Rand Paul: Cut U.S. Aid to Israel

Ice Dancer said:
There was no such people as "Palestinians" until the political need arose to create them. Jews have just as much right to the land of Palestine as the Arabs. They too have always had a presense there. Until Jews re-established the state of Israel the Arab peoples of that region were mostly a nomadic people.

It has been the acts of aggression against the Jewish state of Israel that have caused Israel to retailate.

Hamas has been the single most contentious entity in the region-They wish to create distrust and animosity for one end-to destroy Israel.
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Israel quit existing as a jewish state in 70 AD. From that point til 1948 there was no Jewish State. Jews were a minority in that region. The Suoix have a greater claim to parts of the US than the Jews did Transjordan in 1948. Jews began to immigrate to the Middle East after the war and FORCE people to accept their presence. They committed acts of terrorism.the Irgun and the Stern Gang killed untold numbers of non-combatants including Jews in incidents like the King David bombing. The israeli government has commited as many acts of espionage against the US as the Soviet Union. I was in an MI unit in Germany and were specifically warned of threats from Israeli agents and there being more reported contacts with them than with agents of the USSR. One of the most serious acts of espionage in the last half of the 20th cemtury was by a US agent on behalf of Israel. That government has repeatedly petitioned the US for commutation pf his sentence and release to them. They were bedfellows out of common necessity and NOT because we shared any true common ideology. Your affliction with Israelophilia is misguided at best.
 
Socrtease said:
Israel quit existing as a jewish state in 70 AD. From that point til 1948 there was no Jewish State. Jews were a minority in that region. The Suoix have a greater claim to parts of the US than the Jews did Transjordan in 1948. Jews began to immigrate to the Middle East after the war and FORCE people to accept their presence. They committed acts of terrorism.the Irgun and the Stern Gang killed untold numbers of non-combatants including Jews in incidents like the King David bombing. The israeli government has commited as many acts of espionage against the US as the Soviet Union. I was in an MI unit in Germany and were specifically warned of threats from Israeli agents and there being more reported contacts with them than with agents of the USSR. One of the most serious acts of espionage in the last half of the 20th cemtury was by a US agent on behalf of Israel. That government has repeatedly petitioned the US for commutation pf his sentence and release to them. They were bedfellows out of common necessity and NOT because we shared any true common ideology. Your affliction with Israelophilia is misguided at best.
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The Jews have maintained a presence in Palestine from time immemorial. By the late 19th century they made up 1/6 th of the population of Paletine. I understand the politics- It changes not the FACTS. The fact is that Israel is a sovereign state. They have right to defend and protect that sovereignty.

One of the better timelines
My problem is with the lopsided historical revisionism.
 
Ice Dancer said:
The Jews have maintained a presence in Palestine from time immemorial. By the late 19th century they made up 1/6 th of the population of Paletine. I understand the politics- It changes not the FACTS. The fact is that Israel is a sovereign state. They have right to defend and protect that sovereignty.

One of the better timelines
My problem is with the lopsided historical revisionism.
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So what claim do Ashkenazi Jews have to come from the Middle East?
 
Ice Dancer said:
There was no such people as "Palestinians" until the political need arose to create them. Jews have just as much right to the land of Palestine as the Arabs. They too have always had a presense there. Until Jews re-established the state of Israel the Arab peoples of that region were mostly a nomadic people.

It has been the acts of aggression against the Jewish state of Israel that have caused Israel to retailate.

Hamas has been the single most contentious entity in the region-They wish to create distrust and animosity for one end-to destroy Israel.
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So you are saying that the indigenous peoples of Palestine had less rights to the land than Ashkenazi Jews whose ancestors never even came from the Middle East in the first place. It is amazing how you buy so easily into the Zionist historical revisionism. The only ones who have any historical connection to the Middle East are Mizrachi Jews, who historically have always lived in relative harmony with the indigenous Arab population.
 
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CensoredRed said:
I do not believe that the acts of aggression against them justifies this continued land grab and the escalated violence. Again, it is my opinion.
And, yes I was aware of Hamas' involvement.
We as a country always defend Israel because of Hamas but I don't like to ignore the vast amount of suffering because of it.
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the 'palestinians' fled the new nation of israel when it was formed hoping that the surrounding 'arab' states would destroy the new nation

those that did not flee became israeli citizens

the palestinians have no one to blame but themselves
 
CensoredRed said:
Okay, I have my opinions then. I'm not sure I said that anything was a proven fact. If I did, I misspoke.
Anyway, it is my opinion that our aid and support of Israel has not done us alot of good. Sure, they are our ally if you want to look at it that way but again I ask, did they help in the war on terror? I think we might find we had more countries willing to be our allies if not for our continued support of Israel.
I do not find Israel to be morally superior as someone else said because I do not agree with the treatment of the Palestinians. They took land and then they took more land and more again. The Palestinians are treated like pond-scum. If I were Palestinian I would be fighting them, too. They won't stop until they have taken everything the Palestinians have. Just in the last couple of weeks, they tore down a Palestinian landmark to erect more Israeli settlements. I am appalled to have them even as allies.
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:good4u: Great post!
 
Ice Dancer said:
I never said anything like that Tom. Lame and specious argument attempt by you-but then, well, you are TP after all.
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You said the Jews have maintained a presence in Palestine from time immemorial. So I ask you what rights do Ashkenazi Jews have to live in Palestine seeing as they never originated from there in the first place?
 
tom prendergast said:
You said the Jews have maintained a presence in Palestine from time immemorial. So I ask you what rights do Ashkenazi Jews have to live in Palestine seeing as they never originated from there in the first place?
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They have-

What right do you suppose they have Tom? Really, this is going to be your earth shattering offering to this thread???
 
Socrtease said:
Israel quit existing as a jewish state in 70 AD. From that point til 1948 there was no Jewish State. Jews were a minority in that region. The Suoix have a greater claim to parts of the US than the Jews did Transjordan in 1948. Jews began to immigrate to the Middle East after the war and FORCE people to accept their presence. They committed acts of terrorism.the Irgun and the Stern Gang killed untold numbers of non-combatants including Jews in incidents like the King David bombing. The israeli government has commited as many acts of espionage against the US as the Soviet Union. I was in an MI unit in Germany and were specifically warned of threats from Israeli agents and there being more reported contacts with them than with agents of the USSR. One of the most serious acts of espionage in the last half of the 20th cemtury was by a US agent on behalf of Israel. That government has repeatedly petitioned the US for commutation pf his sentence and release to them. They were bedfellows out of common necessity and NOT because we shared any true common ideology. Your affliction with Israelophilia is misguided at best.
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You are merely scratching the surface(although with a very large pick).

There seems to be a very large and powerful atheist jew movement.

They have spies and agents everywhere. And puppet operatives in every government and corporation.

They have even managed to corrupt some faithful Jews.(Note: faithful Jews must be differentiated from the unfaithful).

Look who was behind the war in Iraq. How they cherry picked info wage war.
Note: These are all Zionists who reported directly to Sharon( an Irgun).

Basically jewish organized crime.

Office of Special Plans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They say they caught Mossad agents around the twin towers just before 9/11......

Look at how Israel turned on the USS Liberty and nothing happened to them.

When you realize how much power in America the jews have, then you will be closer to the truth.

I do not want to get all religious but the Gospel states that 1/3 of the Jews will fall from grace at the end of days.

And that the anti-Christs will rule the world and they will be praised by those who are deceived.

The jews pretty much fit the Gospel's description of an anti-Christ.....

This is what I said on the other board right before my access was denied.
 
wiseones2cents said:
You are merely scratching the surface(although with a very large pick).

There seems to be a very large and powerful atheist jew movement.

They have spies and agents everywhere. And puppet operatives in every government and corporation.

They have even managed to corrupt some faithful Jews.(Note: faithful Jews must be differentiated from the unfaithful).

Look who was behind the war in Iraq. How they cherry picked info wage war.
Note: These are all Zionists who reported directly to Sharon( an Irgun).

Basically jewish organized crime.

Office of Special Plans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They say they caught Mossad agents around the twin towers just before 9/11......

Look at how Israel turned on the USS Liberty and nothing happened to them.

When you realize how much power in America the jews have, then you will be closer to the truth.

I do not want to get all religious but the Gospel states that 1/3 of the Jews will fall from grace at the end of days.

And that the anti-Christs will rule the world and they will be praised by those who are deceived.

The jews pretty much fit the Gospel's description of an anti-Christ.....

This is what I said on the other board right before my access was denied.
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This is your greatest fear isn't it?

 
tom prendergast said:
I just can't understand how any group can lay claim to a land from which they never originated, so maybe you can enlighten me?
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Ashkenazi Jews did originate from the ME Tom- I know you think you've uncovered some important fact...But it's bedside the point since there were approx 100k Jews in Palestine before the time the new state of Israel was born. Once this took place all Jews were invited to return.

other information-

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Ashkenazi Jews did originate from the ME Tom- I know you think you've uncovered some important fact...But it's bedside the point since there were approx 100k Jews in Palestine before the time the new state of Israel was born. Once this took place all Jews were invited to return.

other information-

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.
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I believe the words of David Ben Gurion sum up the real situation, namely that European and American Jews invoke God as the final arbiter to their claim to Palestine because any other claim is spurious at best. I wonder if you would be happy if the indigenous peoples of the pre-USA said that they wanted all their land back bearing in mind that it was taken from them in the 19th century. By contrast, any claims that Ashkenazi Jews have date back nearly two millenia.



“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
 
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tom prendergast said:
I just can't understand how any group can lay claim to a land from which they never originated, so maybe you can enlighten me?
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It's easy. You take a gun and you start killing the original inhabitants unless they get off the land you want. That's how we did it. Well, more accurately, that's how our English immigrant forefathers did it. That's how the Jews did it in Palestine. We rationalized it by calling it "Manifest Destiny". They rationalized it with history and religion.
 
tom prendergast said:
I believe the words of David Ben Gurion sum up the real situation, namely that European and American Jews invoke God as the final arbiter to their claim to Palestine because any other claim is spurious at best. I wonder if you would be happy if the indigenous peoples of the pre-USA said that they wanted all their land back bearing in mind that it was taken from them in the 19th century. By contrast, any claims that Ashkenazi Jews have date back nearly two millenia.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
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Also, I've read that more than half of Israelis consider themselves secular so how does invoking God justify their actions?
 
tom prendergast said:
I believe the words of David Ben Gurion sum up the real situation, namely that European and American Jews invoke God as the final arbiter to their claim to Palestine because any other claim is spurious at best. I wonder if you would be happy if the indigenous peoples of the pre-USA said that they wanted all their land back bearing in mind that it was taken from them in the 19th century. By contrast, any claims that Ashkenazi Jews have date back nearly two millenia.



“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
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Well, Tom, the real point is (no, not the one on top of your head) that the Jews were given Israel by the Brits and it is NOW a sovereign state. That you thought bringing up the distant connection to the land of one sect of Jews was an earth shattering point-is well- not even a blip.
 
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