If food and energy prices skyrocket due to speculative trading on futures contracts and prices food food and energy go through the roof, you're basically looking at global economic collapse. Pets.com isn't going to cause those types of issues. There are good reasons for treating the two differently.

Tell that to everyone who had their 401k halved due to the tech bubble bursting.

The speculation on futures again is a good thing in the sense that it once again highlights our ignorance in depending so heavily on foreign energy.

Speculation cannot be regulated in the sense of some arbitrary 'line' some idiots in DC may happen to create. Because AGAIN... speculation can drive it down just as easily as it can drive it up.

If you don't like the extreme periods of volatility, then you eliminate as much as possible the CAUSES of the extreme periods of uncertainty. Trying to regulate the 'degree' of speculation on oil or food is absurd.

While I certainly understand where you are coming from, the way you monitor speculation is to make it transparent. Meaning all trades are public information after the fact. Whether the time be one month or one quarter or one year. Make the information public. That is how you control the potential manipulation aspects of speculation.

First place I would start is not on food or energy, but on the financial derivatives held by the big investment banks. Get all that off-the-books shit back on the books. Show us how much risk those idiots are still taking.

Again... put Glass Steagall back in place, break up the big banks, put the uptick rule back in place, make transactions transparent after a certain period of time (no more than one year after purchase or one quarter after trade is offset)
 
Um... pmp.... people don't 'use a speculator'. They go out and buy and sell futures contracts.
if a speculator (one who is neither a supplier or a user) is involved in the commodities market there is a high chance the user is buying from a speculator rather than a supplier

when there is uncertainty about future prices due to disruptions in the supply/demand equation, the price of the contracts will be more volatile.
and, if speculators are involved, that will increase the volatility....isn't it obvious that is bad for both suppliers and users?....

By your rationale no one should be allowed to buy or sell anything on any of the markets. It is ALL based on speculation. ALL OF IT. Stocks, bonds, options, futures contracts etc...
under my rationale no one should be allowed to buy or sell anything in the commodities market. unless they are suppliers or users....though to be honest, any futures market is not a good thing for consumers in any field whether it be bonds, mortgages, commodities, you name it....

At times, the speculation can create extreme volatility.... we saw this in tech stocks in the late 90's, we saw it in oil in 2008 and again today, we saw it in treasury bonds in late 2008, we saw it in housing.... etc....
you're trying to prove my point, aren't you....I thought you were arguing against me.....
 
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