Rand Paul: Cut U.S. Aid to Israel

Voltaire said:
Plenty. Most of the "mainline" Protestant churches despise Israel, including the United Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church USA, and United Church of Christ.
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Despise is a harsh word. I know that my Church, United Methodist, does not support our unilateral policy supporting Israel.
 
Voltaire said:
This is where I must part ways with Rand Paul. While I'm okay with cutting foreign aid by 20 - 30% (along with all other Federal spending), Israel is a crucial ally in the middle east and it's in our best interests to continue supporting them. Same applies to South Korea and Republic of China (Taiwan).
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Why are they a crucial allies and why is it in our best intrest to support them? It seems all to often our policy supporting Israel is in Israel's interest and not our own.
 
Voltaire said:
The United States should support Israel (a secular state) because they are morally superior to their neighboring countries, which over the past 30 - 40 years have slid into barbarism and superstition; not due to any belief in the prophecies contained in the book of Revelation.
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Really? How are they morally superior? When they take peoples homes away from them with out compensation and give them to Jewish settlers because they happened to be born an arab and not a jew? Please explain how this makes them morally superior? Or is it because they pen arabs up in ghetto's and deny them access to jobs, medical care and their human rights? Does that make them morally superior?

I find that notion completely laughable and probabily based on anti-islamic bigotry.

Look, I've known Jews. I've known them as friends and colleagues and one of my mentors in my profession is Jewish. They are many fine things, morally superior though they are not. That is not to imply they are morally degenerate but superior? I don't think so.
 
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Mott the Hoople said:
Despise is a harsh word. I know that my Church, United Methodist, does not support our unilateral policy supporting Israel.
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"Unilateral" is so overused and unreasonably applied here. We give money to Egypt, to Jordan, to the Palestinian government, etc.

That isn't "unilateral"... It's silly to suggest it is.
 
Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
Plenty. Most of the "mainline" Protestant churches despise Israel, including the United Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church USA, and United Church of Christ.
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Actually there are alot of Evangelicals that are pro Israeli. Some because they believe the Jews must be in Israel, and others because they are taught to give special attention to jews by their harlot ministers(read elitist puppets).


Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
The United States should support Israel (a secular state) because they are morally superior to their neighboring countries, which over the past 30 - 40 years have slid into barbarism and superstition; not due to any belief in the prophecies contained in the book of Revelation..
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Morally superior?LOL Maybe in the eyes of an atheist, not a true religious person.

The reason why Islamic nations are behind is due to oppression by leaders the west has installed. They fear the Muslims rising again and taking over like they did via the Ottoman Empire.

Who were allies with the jews might I add.Who were kicked out of Spain in the 16th century by the Christians.
 
Its true that historically the Muslims had no religious pretext against the Jews. During the rise of Islam, Muhammad had some Jewish groups slaughtered in Medina when they tried to betray him to the pagans. Similarly, when the Jews in Spain sided with the Muslims, the Christians kicked them out. Oddly, in the centuries following this, the Spanish passed a law welcoming the Jews to return, and many Jews were able to take advantage of the law to escape the holocaust.

However, since the 19th Century, relations between Jews and Muslims have fallen completely apart.
 
Threedee said:
Its true that historically the Muslims had no religious pretext against the Jews. During the rise of Islam, Muhammad had some Jewish groups slaughtered in Medina when they tried to betray him to the pagans. Similarly, when the Jews in Spain sided with the Muslims, the Christians kicked them out. Oddly, in the centuries following this, the Spanish passed a law welcoming the Jews to return, and many Jews were able to take advantage of the law to escape the holocaust.

However, since the 19th Century, relations between Jews and Muslims have fallen completely apart.
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Except that everyone must be brought under islam rule and accept allah as prophet. The jews are not exempt from the general islamic directive to subject humanity to islam. Islam means submission.
 
Threedee said:
Its true that historically the Muslims had no religious pretext against the Jews. During the rise of Islam, Muhammad had some Jewish groups slaughtered in Medina when they tried to betray him to the pagans. Similarly, when the Jews in Spain sided with the Muslims, the Christians kicked them out. Oddly, in the centuries following this, the Spanish passed a law welcoming the Jews to return, and many Jews were able to take advantage of the law to escape the holocaust.

However, since the 19th Century, relations between Jews and Muslims have fallen completely apart.
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Could it be that Jews are known backstabbers?
 
AssHatZombie said:
Except that everyone must be brought under islam rule and accept allah as prophet. The jews are not exempt from the general islamic directive to subject humanity to islam. Islam means submission.
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They received this concept from Christian nations unfortunately. The Christian Emperors have been known to do the same.......Even before Islam was born.
 
Threedee said:
In 610 Rome was dead for less than 200 years, and Europe was to be in the Dark Age for another 300.
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Go read up on the early Roman Empire and there mass conversions of Germanic Tribes especially. Whether this was by the sword or not, is debatable, though if the inquisition is any indication? I would say, there was force involved. Did they exert this force through out the Empire and abroad? I would imagine so. Arabia was within the Roman Empire.

The people in those times were quite barbaric.

I'm sure people in our future will look back at all the needless wars for profit(disguised as good deeds) and find us barbaric also......
 
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Ice Dancer said:
This is a comparison...is it not?

"We griped and moaned and gnashed our teeth over the number of UN sanctions on Iraq but said not one peep over the HUGE number of sanctions against Israel"

What I pointed out is that the nature and kinds of sanctions are not equal so your comparison...err...whatever you want to call it- is specious.

How is our helping Israel and mainting a good trade partner, who likewise aids us as a strategic intelligence alliance, a bad thing? Seriously, you have not clearly supported your opinion with any actual facts.
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Okay, I have my opinions then. I'm not sure I said that anything was a proven fact. If I did, I misspoke.
Anyway, it is my opinion that our aid and support of Israel has not done us alot of good. Sure, they are our ally if you want to look at it that way but again I ask, did they help in the war on terror? I think we might find we had more countries willing to be our allies if not for our continued support of Israel.
I do not find Israel to be morally superior as someone else said because I do not agree with the treatment of the Palestinians. They took land and then they took more land and more again. The Palestinians are treated like pond-scum. If I were Palestinian I would be fighting them, too. They won't stop until they have taken everything the Palestinians have. Just in the last couple of weeks, they tore down a Palestinian landmark to erect more Israeli settlements. I am appalled to have them even as allies.
 
CensoredRed said:
Okay, I have my opinions then. I'm not sure I said that anything was a proven fact. If I did, I misspoke.
Anyway, it is my opinion that our aid and support of Israel has not done us alot of good. Sure, they are our ally if you want to look at it that way but again I ask, did they help in the war on terror? I think we might find we had more countries willing to be our allies if not for our continued support of Israel.
I do not find Israel to be morally superior as someone else said because I do not agree with the treatment of the Palestinians. They took land and then they took more land and more again. The Palestinians are treated like pond-scum. If I were Palestinian I would be fighting them, too. They won't stop until they have taken everything the Palestinians have. Just in the last couple of weeks, they tore down a Palestinian landmark to erect more Israeli settlements. I am appalled to have them even as allies.
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There was no such people as "Palestinians" until the political need arose to create them. Jews have just as much right to the land of Palestine as the Arabs. They too have always had a presense there. Until Jews re-established the state of Israel the Arab peoples of that region were mostly a nomadic people.

It has been the acts of aggression against the Jewish state of Israel that have caused Israel to retailate.

Hamas has been the single most contentious entity in the region-They wish to create distrust and animosity for one end-to destroy Israel.
 
Ice Dancer said:
There was no such people as "Palestinians" until the political need arose to create them. Jews have just as much right to the land of Palestine as the Arabs. They too have always had a presense there. Until Jews re-established the state of Israel the Arab peoples of that region were mostly a nomadic people.

It has been the acts of aggression against the Jewish state of Israel that have caused Israel to retailate.

Hamas has been the single most contentious entity in the region-They wish to create distrust and animosity for one end-to destroy Israel.
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I do not believe that the acts of aggression against them justifies this continued land grab and the escalated violence. Again, it is my opinion.
And, yes I was aware of Hamas' involvement.
We as a country always defend Israel because of Hamas but I don't like to ignore the vast amount of suffering because of it.
 
CensoredRed said:
I do not believe that the acts of aggression against them justifies this continued land grab and the escalated violence. Again, it is my opinion.
And, yes I was aware of Hamas' involvement.
We as a country always defend Israel because of Hamas but I don't like to ignore the vast amount of suffering because of it.
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The majority of suffering is directly connected to Hamas and the unwillingness of the Palestinians to live at peace with Israel.

http://www.meforum.org/334/the-right-of-return-is-suicide-for-israel
 
Ice Dancer said:
The majority of suffering is directly connected to Hamas and the unwillingness of the Palestinians to live at peace with Israel.

http://www.meforum.org/334/the-right-of-return-is-suicide-for-israel
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I take the word of my Yael who comes from Israel. He said that they will kill a Palestinian with little or no provocation. Even the innocent. That is why Yael moved here. It was unnerving to see him come face to face with an arab once when we were out because his entire life he was taught to hate them. He wound up sitting and talking with the man for more than two hours and they hugged when they parted. I know this means nothing to you but I remain unconvinced also.
 
CensoredRed said:
I take the word of my Yael who comes from Israel. He said that they will kill a Palestinian with little or no provocation. Even the innocent. That is why Yael moved here. It was unnerving to see him come face to face with an arab once when we were out because his entire life he was taught to hate them. He wound up sitting and talking with the man for more than two hours and they hugged when they parted. I know this means nothing to you but I remain unconvinced also.
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I have met Israeli's too-and they are pretty ambivalent towards political Israel....they have little control and are themselves recipients of Arab hatred. Your story is one of many to be sure---Tell me how many Arabs have you met who love Israeli Jews?...I mean especially in light of your own personal bias against Israel... The focused hatred of Israel by most inhabitants of the ME is well known.

From Israel's perspective
 
Ice Dancer said:
I have met Israeli's too-and they are pretty ambivalent towards political Israel....they have little control and are themselves recipients of Arab hatred. Your story is one of many to be sure---Tell me how many Arabs have you met who love Israeli Jews?...I mean especially in light of your own personal bias against Israel... The focused hatred of Israel by most inhabitants of the ME is well known.

From Israel's perspective
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Only one. He is a former boss of mine. He didn't like to talk about it at all. I never really got to find out his true feelings toward Israelis.
I have tried to put myself in the shoes of both sides and can see why Israel felt it needed such extreme measures to defend itself but it continues past that defense. Again, only my opinion.
 
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