Why Socialism?

[Timshel]

It doesn't have to lead to more immigration. Immigration can be controlled and domestic makets kept intact and responsive. Just because you believe in manipulating labor markets by changing immmigration policy doesn't mean labor markets aren't like other markets. All markets can be manipulated and usually are.

Huh? Government barriers on the movement of labor is an example of, "not manipulating the market?" Really? So more government interference is less?

It will lead to higher immigration. Government attempts to manipulate the market by erecting barriers to prevent people from moving, would be circumvented, to some extent. Yes, it could be limited to a small amount at great expense. But, that would only exacerbate the problem with prices on food rising to a level that made a healthy diet a near luxury. Of course, people would have to forgo many things in order to just buy food. Then, eventually, educational pursuits would decline as more and more people dropped out to take jobs doing back breaking farm labor.

Apparently, it makes you all warm and fuzzy thinking about Americans working in drudgery and miserable poverty.

As a fascist you're just hostile to labor, and so pretend they're somehow intrinsically different.

Yes, by allowing laborers to find the highest wage possible I am against labor.

We get nothing but double speak from you.

Stringfield, don't pretend you're not just as on board with destroying america with globalization as she is. You should listen to some of your own advice about globalization and trade imbalance. I know you have to pretend you;re worlds apart for show, but i love watching you wiggle. You both are on the same side of the debate, as much as you like to deny it.

No, there are many differences and in the end Apple is a statist/socialist like you.

Apple, like you, seems to mistakenly believe that wealth is static.

Another important difference, the capital surplus is largely encouraged through government debt. Unchecked, IT will lead to a reckoning. I certainly do not support that continuing.

Those parts of our trade deficit that are financed through greater stability in investments are sustainable, so long as morons do not destroy that stability by nationalizing industry and/or destroying property rights. But hate mongering morons like yourself threaten that stability as well by fomenting witch hunts against immigrants and minority religious groups.

 

[Based Chad]

Huh? Government barriers on the movement of labor is an example of, "not manipulating the market?" Really? So more government interference is less?

Border enforcement is a traditional manipulation of the labor market. Enforcing border is a core function of government, to keep resources for citizens, one of those being jobs. Doing away with border enforcement is just a different manipulation of the labor market. No markets are truly free, they're all maniplated. Your form of anti-citizen manipulation is the new one, however, a symptom of globalist brainwashedness.

It will lead to higher immigration. Government attempts to manipulate the market by erecting barriers to prevent people from moving, would be circumvented, to some extent.

And internationalist fascists manipulate the labor market by pretending that borders which protects citizens are some how immoral.

Like i said. All markets are manipulated. You just pretend that your manipulations are somehow more moral. They aren't. They're a betrayal of citizens by governments contolled by internationalist fascists like yourself.

Yes, it could be limited to a small amount at great expense. But, that would only exacerbate the problem with prices on food rising to a level that made a healthy diet a near luxury. Of course, people would have to forgo many things in order to just buy food. Then, eventually, educational pursuits would decline as more and more people dropped out to take jobs doing back breaking farm labor.

Wrong. Stop fear mongering. We would just stop paying farmers not to grow food. And technology would help. And we would have much more employment here.

Apparently, it makes you all warm and fuzzy thinking about Americans working in drudgery and miserable poverty.



Yes, by allowing laborers to find the highest wage possible I am against labor.

Actually the proper framing is that you want to allow corporations to find the cheapest labor. They're perfectly willing to us wage slave labor. This merely degrades the living standard in america. It's not enlightend. It's not inevitable, it's not smart, it's just traitorous.

We get nothing but double speak from you.



No, there are many differences and in the end Apple is a statist/socialist like you.

Im not a socialist, but i feel goverments have a role to play in seeing after the well being of their citizens regarding trade relations. You believe governments should act to enrichen multinationals only. You're a traitor. Im not.

Apple, like you, seems to mistakenly believe that wealth is static.

I don't believe wealth is static. But i do know globalization is destroying america.

Another important difference, the capital surplus is largely encouraged through government debt. Unchecked, IT will lead to a reckoning. I certainly do not support that continuing.

They have that loose fiscal policy precisely to hide how globalization is destroying the real economy.

Those parts of our trade deficit that are financed through greater stability in investments are sustainable, so long as morons do not destroy that stability by nationalizing industry and/or destroying property rights. But hate mongering morons like yourself threaten that stability as well by fomenting witch hunts against immigrants and minority religious groups.

I don't hate anyone, i merely reject your globalist idiocy. And my arguments are blowing your brainwashed ass out of the water.

Suck it.

 

[Timshel]

Border enforcement is a traditional manipulation of the labor market.

Not here.

Enforcing border is a core function of government, to keep resources for citizens, one of those being jobs.

Wrong again. Our founders never maintained any such nonsense. It may be a core function under the philosophies of Nazi's, but not in our liberal/libertarian nation.

Doing away with border enforcement is just a different manipulation of the labor market. No markets are truly free, they're all maniplated. Your form of anti-citizen manipulation is the new one, however, a symptom of globalist brainwashedness.

Mmmhmmm... By not interfering the government is interfering. That's just a bs rationalization for REAL fascism.

And internationalist fascists manipulate the labor market by pretending that borders which protects citizens are some how immoral.

Like i said. All markets are manipulated. You just pretend that your manipulations are somehow more moral. They aren't. They're a betrayal of citizens by governments contolled by internationalist fascists like yourself.

Name one manipulation of the market I enthusiastically support, other than your convoluted horse shit where a lack of government action represents government intervention.

Wrong. Stop fear mongering. We would just stop paying farmers not to grow food. And technology would help. And we would have much more employment here.

Who says? It's foolish to expect that a government intervention will just disappear.

Actually the proper framing is that you want to allow corporations to find the cheapest labor. They're perfectly willing to us wage slave labor. This merely degrades the living standard in america. It's not enlightend. It's not inevitable, it's not smart, it's just traitorous.

They already can and do do that. Your interventions just to lead to more and more interventions to prop up bad policies.

Im not a socialist, but i feel goverments have a role to play in seeing after the well being of their citizens regarding trade relations. You believe governments should act to enrichen multinationals only. You're a traitor. Im not.

I don't believe wealth is static. But i do know globalization is destroying america.

They have that loose fiscal policy precisely to hide how globalization is destroying the real economy.


I don't hate anyone, i merely reject your globalist idiocy. And my arguments are blowing your brainwashed ass out of the water.

Suck it.

You are a socialist. The hate mongering variety, i.e., a fascist or Nazi.

 

[Based Chad]

Not here.

Sure it is. We have borders and immigration quotas.

Wrong again. Our founders never maintained any such nonsense. It may be a core function under the philosophies of Nazi's, but not in our liberal/libertarian nation.

So the concept of borders is nazi? I don't think so. Just because recently the feds have abandoned their duty, doesn't mean having bordes is nazi. You're all fucked in the head.

Mmmhmmm... By not interfering the government is interfering. That's just a bs rationalization for REAL fascism.

Fascism is collusion between government and business, not border enforcement. By shirking it's duty the government is interfering with the traditional labor market protections of functioning and enforced border policy.

Name one manipulation of the market I enthusiastically support, other than your convoluted horse shit where a lack of government action represents government intervention.

You support manipulation of the labor market by having larger immigration quotas, no border enforcment and more h1-b visas, do you not?

You've been defeated again, internationalist fascist brainwash victim.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The cost of just about everything has come down since the 70's, except for college, medical care and housing (three areas in which the government is heavily involved in fucking shit up).

Then why are medical costs so much lower in so many countries where the government is more heavily involved?

+housebuilding technology hasn't improved much. The only thing that's really changed on that front is that there's more competition for labor from other sectors. Of course costs are going up.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

That is the adjustment. A different problem exists in countries like China and India. For example, ".....China is still poor on an income per person basis. Average income for city dwellers in 2009 was 18,858 yuan ($2,700), while in the populous countryside it was just 5,153 yuan ($752)." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/21/china-on-path-to-become-s_n_431189.html)

While it's great the average Chinese wage is increasing it will take time for things to balance in their country as well as balance on the world stage.

What other way do you suggest the balance be carried out here? How do we level the playing field?

Chinese GDP per capita in 2008 is 3,200. I have no idea where you're getting your numbers.

 

[Timshel]

Then why are medical costs so much lower in so many countries where the government is more heavily involved?

I can't answer without more specificity. Not all forms of involvement are equal. For instance, many of the European nations do not have the same tort problems that we do, which creates a large amount of waste.

Further, there are also countries with less government involvement and lower healthcare costs. Contrasting it to other countries is apples to oranges, while comparing these goods against others within the same market raises questions about why costs are skyrocketing here but not in other areas.

+housebuilding technology hasn't improved much. The only thing that's really changed on that front is that there's more competition for labor from other sectors. Of course costs are going up.

That might work for housing, but doctors and college professors?

Housing costs, last I checked, have been kind of flat once you adjust for sq ftg and take out the bubbles. It probably would be down if not for government interference.

 

[Based Chad]

Not here.



Wrong again. Our founders never maintained any such nonsense. It may be a core function under the philosophies of Nazi's, but not in our liberal/libertarian nation.

Border enforcment is a function of the federal government, your globalist brainwash aside. And we have had differeing policies of immigration depending on domestic need. It's not naziism to enforce borders and the current immigration policy.

Mmmhmmm... By not interfering the government is interfering. That's just a bs rationalization for REAL fascism.

You misunderstand.

By shirking it's duty to enforce border and immigration quotas, the government is manipulating the labor market, in favor of corporations.

In the new normal and the shrinking economy globalists have planned for america, more immigration just gluts the labor pool, driving wages and standard of living downward.

Name one manipulation of the market I enthusiastically support, other than your convoluted horse shit where a lack of government action represents government intervention.

You enthusiastically support amnesty, open borders, outsourcing, h1b's etcetara, anything that gluts labor and drives the standard of living down. You support these meausues enthusiatically.

Who says? It's foolish to expect that a government intervention will just disappear.

We're talking about protectionism and jobs. These government interventions increase domestic employment, despite you brainwash victim hysterical denials.

They already can and do do that. Your interventions just to lead to more and more interventions to prop up bad policies.

No. they save americans from the traitourousness you insist is freedom.

You are a socialist. The hate mongering variety, i.e., a fascist or Nazi.

Im not a socialist. I just believe the government has a role in sculpting trade policy, and that it should do so in a way which makes the standard of living better for americans, not in away that sacrifices them of the altar of internationalist fascism which you claim is freedom.

You're busted again, idiot-child.

Stop being so dense.

 

[Timshel]

Sure it is. We have borders and immigration quotas.

Significant barriers to immigrants is not a tradition in this nation. We are and always have been a nation that encourages immigration.

You should take your sorry ass back to Europe or wherever your loser clan is from, so that you can celebrate such traditions without lying.

So the concept of borders is nazi? I don't think so. Just because recently the feds have abandoned their duty, doesn't mean having bordes is nazi. You're all fucked in the head.

Straw man. No one said borders were nazi, moron. You claimed that preventing peaceful people from moving freely is a core function of government. Not according to any of our founding documents or the supporting literature. I know that you think that Hitler and Jefferson were contemporaries, but no....

Fascism is collusion between government and business, not border enforcement. By shirking it's duty the government is interfering with the traditional labor market protections of functioning and enforced border policy.

You support manipulation of the labor market by having larger immigration quotas, no border enforcment and more h1-b visas, do you not?

You've been defeated again, internationalist fascist brainwash victim.

Again, what tradition are you talking about? We have always had relatively open borders and still do. You continue with these delusions about our history in order to support your absurd claims that a lack of government interference is really government interference.

I don't support h1-b visas. I support allowing them to come freely with full rights to bargain for the best wage possible.

 

[Based Chad]

Significant barriers to immigrants is not a tradition in this nation. We are and always have been a nation that encourages immigration.

It is a tradition. we have had immigration quotas for a long time. We have modulated immigration quotas according to need.

And america aside, just having enforced borders is not nazi-ism. That's just part of your globalization brainwashedness showing again.

You should take your sorry ass back to Europe or wherever your loser clan is from, so that you can celebrate such traditions without lying.

We actually have quotas that are being violated right now. And we have had immigration quotas in the past. These are to give citizens the labor market protections they deserve as citizens. Your assertion that immigration quotas a) have never existed and b) are naziism, just illustrates the degree of your globalist brainwash disorder.

Straw man. No one said borders were nazi, moron. You claimed that preventing peaceful people from moving freely is a core function of government. Not according to any of our founding documents or the supporting literature. I know that you think that Hitler and Jefferson were contemporaries, but no....

YOu said it, you douche. Border enforcement is core function of government, actually. It's true. Your revised notion of government is just further evidence of how you've been brainwashed by internationalist fascists.

Again, what tradition are you talking about? We have always had relatively open borders and still do. You continue with these delusions about our history in order to support your absurd claims that a lack of government interference is really government interference.

I don't support h1-b visas. I support allowing them to come freely with full rights to bargain for the best wage possible.

NO. We have had immigration quotas for sometime now, as we should.

Your globalization brainwash notion of government has been rejected, it will not succeed in any way.

 

[Timshel]

What did you want to double up on the lies and dishonest propaganda, nAHZi?

 

[DamnYankee]

You're such a Dick.

 

[Based Chad]

What did you want to double up on the lies and dishonest propaganda, nAHZi?

This rebuttal is, again, ineffective. You stand defeated, soaked in your own fear induced puddle of pee pee and poo poo.

 

[Timshel]

Is this the one I should respond to or are you going to take another crack at it later?

It is a tradition. we have had immigration quotas for a long time. We have modulated immigration quotas according to need.

And america aside, just having enforced borders is not nazi-ism. That's just part of your globalization brainwashedness showing again.

Again, the notion that prohibiting immigration is a CORE function of government is not a part of our heritage or tradition. You are employing an obvious straw man to try to back away from your bullshit and lies.

Immigration quotas did not become a CORE function of government until vile bigots used them to bar Chinese immigrants. There were grumblings before that about those, "swarthy" Europeans and the Irish.

Once they began (somehow we survived with a government that had no core for a 100 years), our immigration policies have been dictated by bigotry, not any need. You rats started hiding behind socialist rhetoric after blatant discrimination was no longer politically viable.

We actually have quotas that are being violated right now. And we have had immigration quotas in the past. These are to give citizens the labor market protections they deserve as citizens. Your assertion that immigration quotas a) have never existed and b) are naziism, just illustrates the degree of your globalist brainwash disorder.

LOL. What is the point when you continue to just make shit up. I did not argue that we never had immigration policies. That is plainly a lie.

YOu said it, you douche.

Nope. You can easily find the quote as it was only a few posts back. My comment concerned your claim that it was a core function of government.

 

[Based Chad]

Is this the one I should respond to or are you going to take another crack at it later?



Again, the notion that prohibiting immigration is a CORE function of government is not a part of our heritage or tradition. You are employing an obvious straw man to try to back away from your bullshit and lies.

It is a core function of government. And we have always had quotas, your globalist revisionism notwithstanding.

Immigration quotas did not become a CORE function of government until vile bigots used them to bar Chinese immigrants. There were grumblings before that about those, "swarthy" Europeans and the Irish.

Do you have anything besides name-calling and smearing.

Once they began (somehow we survived with a government that had no core for a 100 years), our immigration policies have been dictated by bigotry, not any need. You rats started hiding behind socialist rhetoric after blatant discrimination was no longer politically viable.

It's true there was not a conern about immigration in the early days, as we were gearing up to colonize a continent. But the government still had the RIGHT to enforce immigration quotas. These times are different, we're a new normal, and citizens deserve the right to enforcement of the QUOTAS THAT ARE CURRENTLY ON THE BOOKS. You can keep asserting that your globalist dogma is the proper way to think, but it's merely a mental derangement, a result of many years of internationalist fascist brainwashing. I pity your degraded mental state.

LOL. What is the point when you continue to just make shit up. I did not argue that we never had immigration policies. That is plainly a lie.

That what you said. You said it's our tradition to not have immigration quotas.

Nope. You can easily find the quote as it was only a few posts back. My comment concerned your claim that it was a core function of government.

It is a core function of government, as it should be.

 

[Timshel]

It is a core function of government. And we have always had quotas, your globalist revisionism notwithstanding.

We always had immigration quotas? You sure want to go with that? It's not true.

Do you have anything besides name-calling and smearing.

Let's see I point out the fact that our immigration quotas had nothing to do with labor needs and was instead entirely based on discrimination against different ethnic groups/races and that offends the guy who's every third sentence includes the charge that I am "internationalist nationalist?" It all makes sense because it's coming from a little bitch, like asshat.

It's true there was not a conern about immigration in the early days, as we were gearing up to colonize a continent. But the government still had the RIGHT to enforce immigration quotas. These times are different, we're a new normal, and citizens deserve the right to enforcement of the QUOTAS THAT ARE CURRENTLY ON THE BOOKS. You can keep asserting that your globalist dogma is the proper way to think, but it's merely a mental derangement, a result of many years of internationalist fascist brainwashing. I pity your degraded mental state.

Our founders wrote nothing about the "rights" of government to bar people from moving here. They would have never even uttered a word concerning the "rights" of government, you moron.

That what you said. You said it's our tradition to not have immigration quotas.

I said our tradition is one of generally welcoming immigration. You claimed that I was saying that we have never had immigration quotas. Of course, we have, moron. They exist now. They were not a pillar of our founding as you claim. They came about initially as a bigoted reaction to Asian immigrants, not because Asian immigrants created some imbalance in the labor pool. They did not bother disguising their bigotry back then. Now you scumbags have to hide behind bad economics, but that was not always the case.

Your presentation is nothing but lies, distortion and revisionism.

It is a core function of government, as it should be

Nope. Not according to our intellectual heritage. Hitler was not one of our founders, no matter how much you wish he were.

 

[apple0154]

AssHat, you do come across as a Socialist when you write things like, "We're talking about protectionism and jobs. These government interventions increase domestic employment, despite you brainwash victim hysterical denials." (Msg 48).

Let's say an item can be imported and purchased for $100.00 and the same item, made here, is selling for $150.00. Why not buy the item for $100.00 and give the guy who lives here $50.00, for doing nothing? It works out to the same cost for you.

Now, let's say you give the guy $50.00, for nothing. And the next person who buys that product also gives the guy $50.00, for nothing. Soon the guy will have a livable wage, right? Now the guy can go to school and learn a different skill. Why insist the guy work and produce a product that will cost more?

Now, let's look at the bigger picture. Because people can purchase TVs and appliances and clothes, etc. and save money they can afford to give that money towards taxes. Then, in turn, the government gives that money to the guy who is unemployed so he can learn a new trade.

Insisting on buying products made here so someone has a job is the same thing as a sheltered workshop, those places where the mentally disadvantaged work.

It's not about having a job. It's about having money. Whether you make the guy work to produce an item for $150.00 or you buy one for $100.00 and give the guy $50.00, it's all the same to you. At least it should be but many people are so jealous they just can't wrap their minds around the logic. Even if they gave the guy $25.00 and saved $25.00 it would kill them to give someone $25.00 for nothing. They can't see past their nose.

It's the same nonsense when it comes to automation. If a machine can produce an item cheaper than a person and the person loses their job, GREAT! That's what it's all about. Advancement. Just like we don't see people digging ditches with a pick and shovel any more.

We both believe in social policies. You, by insisting we have to pay $150.00 for a product so someone has a job. Me, by saying we should buy the product for $100.00 and just give the $50.00 to the unemployed guy.

So, what is the difference? The difference is, as RStringfield explained, you like to see your fellow man sweat. I prefer to spend the money on retraining, enabling the guy to get a job where he doesn't feel he's simply putting in time doing a boring, monotonous job. Or allow him to volunteer or increase his general education.

Not only would that benefit him but society, as well.

By the way, weren't you the fella with the avatar face with the black eyes? I liked that face. I found it humorous.

 

[Based Chad]

We always had immigration quotas? You sure want to go with that? It's not true.

We have in the modern era. And when we didn't, we still had right to have them even if the government determined it wasn't a priority. Having immigration controls is and always has been a core function of government, even if the government has chosen at certain times to have high quotas.

In this era, the citizens deserve protections on the labor market, and it is within the power of the federal government to give them these. Now, if they would just let go of the internationalist fascist brainwashing, maybe they will enforce the quotas we have on the books currently.

Let's see I point out the fact that our immigration quotas had nothing to do with labor needs and was instead entirely based on discrimination against different ethnic groups/races and that offends the guy who's every third sentence includes the charge that I am "internationalist nationalist?" It all makes sense because it's coming from a little bitch, like asshat.

But you're wrong. when the economy contracts, citizens urge a change in the immigration policy to protect the labor markets and their standard of living, as they are reasonable to do. And the government responds accordingly.

Our founders wrote nothing about the "rights" of government to bar people from moving here. They would have never even uttered a word concerning the "rights" of government, you moron.

It's responsibility of government to defend the borders from invasion.

I said our tradition is one of generally welcoming immigration. You claimed that I was saying that we have never had immigration quotas. Of course, we have, moron. They exist now. They were not a pillar of our founding as you claim. They came about initially as a bigoted reaction to Asian immigrants, not because Asian immigrants created some imbalance in the labor pool. They did not bother disguising their bigotry back then. Now you scumbags have to hide behind bad economics, but that was not always the case.

Nobody's HIDING. Economics has always been the motivation.

Your presentation is nothing but lies, distortion and revisionism.

Your presentation is nothing but lies, distortion and revionism, and stupidity, and being a cunt face.

Nope. Not according to our intellectual heritage. Hitler was not one of our founders, no matter how much you wish he were.

Border enforcement against invasion is always a core function of every government. All around the planet. Your globalization revisionism and distortion is just stupidity.

 

[apple0154]

Your presentation is nothing but lies, distortion and revionism, and stupidity, and being a cunt face.

Now that's got to be politically incorrect! :eek3:

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We have in the modern era. And when we didn't, we still had right to have them even if the government determined it wasn't a priority. Having immigration controls is and always has been a core function of government, even if the government has chosen at certain times to have high quotas.

In this era, the citizens deserve protections on the labor market, and it is within the power of the federal government to give them these. Now, if they would just let go of the internationalist fascist brainwashing, maybe they will enforce the quotas we have on the books currently.

But you're wrong. when the economy contracts, citizens urge a change in the immigration policy to protect the labor markets and their standard of living, as they are reasonable to do. And the government responds accordingly.

It's responsibility of government to defend the borders from invasion.

Nobody's HIDING. Economics has always been the motivation.

Your presentation is nothing but lies, distortion and revionism, and stupidity, and being a cunt face.



Border enforcement against invasion is always a core function of every government. All around the planet. Your globalization revisionism and distortion is just stupidity.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Now that's got to be politically incorrect! :eek3:

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He is really a very odd fellow, on our side of the pond, what's called Socialism in the US is known as the mixed economy.

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