Former Wisconsin Attorney Gen: Gov. Walker Violated Ethics, Election and Labor Laws

Lincoln was a great president what do you have against him?

We have 2 one trick zealots on the board...a 'globalization' zealot and a 2nd amendment zealot, who believes the 2nd amendment gives citizens the right to possess tanks, F-16's, ICBM's, sidewinder missiles, aircraft carriers and thermonuclear devices.
 
We have 2 one trick zealots on the board...a 'globalization' zealot and a 2nd amendment zealot, who believes the 2nd amendment gives citizens the right to possess tanks, F-16's, ICBM's, sidewinder missiles, aircraft carriers and thermonuclear devices.

I'm also a 4th Amendment zealot, thank you very much.
 
Well, nit picker, they are protesting, then, make you feel better, even though it is striking out against the unfair laws that are trying to be passed, it isn't a general strike by the union, but it looks like it soon will be. I always forget how literal I need to be for your benefit.:loveu:

Yes, I know they are protesting. That does not change the fact that they faked an illness to do so. It does not change the fact that the parents and children are the ones left holding the bag.

Tell us... can they not protest after school hours and on weekends?

Why is it that everyone else has to suffer because they want to protest during the work day, especially since no one doubts for a minute that they don't want to give up their stranglehold on the Dems in the Wisconsin legislature?
 
Yes, I know they are protesting. That does not change the fact that they faked an illness to do so. It does not change the fact that the parents and children are the ones left holding the bag.

Tell us... can they not protest after school hours and on weekends?

Why is it that everyone else has to suffer because they want to protest during the work day, especially since no one doubts for a minute that they don't want to give up their stranglehold on the Dems in the Wisconsin legislature?

Teachers being happy will be better for the children in the long run.
 
Ironic that you IGNORED the facts I presented about what would happen if Senate Democrats came back...why is that freak? You have a strange sense of justice and ethics...so Democrats and teachers should just willfully lay down to be trampled...that is your code of ethics?

What would happen if they came back is that the elected representatives of the state of Wisconsin would vote on a bill. That is what they are paid to do.

Just because they don't like the inevitable outcome doesn't change the fact that it is unethical to run and hide.

You know freak, much of politics and campaigning is rhetoric. We as voters only get a better understanding of who the person we elected really is, by comparing his or her actions with their rhetoric and campaign promises. There is always speculation of that elected official's true intent and agenda.

But this taped phone conversation gives voters a clear view of Walker's intent and agenda...CRYSTAL clear.

Yes... his decision was to not go forward with the unethical action. Unlike the Dems in WI and the teachers unions neglecting their duties.

Walker didn't run on decertifying public employee unions during his 2010 campaign. He would never have been elected governor if he had. He promised a fiscal conservative approach because of budget and revenue problems all states are facing. Walker immediately hands $140,000,000 in tax breaks to corporate donors, THEN, he declares a $137,000,000 budget shortfall and enacts a rarely used emergency repair bill to basically declare himself a dictator.

Walker is not decertifying public unions.

Again, you use the bogus numbers. Those have already been debunked.

1) The $60m per year in lost revenue due to MN rescinding the reciprocity agreement is not included in that so called surplus.

2) neither is the $200m that the WI Supreme Court ordered to be paid back out of the General fund. You see the Dems previously took funds from another soruce and dumped it into the general fund.

3) The current number also does not include the projected shortfall of $3B plus over the next two years.

Walker talks in the phone conversation of tricking Senate Democrats into returning to the capitol for talks during a recess, then sneakily passing his budget measure, which they'd skipped town to block because it would gut union workers' collective bargaining rights. "If you heard that I was going to talk to them, that would be the only reason why."

Well, since the Dems are shirking their responsibilities and refusing to do the work they are sworn to do. I guess they really leave no option other than to 'trick them into returning'. Instead you would have them play hookie and continue to shirk the duties of an elected official.

Walker admits he considered endangering citizens he is sworn to protect by placing thugs in a crowd of schoolteachers, nurses, fire fighters, guys who drive snowplows and their families. But he also admits WHY he didn't do it...not because it is wrong, not because it is immoral, not because it is unethical and not because people might get hurt or worse. He makes it clear why he didn't do it:
"... My only fear would be is if there was a ruckus caused that that would scare the public into thinking maybe the governor has got to settle to avoid all these problems."

Again, you are projecting the standard Dem definition of troublemaker as that is what you Dems are used to in your protests. Violence, tearing up public and private property etc...
 
Teachers being happy will be better for the children in the long run.

ROFLMAO.... oh, well in that case, give them whatever they want.

:good4u:

Show the kids that if you throw a big enough tantrum that others will cave in and provide you with whatever it is you want. Great example.
 
Yes, I know they are protesting. That does not change the fact that they faked an illness to do so. It does not change the fact that the parents and children are the ones left holding the bag.

Tell us... can they not protest after school hours and on weekends?

Why is it that everyone else has to suffer because they want to protest during the work day, especially since no one doubts for a minute that they don't want to give up their stranglehold on the Dems in the Wisconsin legislature?

That's the idea behind a PROTEST...to at least minimally inconvenience others to call attention to one's plight.

Couldn't the original Tea Party protesters not have done something other than dump all that tea into Boston Harbor?

They certainly forced a great many tea lover to suffer that day.
 
Perhaps most revealing of all, however, is the recent discovery that Wisconsin tax payers are not in fact paying for the pensions and health insurance plans of state workers – one of the biggest rallying cries of conservatives.
In a brilliant piece of investigative journalism, author Rick Ungar found that: “Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.”
As it turns out, workers receive their pension and health insurance plans using ”deferred compensation” – money that employees otherwise would have been paid as cash, but instead have placed in the government operated pension fund where the money is then invested.


http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20110228183733415
 
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Perhaps most revealing of all, however, is the recent discovery that Wisconsin tax payers are not in fact paying for the pensions and health insurance plans of state workers – one of the biggest rallying cries of conservatives.
In a brilliant piece of investigative journalism, author Rick Ungar found that: “Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.”
As it turns out, workers receive their pension and health insurance plans using ”deferred compensation” – money that employees otherwise would have been paid as cash, but instead have placed in the government operated pension fund where the money is then invested.


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...u-didnt-know-about-wisconsin-gov-scott-walker

Where in your link are you getting that passage?
 
Perhaps most revealing of all, however, is the recent discovery that Wisconsin tax payers are not in fact paying for the pensions and health insurance plans of state workers – one of the biggest rallying cries of conservatives.
In a brilliant piece of investigative journalism, author Rick Ungar found that: “Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.”
As it turns out, workers receive their pension and health insurance plans using ”deferred compensation” – money that employees otherwise would have been paid as cash, but instead have placed in the government operated pension fund where the money is then invested.


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...u-didnt-know-about-wisconsin-gov-scott-walker

That is truly a piece of work.

All benefits, for both the private sector and the public sector are a form of deferred comp (pensions/401k's/403b's) or current comp (in a non-cash form) as is the case for health care.

But there is a difference between a defined contribution plan and a defined BENEFIT plan. Try and learn it.

They contribute very little of their CURRENT salary to the plans. THAT is what people are pissed about.

It is the TAX PAYER that pays for their health care plans. It is the tax payer that is essentially guaranteeing the teachers pensions. It is the tax payer that is fed up.

That said... that was a great attempt at spin by the author.
 
That is truly a piece of work.

All benefits, for both the private sector and the public sector are a form of deferred comp (pensions/401k's/403b's) or current comp (in a non-cash form) as is the case for health care.

But there is a difference between a defined contribution plan and a defined BENEFIT plan. Try and learn it.

They contribute very little of their CURRENT salary to the plans. THAT is what people are pissed about.

It is the TAX PAYER that pays for their health care plans. It is the tax payer that is essentially guaranteeing the teachers pensions. It is the tax payer that is fed up.

That said... that was a great attempt at spin by the author.

I think the spin is coming from both sides and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I am trying to learn something here, it is the reason I participate in this forum, why do you come here?
 
I think the spin is coming from both sides and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I am trying to learn something here, it is the reason I participate in this forum, why do you come here?

To educate you on topics that I know about.

To learn on topics I am not as knowledgeable on.

I work in investments and am acutely aware of the difference between defined benefit programs and defined contribution programs.... both forms of deferred compensation.
 
To educate you on topics that I know about.

To learn on topics I am not as knowledgeable on.

I work in investments and am acutely aware of the difference between defined benefit programs and defined contribution programs.... both forms of deferred compensation.

So educate me what is the difference and if they don't have the amount deferred for benefits then it should go into their pay?

so what do you see being the difference?
 
So, as I understand it, in a defined benefits program, the employers pays the your wages of $10.00, say and then also pays for your health care plan and pension, right, so far?

A defined contribution is where you agree to pay me $10, but two of that is held aside to pay for benefits? Thus, the employee pays for their own benefits?

Is this correct or am I missing something?
 
What would happen if they came back is that the elected representatives of the state of Wisconsin would vote on a bill. That is what they are paid to do.

Just because they don't like the inevitable outcome doesn't change the fact that it is unethical to run and hide.



Yes... his decision was to not go forward with the unethical action. Unlike the Dems in WI and the teachers unions neglecting their duties.



Walker is not decertifying public unions.

Again, you use the bogus numbers. Those have already been debunked.

1) The $60m per year in lost revenue due to MN rescinding the reciprocity agreement is not included in that so called surplus.

2) neither is the $200m that the WI Supreme Court ordered to be paid back out of the General fund. You see the Dems previously took funds from another soruce and dumped it into the general fund.

3) The current number also does not include the projected shortfall of $3B plus over the next two years.



Well, since the Dems are shirking their responsibilities and refusing to do the work they are sworn to do. I guess they really leave no option other than to 'trick them into returning'. Instead you would have them play hookie and continue to shirk the duties of an elected official.



Again, you are projecting the standard Dem definition of troublemaker as that is what you Dems are used to in your protests. Violence, tearing up public and private property etc...

Again, you have a very strange definition of 'duty'...If we follow your twisted logic, you would chastise any Nazi soldier who refused to show up to do his 'duty' to light the ovens. The Democrats ARE DOING their duty, by preventing their constituents from being steamrolled by a bogus repair bill from passing before every attempt to have the dictator negotiate a compromise. The teachers have acquiesced on every single financial demand from Walker, and he still won't negotiate or allow the union to retain their ability to collective bargaining, so YES, Walker IS decertifying their public unions.

Walker claims a $137,000,000 shortfall and he DID hand over $140,000,000 in tax breaks to corporate donors. DO THE MATH...it's shouldn't take more than an hour for your brain to decipher.

Then the Mayor and the Chief of Police chief of Madison are 'projecting'...

Tens of thousands of people have demonstrated at the Capitol over the past 11 days, during which Madison police made no arrests.

Mayor Dave Cieslewicz: "Someone in his inner circle raised seriously the possibility of hiring people to come in and apparently create violence in my city, I find it appalling, and I want to know who that was."

Police Chief Noble Wray also said he wanted an explanation from the governor, saying he found it "very unsettling and troubling that anyone would consider creating safety risks for our citizens and law enforcement officers"
 
So educate me what is the difference and if they don't have the amount deferred for benefits then it should go into their pay?

so what do you see being the difference?

The difference between defined benefits and defined contributions plans is who the risk lies with in terms of the investments.

In both cases the employer agrees to make certain contributions to the employee. In a benefit plan, the risk of investment lies with the employer. They guarantee a certain pension for life, regardless of what the market or economy does. In a contribution plan (like a 401k), the company makes a contribution and the risk of investment performance lies in the hands of the employee. The employee can decide how much risk their portfolio should have. If the market and economy turn south, the performance effects the employee, but not the long term health of the employer.

This is why we have such vast amounts of unfunded liabilities for pension plans right now. Governments have promised lavish pensions which are now grossly underfunded because the idiots in government (both parties) assumed growth rates that were not sustainable. Not to mention the numerous rumors flying around that they weren't even funded properly to begin with.

In both cases, the money could come directly to the employee rather than as deferred comp, which would effectively raise the current salaries of both public and private workers. But then both would have to have the discipline to save/invest on their own for retirement (or risk living off SS alone).

Health care bene's are NOT deferred compensation. We are all being compensated for them today. The difference is in who pays for the health insurance. Right now, most private and public entities have guaranteed coverage plans. Meaning they deduct from your current salary a portion and the employer pays a portion. This varies by employer, but on average the private sector pays about 28% and public employees (especially unionized) pay little to none. This is where a major point of contention lies.... as if they are not paying anything out of current salaries (which are pretty much on par with the private sector) then that means the money is coming from tax payers (both public and private). In essence asking the private sector to pick up a larger portion of the tab.
 
Again, you have a very strange definition of 'duty'...If we follow your twisted logic, you would chastise any Nazi soldier who refused to show up to do his 'duty' to light the ovens. The Democrats ARE DOING their duty, by preventing their constituents from being steamrolled by a bogus repair bill from passing before every attempt to have the dictator negotiate a compromise. The teachers have acquiesced on every single financial demand from Walker, and he still won't negotiate or allow the union to retain their ability to collective bargaining, so YES, Walker IS decertifying their public unions.

Why is it that idiots like you always try and associate everything with Nazi's?

To equate this to Nazi's is an insult to everyone that suffered at the hands of the Nazi's. It is a tired tactic of the left.

They are NOT doing their duty. Nothing would ever get done in this country if the minority party simply ran away and hid every time a bill came up for vote that they knew wouldn't go their way.

Also... the reason Walker is not backing off is because he is well aware that the state needs long term reform. If he simply implements the concessions and then the Dems retake control and simply give their union buddies everything back, then nothing has been done to solve the long term fiscal problems the state faces.

Also... he is NOT decertifying the union. The union would still exist to negotiate wages. It simply would not be negotiating the benefits any more.

Walker claims a $137,000,000 shortfall and he DID hand over $140,000,000 in tax breaks to corporate donors. DO THE MATH...it's shouldn't take more than an hour for your brain to decipher.

So, once again you are going to ignore the following????

1) The $60m per year in lost revenue due to MN rescinding the reciprocity agreement is not included in that so called surplus.

2) neither is the $200m that the WI Supreme Court ordered to be paid back out of the General fund. You see the Dems previously took funds from another soruce and dumped it into the general fund.

3) The current number also does not include the projected shortfall of $3B plus over the next two years.


[quoet]Then the Mayor and the Chief of Police chief of Madison are 'projecting'...

Tens of thousands of people have demonstrated at the Capitol over the past 11 days, during which Madison police made no arrests.

Mayor Dave Cieslewicz: "Someone in his inner circle raised seriously the possibility of hiring people to come in and apparently create violence in my city, I find it appalling, and I want to know who that was."

Police Chief Noble Wray also said he wanted an explanation from the governor, saying he found it "very unsettling and troubling that anyone would consider creating safety risks for our citizens and law enforcement officers"[/QUOTE]

Yes... they most certainly are projecting. Amazing that the two Dems would do that.... shocking I tell you... shocking.
 
The difference between defined benefits and defined contributions plans is who the risk lies with in terms of the investments.

In both cases the employer agrees to make certain contributions to the employee. In a benefit plan, the risk of investment lies with the employer. They guarantee a certain pension for life, regardless of what the market or economy does. In a contribution plan (like a 401k), the company makes a contribution and the risk of investment performance lies in the hands of the employee. The employee can decide how much risk their portfolio should have. If the market and economy turn south, the performance effects the employee, but not the long term health of the employer.

This is why we have such vast amounts of unfunded liabilities for pension plans right now. Governments have promised lavish pensions which are now grossly underfunded because the idiots in government (both parties) assumed growth rates that were not sustainable. Not to mention the numerous rumors flying around that they weren't even funded properly to begin with.

In both cases, the money could come directly to the employee rather than as deferred comp, which would effectively raise the current salaries of both public and private workers. But then both would have to have the discipline to save/invest on their own for retirement (or risk living off SS alone).

Health care bene's are NOT deferred compensation. We are all being compensated for them today. The difference is in who pays for the health insurance. Right now, most private and public entities have guaranteed coverage plans. Meaning they deduct from your current salary a portion and the employer pays a portion. This varies by employer, but on average the private sector pays about 28% and public employees (especially unionized) pay little to none. This is where a major point of contention lies.... as if they are not paying anything out of current salaries (which are pretty much on par with the private sector) then that means the money is coming from tax payers (both public and private). In essence asking the private sector to pick up a larger portion of the tab.

WRONG...

When it comes to improving public understanding of tax policy, nothing has been more troubling than the deeply flawed coverage of the Wisconsin state employees' fight over collective bargaining.

Economic nonsense is being reported as fact in most of the news reports on the Wisconsin dispute, the product of a breakdown of skepticism among journalists multiplied by their lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to "contribute more" to their pension and health insurance plans.

Accepting Gov. Walker' s assertions as fact, and failing to check, created the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not.

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to Wisconsin' s retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin' s private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

The labor agreements show that the pension plan money is part of the total negotiated compensation. The key phrase, in those agreements I read (emphasis added), is: "The Employer shall contribute on behalf of the employee." This shows that this is just divvying up the total compensation package, so much for cash wages, so much for paid vacations, so much for retirement, etc.

The collective bargaining agreements for prosecutors, cops and scientists are all on-line.

Reporters should sit down, get a cup of coffee and read them. And then they could take what they learn, and what the state website says about fringe benefits, to Gov. Walker and challenge his assumptions.

And they should point out the very first words the state has posted at a web page on careers as a state employee (emphasis added):

The fringe benefits offered to State of Wisconsin employees are significant, and are a valuable part of an individual's compensation package.

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