Good job obama!

fair enough....but the overall picture is still weak and the only liberal i've seen holding obama responsible is nigel, though for odd reasons

As I can personally attest to I know the private sector needs to get going and I don't think Obama's policies are particularly helping it.

That being said while I don't want to celebrate anyone losing their job per se it is a good thing when the government downsizes.
 
once again, you miss the overall picture

its like you're stuck on stupid and refuse to see anything other than the government numbers


Nah, I'm pretty aware the relevant numbers. We just have a fairly fundamental disagreement. My point is pretty basic. We have high unemployment. We have low aggregate demand. We have a yawning output gap. In this environment, the government should do things to stimulate demand so that business hire more people to produce more to meet that increased demand to close the output gap.

Conversely, in this environment you want to further reduce demand and further increase unemployment by cutting government spending and shedding government jobs. I just fail to see how this is supposed to result in economic growth and decreased unemployment.
 
Nah, I'm pretty aware the relevant numbers. We just have a fairly fundamental disagreement. My point is pretty basic. We have high unemployment. We have low aggregate demand. We have a yawning output gap. In this environment, the government should do things to stimulate demand so that business hire more people to produce more to meet that increased demand to close the output gap.

Conversely, in this environment you want to further reduce demand and further increase unemployment by cutting government spending and shedding government jobs. I just fail to see how this is supposed to result in economic growth and decreased unemployment.

because, imo, decreasing government spending and jobs only serves to increase the private sector...in recent years both federal and state government have increased jobs and spending to heights never seen before, both parties are responsible and imo i believe this has added to the lousy economy....and like i said, i believe this economy is mostly a correction

i believe we need to fundamentally change our tradiing, we have destroyed this country's ability to be an industrial powerhouse, our trade imbalances are disgusting....i believe if we start there, we gain more jobs here and the economy will improve
 
because, imo, decreasing government spending and jobs only serves to increase the private sector...in recent years both federal and state government have increased jobs and spending to heights never seen before, both parties are responsible and imo i believe this has added to the lousy economy....and like i said, i believe this economy is mostly a correction

But the relationship between government spending and jobs and private sector spending and jobs is not zero sum. It isn't as though as one increases the other decreases. For example, only the government can build a new tunnel into Manhattan from NJ. That government spending increases private sector employment. In such instances government spending creates private sector employment.

You're describing a crowding out problem but in current economic conditions there is little risk of government spending crowding out private sector growth.

i believe we need to fundamentally change our tradiing, we have destroyed this country's ability to be an industrial powerhouse, our trade imbalances are disgusting....i believe if we start there, we gain more jobs here and the economy will improve


How in the hell do you expect that to happen by cutting government spending and jobs? I don't quite see the relationship. Businesses send jobs overseas because labor is cheaper and consumer goods are cheaper, not because the government spends too much money.
 
i love those graphs, its so fucking funny how the kook left relies on them as if it proves a point

1. that graph starts when the dems had a majority in congress

2. are you dumbasses really claiming that as soon as obama took office, due to his holiness and just plain awesomeness, the economy turned around SOLELY because obama took office

lmao

The elephant in the room...the stimulus WORKED.

So How Did the Bush Tax Cuts Work Out for the Economy?


The 2008 income tax data are now in, so we can assess the fulfillment of the Republican promise that tax cuts would produce widespread prosperity by looking at all the years of the George W. Bush presidency.

Just as they did in 2000, the Republicans are running this year on an economic platform of tax cuts, especially making the tax cuts permanent for the richest among us. So how did the tax cuts work out? My analysis of the new data, with all figures in 2008 dollars:

Total income was $2.74 trillion less during the eight Bush years than if incomes had stayed at 2000 levels.

That much additional income would have more than made up for the lack of demand that keeps us mired in the Great Recession. That would mean no need for a stimulus, although it would not have affected the last administration's interfering with market capitalism by bailing out irresponsible Wall Streeters instead of letting the market determine their fortunes.

The hard, empirical facts:

The tax cuts did not spur investment. Job growth in the George W. Bush years was one-seventh that of the Clinton years. Nixon and Ford did better than Bush on jobs. Wages fell during the last administration. Average incomes fell. The number of Americans in poverty, as officially measured, hit a 16-year high last year of 43.6 million, though a National Academy of Sciences study says that the real poverty figure is closer to 51 million. Food banks are swamped. Foreclosure signs are everywhere. Americans and their governments are drowning in debt. And at the nexus of tax and healthcare, Republican ideas perpetuate a cruel and immoral system that rations healthcare -- while consuming every sixth dollar in the economy and making businesses, especially small businesses, less efficient and less profitable.

This is economic madness. It is policy divorced from empirical evidence. It is insanity because the policies are illusory and delusional. The evidence is in, and it shows beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts failed to achieve the promised goals.

So why in the world is anyone giving any credence to the insistence by Republican leaders that tax cuts, more tax cuts, and deeper tax cuts are the remedy to our economic woes? Why are they not laughingstocks? It is one thing for Fox News to treat these policies as successful, but what of the rest of what Sarah Palin calls with some justification the "lamestream media," who treat these policies as worthy ideas?

The Republican leadership is like the doctors who believed bleeding cured the sick. When physicians bled George Washington, he got worse, so they increased the treatment until they bled him to death. Our government, the basis of our freedoms, is spewing red ink, and the Republican solution is to spill ever more.

Those who ignore evidence and pledge blind faith in policy based on ideological fantasy are little different from the clerics who made Galileo Galilei confess that the sun revolves around the earth. The Capitol Hill and media Republicans differ only in not threatening death to those who deny their dogma.

How much more evidence do we need that we made terrible and costly mistakes in 2001 and 2003?
 
E=NigelTufnel;714031]But the relationship between government spending and jobs and private sector spending and jobs is not zero sum. It isn't as though as one increases the other decreases. For example, only the government can build a new tunnel into Manhattan from NJ. That government spending increases private sector employment. In such instances government spending creates private sector employment.

true, i did not mean to imply i think it is a zero sum situation...i will say though, that your example above, while true, is not the answer....how many tunnels can the government build? how many bridges to nowhere should the government build just to "create" jobs?

You're describing a crowding out problem but in current economic conditions there is little risk of government spending crowding out private sector growth.

why do you believe that?



How in the hell do you expect that to happen by cutting government spending and jobs? I don't quite see the relationship. Businesses send jobs overseas because labor is cheaper and consumer goods are cheaper, not because the government spends too much money.

government spending and jobs have little to do with our trade deficits....we need to change our relationships with other countries and if that means changing our trade policies, then let's do it

i never claimed there was a correlation, you pulled that out of your cochese ass
 
The elephant in the room...the stimulus WORKED.

So How Did the Bush Tax Cuts Work Out for the Economy?


The 2008 income tax data are now in, so we can assess the fulfillment of the Republican promise that tax cuts would produce widespread prosperity by looking at all the years of the George W. Bush presidency.

Just as they did in 2000, the Republicans are running this year on an economic platform of tax cuts, especially making the tax cuts permanent for the richest among us. So how did the tax cuts work out? My analysis of the new data, with all figures in 2008 dollars:

Total income was $2.74 trillion less during the eight Bush years than if incomes had stayed at 2000 levels.

That much additional income would have more than made up for the lack of demand that keeps us mired in the Great Recession. That would mean no need for a stimulus, although it would not have affected the last administration's interfering with market capitalism by bailing out irresponsible Wall Streeters instead of letting the market determine their fortunes.

The hard, empirical facts:

The tax cuts did not spur investment. Job growth in the George W. Bush years was one-seventh that of the Clinton years. Nixon and Ford did better than Bush on jobs. Wages fell during the last administration. Average incomes fell. The number of Americans in poverty, as officially measured, hit a 16-year high last year of 43.6 million, though a National Academy of Sciences study says that the real poverty figure is closer to 51 million. Food banks are swamped. Foreclosure signs are everywhere. Americans and their governments are drowning in debt. And at the nexus of tax and healthcare, Republican ideas perpetuate a cruel and immoral system that rations healthcare -- while consuming every sixth dollar in the economy and making businesses, especially small businesses, less efficient and less profitable.

This is economic madness. It is policy divorced from empirical evidence. It is insanity because the policies are illusory and delusional. The evidence is in, and it shows beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts failed to achieve the promised goals.

So why in the world is anyone giving any credence to the insistence by Republican leaders that tax cuts, more tax cuts, and deeper tax cuts are the remedy to our economic woes? Why are they not laughingstocks? It is one thing for Fox News to treat these policies as successful, but what of the rest of what Sarah Palin calls with some justification the "lamestream media," who treat these policies as worthy ideas?

The Republican leadership is like the doctors who believed bleeding cured the sick. When physicians bled George Washington, he got worse, so they increased the treatment until they bled him to death. Our government, the basis of our freedoms, is spewing red ink, and the Republican solution is to spill ever more.

Those who ignore evidence and pledge blind faith in policy based on ideological fantasy are little different from the clerics who made Galileo Galilei confess that the sun revolves around the earth. The Capitol Hill and media Republicans differ only in not threatening death to those who deny their dogma.

How much more evidence do we need that we made terrible and costly mistakes in 2001 and 2003?

LMAO

the stimulus worked? only a fool believes that, there is absolutely no evidence to support such a wild ASSertion

i don't think even half the stimulus has been spent

and last i checked, economists are saying TARP worked, not the stimulus
 
LMAO

the stimulus worked? only a fool believes that, there is absolutely no evidence to support such a wild ASSertion

i don't think even half the stimulus has been spent

and last i checked, economists are saying TARP worked, not the stimulus

Yes it worked.

Check out our other sites: Political Dictionary and Political Job Hunt

May 26, 2010

Stimulus Package Worked Better Than Projected
The $800 billion economic stimulus package signed into law early last year "has had a slightly bigger effect on the U.S. economy than was projected when it was passed more than a year ago," the Wall Street Journal reports.

"Through the first quarter of 2010, the stimulus boosted employment by an estimated 1.3 million to 2.8 million jobs, about a quarter or half million more than projected. Gross domestic product was 1.7 to 4.1 percentage points higher than it would have been without the stimulus."
 
Last edited:
Yes it worked.

Check out our other sites: Political Dictionary and Political Job Hunt

May 26, 2010

Stimulus Package Worked Better Than Projected
The $800 billion economic stimulus package signed into law early last year "has had a slightly bigger effect on the U.S. economy than was projected when it was passed more than a year ago," the Wall Street Journal reports.

"Through the first quarter of 2010, the stimulus boosted employment by an estimated 1.3 million to 2.8 million jobs, about a quarter or half million more than projected. Gross domestic product was 1.7 to 4.1 percentage points higher than it would have been without the stimulus."

LOL....and those numbers come from the obama admin right

lmao...kook
 
LOL....and those numbers come from the obama admin right

lmao...kook

The Wall Street Journal is part of the Obama administration? WOW, does Rupert Murdoch know about this?

So far Yurt, all you have been able to come up with on 2 consecutive threads is telling us what you feel...


"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
 
The Wall Street Journal is part of the Obama administration? WOW, does Rupert Murdoch know about this?

So far Yurt, all you have been able to come up with on 2 consecutive threads is telling us what you feel...


"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

give me the link to the article
 
true, i did not mean to imply i think it is a zero sum situation...i will say though, that your example above, while true, is not the answer....how many tunnels can the government build? how many bridges to nowhere should the government build just to "create" jobs?

There are lots of worthwhile projects large and small that the government could invest in to create private sector growth.


why do you believe that?

Because it's true:

AN ECONOMY only has so much in the way of real resources. At a given moment, there are only so many people available to work and only so much capital that can be used in production. If an economy is operating at capacity and the government wants to expand what it's doing, say by going to war, it must begin utilising real resources that are already being deployed elsewhere. It can do this by borrowing. The increase in demand for capital will push up interest rates, making the private sector less interested in investing and freeing up capital resources for the government. Or it can hire away workers, pushing up wages, reducing private sector hiring, and freeing up the labour resources for the government.

These processes are generally called "crowding out", and they represent worrisome economic shifts. When expanded government activity generates increased interest rates, that's a sign that the activity is coming at the direct expense of private sector expansion, and society should think very, very carefully about the return to that increased government activity. It might nonetheless be worthwhile—defending the nation from attack would fall into this category—but in general it probably means that the government should find ways to reduce wasteful aspects of its demands on the economy.

But what if an economy isn't running at capacity? What if there are millions of workers sitting around without jobs and hundreds of billions in capital sitting around earning almost nothing in the safest securities firms can find? Well obviously, in that case, expanded government activity would not crowd out private activity. On the contrary, increased government demand should actually increase private activity, because the dollars spent by the government will be recycled as workers use their wages to buy private goods and services.

Now, one should be somewhat cautious in ramping up government spending. The increase should be temporary; as private sector activity ramps up, government spending should pull back. And one should be careful to minimise negative knock on effects (war is costly, etc). But generally speaking, crowding out isn't a problem when there is massive slack in the economy.

Casey Mulligan seems not to know this. Worse still, he seems willing to grasp at the most ridiculous examples to argue otherwise. Today, he says:

The Great Depression began in 1929 and lasted too long. Stimulus advocates tell us that the government spending surge that occurred as a result of our joining the war is the primary reason the Great Depression eventually ended.The chart below shows the civilian unemployment rate from 1929 through 1941. With the exception of the last 24 days of 1941, the United States was not at war during those years, and its real government purchases were less than a third of what they would be during the war. Yet the unemployment rate had already come down sharply by the end of this period.

This is already an embarassing performance by Mr Mulligan. First, "stimulus advocates" tell us lots of things, including that large deficits were working to increase output prior to the "recession within a depression" in 1938", that monetary policy is important, and so on. While America didn't officially enter the war until after the attack on Pearl Harbor, but American deficits began rising before that—as early as 1939. And by the end of 1941, the American unemployment rate remained arond 10%.

Thereafter, of course, it fell dramatically. By 1944, unemployment in America was essentially nil. Mr Mulligan complains about this:

Nor did wartime military spending expand the private sector. Many parts of the private sector shrank during the war precisely because the government was spending so much.

Mr Mulligan may not be aware of this, but during the Second World War, private economic activity was subject to strict rationing, and much of the manufacturing sector was mobilised for direct production of military equipment. I don't really know what more to say about this. If deficit spending in America were combined with strict rationing of consumer goods and orders that General Motors begin churning out tanks, then yes, I suppose private sector activity would contract.

Obviously, at some point fiscal spending will generate crowding out; America's current output gap isn't limitless. But American government spending is nowhere near the crowding out point, as evidenced by the rock bottom levels of yields on government debt (and the unemployment rate, and the estimated output gap, and levels of private saving).

So when people begin proposing new stimulus plans upwards of $5 trillion in size, we can then begin worrying about crowding out. For now, paying attention to Mr Mulligan is an utter waste of time.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/fiscal_policy_4



government spending and jobs have little to do with our trade deficits....we need to change our relationships with other countries and if that means changing our trade policies, then let's do it

i never claimed there was a correlation, you pulled that out of your cochese ass


Your post seemed to imply it. Sorry if I misunderstood. I don't think protectionism is the answer though.
 
UOTE=NigelTufnel;714096]There are lots of worthwhile projects large and small that the government could invest in to create private sector growth.

and again, they are all temporary, hence why you avoided answering my questions....



i wouldn't call an opinion the truth, but the article does raise interesting points and i'm too lazy to counter your article....point to nigel





Your post seemed to imply it. Sorry if I misunderstood. I don't think protectionism is the answer though.

i think we are again disagreeing on terms....what exactly do you mean by protectionism? many people have espoused many different definitions of this term....with that said, why is it youi don't support fixing our trade imbalances? you haven't said that outright, but your comment above, to me, indicates you are fine with our current trade imbalances as my opinion is not the answer.....
 
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