Democratic Socialist Demands Free Housing

You're right because its not fuck face. A moral healthy society requires people with the ability to take care of themselves rather than ehime like twats because other people have more than they do.
You right wingers are so full of shit, it is amazing that you can walk without stinking. Although I suspect you do stink.
Fact is dick mouth people who invest the most to create things whether a product or a service are entitled to the lions share of the profit. No one is required to work for an amount of money they find did satisfactory and whining the others have more than you is not a compelling argument.
Yes, yes, yes. Keep spouting that bullshit you are required to spew. It will make your masters very happy. They may reward you by petting you.
 
Well, since I am not bitching about it like a little girl, you should have no expectations of me.

Anyway, I have lots of ideas about how to tackle it. Very complicated problem...with very complicated ideas about how best to proceed. Why would I waste time telling you about it since you are a moron?

Fuck you very much. Good to see your are paying attention.
Someone has an emotional boo boo
 
You right wingers are so full of shit, it is amazing that you can walk without stinking. Although I suspect you do stink.

Yes, yes, yes. Keep spouting that bullshit you are required to spew. It will make your masters very happy. They may reward you by petting you.
So you still can't tell me why a worker is entitled to anything more than his voluntarily agreed upon salary other than, it's not fair
 
So you still can't tell me why a worker is entitled to anything more than his voluntarily agreed upon salary other than, it's not fair
I have not said he is entitled to it.

I am saying in a sane world...with the plenty that we have...no person should have anything less than sufficient.

Then, as happens with MAGA morons almost always, you change the wording to make it seem something else has been said.

Sorry you have to live that life you are living. So much anger...so much scorn...so much hatred. It must be a terrible chore living it.

Know that I pity you.
 
I have not said he is entitled to it.

I am saying in a sane world...with the plenty that we have...no person should have anything less than sufficient.

Then, as happens with MAGA morons almost always, you change the wording to make it seem something else has been said.

Sorry you have to live that life you are living. So much anger...so much scorn...so much hatred. It must be a terrible chore living it.

Know that I pity you.
We don't disagree that people should have anything less than sufficient. Where we disagree is how that should be accomplished. One problem is you can't even tell me what "sufficient" which which means we don't even know what we're trying to accomplish. Next it seems that you want to put the responsibility on people like business owners to ensure others have what's "sufficient" but without any coherent argument why.

Know that I don't pity you but find you utterly putrid in person and character
 
We don't disagree that people should have anything less than sufficient.

Great. Maybe we can reach some kind of understanding even if you keep allowing me to upset you so.
Where we disagree is how that should be accomplished.

Not sure why you think that. I have no idea of how you would want to see it accomplished...and you have repeatedly said that you do not know how I would either.

So this, by your words, seem an absurdity.

One problem is you can't even tell me what "sufficient" which which means we don't even know what we're trying to accomplish.

Another reason why your comment above makes no sense.

CAN YOU CALM DOWN FOR A BIT AND MAYBE WE CAN DISCUSS THIS REASONABLY.

Next it seems that you want to put the responsibility on people like business owners to ensure others have what's "sufficient" but without any coherent argument why.

Stop inventing things you suppose I am saying and deal with what I actually say. I HAVE NEVER, HERE OR ANYWHERE ELSE, EVER SAID I WANT TO PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY ON PEOPLE LIKE BUSINESS OWNERS.
Know that I don't pity you but find you utterly putrid in person and character
Okay, fair enough. You do not pity me...and I now know that. You find me to be utterly putrid in person and character...and I now know that.

I am not crazy about you or your character either/.

But if we both can put that aside and actually have a reasonable conversation about this...we might help in some small way with a problem it appears we both see. I can put it all aside. Will you?
 
Great. Maybe we can reach some kind of understanding even if you keep allowing me to upset you so.


Not sure why you think that. I have no idea of how you would want to see it accomplished...and you have repeatedly said that you do not know how I would either.

So this, by your words, seem an absurdity.



Another reason why your comment above makes no sense.

CAN YOU CALM DOWN FOR A BIT AND MAYBE WE CAN DISCUSS THIS REASONABLY.



Stop inventing things you suppose I am saying and deal with what I actually say. I HAVE NEVER, HERE OR ANYWHERE ELSE, EVER SAID I WANT TO PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY ON PEOPLE LIKE BUSINESS OWNERS.

Okay, fair enough. You do not pity me...and I now know that. You find me to be utterly putrid in person and character...and I now know that.

I am not crazy about you or your character either/.

But if we both can put that aside and actually have a reasonable conversation about this...we might help in some small way with a problem it appears we both see. I can put it all aside. Will you?
You don't upset me your stupidity does.

Unless you tell me what "sufficient" means this is meaningless. If we don't know that we cant ever know that we've reached the goal. Let's start there and see what happens
 
You don't upset me your stupidity does.
I hereby acknowledge that I do not upset you...but my stupidity does.

Unless you tell me what "sufficient" means this is meaningless. If we don't know that we cant ever know that we've reached the goal. Let's start there and see what happens
Okay, discussing what we mean with the word "sufficient" in this discussion makes lots of sense, so allow me to make some comments on it.

I'll start with noticing that it is a changing concept. What was "sufficient" in 1910 in America is much different from what was "sufficient" in 1950...and, for a variety of reasons, what is "sufficient" in 2026 should probably be considered quite different from what was sufficient in the 1950's.

And, seeing that "everyone has sufficient" has to be seen on a graduating scale. To conceive of "everyone having sufficient"...and to think of it as the result of a single effort or action on the part of government or social constructs...is more in the realm of science fiction than reality. We will have to work incrementally to that point.

But with that in mind...ultimately, what I mean by sufficient is approximately what a life is like if a single person were earning enough in today's dollars to cover basic necessities like food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare." (Suggested to be about $40,000 or slightly more in some states.)

That ain't gonna happen for a long while...but it is my opinion we have to start aiming for it to happen to ever achieve it. And the way things are going with the machines and AI...we are going to need it sooner than we think.
 
I hereby acknowledge that I do not upset you...but my stupidity does.


Okay, discussing what we mean with the word "sufficient" in this discussion makes lots of sense, so allow me to make some comments on it.

I'll start with noticing that it is a changing concept. What was "sufficient" in 1910 in America is much different from what was "sufficient" in 1950...and, for a variety of reasons, what is "sufficient" in 2026 should probably be considered quite different from what was sufficient in the 1950's.

And, seeing that "everyone has sufficient" has to be seen on a graduating scale. To conceive of "everyone having sufficient"...and to think of it as the result of a single effort or action on the part of government or social constructs...is more in the realm of science fiction than reality. We will have to work incrementally to that point.

But with that in mind...ultimately, what I mean by sufficient is approximately what a life is like if a single person were earning enough in today's dollars to cover basic necessities like food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare." (Suggested to be about $40,000 or slightly more in some states.)

That ain't gonna happen for a long while...but it is my opinion we have to start aiming for it to happen to ever achieve it. And the way things are going with the machines and AI...we are going to need it sooner than we think.
Ok so we're finally getting somewhere. Let's work with the idea that $40,000 for a single person is "sufficient" to cover their "basic necessities". Those terms in quotation marks are still vague and I don't know how or who decides them but that's not my immediate concern. What concerns me is how we work toward making sure, in this case, that every single person has $40,000 for their "basic necessities".
 
Ok so we're finally getting somewhere. Let's work with the idea that $40,000 for a single person is "sufficient" it cover their "basic necessities". Those terms in quotation marks are still vague and I don't know how or who decides them but that's not my immediate concern. What concerns me is how we work toward making sure, in this case, that every single person has $40,000.
In my opinion, we don't. What we want to do is to give each person the equivalent of that much purchasing power...which is not the same thing. Actually, it resolves itself into a distribution problem. If we just give them the money, most will be grifted out of it or use it for things other than the necessities of life.

Better minds than mine will have to figure out how to make that work.

Essentially, we want each person to have enough to meet essentials...then allow each person (who wants to) compete for jobs. That way, they can money to obtain those extras many people want for attending ball games, concerts, finer clothes, better transportation...or becoming billionaires.
 
In my opinion, we don't. What we want to do is to give each person the equivalent of that much purchasing power...which is not the same thing. Actually, it resolves itself into a distribution problem. If we just give them the money, most will be grifted out of it or use it for things other than the necessities of life.

Better minds than mine will have to figure out how to make that work.

Essentially, we want each person to have enough to meet essentials...then allow each person (who wants to) compete for jobs. That way, they can money to obtain those extras many people want for attending ball games, concerts, finer clothes, better transportation...or becoming billionaires.
One thing that sets off my radar is "Actually, it resolves itself into a distribution problem." I need to hear your thoughts on that.

Are people, who want to, not able to compete for jobs now? I need more info on that as well.
 
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One thing that sets off my radar is "Actually, it resolves itself into a distribution problem." I need to hear your thoughts on that.

I am going to give the simple answer to this question. Please follow up with additional questions if this does not satisfy what you want to know about my position.

RESPONSE; We have enough food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, and other essentials for everyone in our country. MORE THAN ENOUGH...and can easily increase that bounty. The problem is not that we do not have enough...the problem is that distributing the "enough" so that EVERYONE HAS SUFFICIENT has not been resolved. That is what I meant by that.
Are people, who want to, not able to compete for jobs now?

Yes, they are. My point is that if we insure that everyone have sufficient, they still would be able to do so. It is my opinion, I suspect yours also, that being able to compete for a job is VERY beneficial for our economy and for our Republic in general.

I do not want that destroyed because of a desire for everyone having sufficient...and I think it will not be. Just wanted to make sure that notion was realized.

If you have questions on any of these responses, or need further amplification...please ask.


I need more info on that as well.
 
I am going to give the simple answer to this question. Please follow up with additional questions if this does not satisfy what you want to know about my position.

RESPONSE; We have enough food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, and other essentials for everyone in our country. MORE THAN ENOUGH...and can easily increase that bounty. The problem is not that we do not have enough...the problem is that distributing the "enough" so that EVERYONE HAS SUFFICIENT has not been resolved. That is what I meant by that.


Yes, they are. My point is that if we insure that everyone have sufficient, they still would be able to do so. It is my opinion, I suspect yours also, that being able to compete for a job is VERY beneficial for our economy and for our Republic in general.

I do not want that destroyed because of a desire for everyone having sufficient...and I think it will not be. Just wanted to make sure that notion was realized.

If you have questions on any of these responses, or need further amplification...please ask.
Thank you. And the short answer to that response is, there is a cost to producing that "MORE THAN ENOUGH". A question I have for you is, is there a limit on "MORE THAN ENOUGH"? In other words is there a point where there are so many that we no longer have "MORE THAN ENOUGH"?

Another concern for me is the use of the word, "insure" that everyone has sufficient. How? Government dictate? How will it be insured? The concept isn't the problem the execution of the supposed plan to achieve it is. I think jobs are essential to achieving what you describe here, but is there an atmosphere for that? I'm not so sure. I think sometimes the people capable of producing the jobs necessary to achieve your end are vilified. Just my opinion.

The word "insure" appears again and it concerns me even more seeing it again
 
Thank you. And the short answer to that response is, there is a cost to producing that "MORE THAN ENOUGH". A question I have for you is, is there a limit on "MORE THAN ENOUGH"? In other words is there a point where there are so many that we no longer have "MORE THAN ENOUGH"?

I suspect we will never again be in a position where we will not have enough...and more than enough. I MAY BE WRONG. I suspect, from this point on, we humans will always have more than enough for EVERYONE on this planet.

Nature has a way of seeing that no species over-populates. Fertility dies out...or abates. And I think that will be the case with humans also. I certainly hope I am correct about that, but if I am wrong...the problem for humanity will be much greater than "can everyone have the necessities of life." If I am wrong about nature helping us regarding population...then more likely almost NOBODY will have enough.

I think we can leave that aspect for now, though, because we should be able to maintain "enough for everyone" for a considerable amount of time.

Let me get to the rest of your questions a bit later. My wife just got home and I have to go for a while.
Another concern for me is the use of the word, "insure" that everyone has sufficient. How? Government dictate? How will it be insured? The concept isn't the problem the execution of the supposed plan to achieve it is. I think jobs are essential to achieving what you describe here, but is there an atmosphere for that? I'm not so sure. I think sometimes the people capable of producing the jobs necessary to achieve your end are vilified. Just my opinion.

The word "insure" appears again and it concerns me even more seeing it again
 
Thank you. And the short answer to that response is, there is a cost to producing that "MORE THAN ENOUGH". A question I have for you is, is there a limit on "MORE THAN ENOUGH"? In other words is there a point where there are so many that we no longer have "MORE THAN ENOUGH"?

Another concern for me is the use of the word, "insure" that everyone has sufficient. How? Government dictate? How will it be insured? The concept isn't the problem the execution of the supposed plan to achieve it is. I think jobs are essential to achieving what you describe here, but is there an atmosphere for that? I'm not so sure. I think sometimes the people capable of producing the jobs necessary to achieve your end are vilified. Just my opinion.

The word "insure" appears again and it concerns me even more seeing it again
The big problem is when government decides what is enough for everyone. To use a concrete, recent example:

Disclaimer here: NO I am not bashing Michelle Obama here. Anyone could have come up with this plan in government. I am using it solely as an example because it fits the discussion.

School lunches. Michelle Obama rammed through a standardized "healthy" school lunch program while First Lady. It was intended to give every student the same sort of "healthy" lunch at school everyday. Alternatives were to be banned, even forbidden, in the interests of everyone getting the same and enough.

As it went into effect, it quickly crashed and burned. One person's "enough" was insufficient for another. For example, the calories allowed were low as the program was supposed to fight obesity and had to fit all students. So, while this calorie count might have been fine or even generous for a sedentary small female, it was nearly a starvation level diet for a large male athlete. No accounting was made for different needs. Everyone got the same and that was supposed to be "more than enough."

The program also quickly devolved into lunches that were bland, unappetizing, and repetitive. Students often started throwing them out or not eating them to begin with. Black markets arose to replace the lack of food and snacks. Students and teachers started smuggling in junk food, snacks, and other items, now banned by the program, to satisfy student demand for food. Students with means simply paid up and even participated as black marketeers. Those without such means were forced to eat the gruel being served if they wanted a meal.

The whole program was an unmitigated disaster. When government gets to decide for everyone, no one will be satisfied with the outcome.

That's reality. Government is the worst way to do just about anything and should only be used when there is no viable alternative to it.
 
I suspect we will never again be in a position where we will not have enough...and more than enough. I MAY BE WRONG. I suspect, from this point on, we humans will always have more than enough for EVERYONE on this planet.

Nature has a way of seeing that no species over-populates. Fertility dies out...or abates. And I think that will be the case with humans also. I certainly hope I am correct about that, but if I am wrong...the problem for humanity will be much greater than "can everyone have the necessities of life." If I am wrong about nature helping us regarding population...then more likely almost NOBODY will have enough.

I think we can leave that aspect for now, though, because we should be able to maintain "enough for everyone" for a considerable amount of time.

Let me get to the rest of your questions a bit later. My wife just got home and I have to go for a while.
I couldn't disagree more completely. It's not because we don't have the resources, we may, I don't believe human nature will not allow it.

What your suggesting here is a distribution of resources. I'm not saying you're a communist but communism sought to create the kind of situation I think you're describing here. Where everyone has what they need. Let me ask you if you think stalin ever stood in line for toilet paper? I'm not being snarky but it's important that someone has to make the choices and the ones who do hold the reigns of power. James Madison said:

"If men were angels no government would be necessary. If angles were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this; you must first enable the government to control the governed and the next place, oblige it to control itself." From my experience the government is much better that the former than the latter.
 
The big problem is when government decides what is enough for everyone. To use a concrete, recent example:

Disclaimer here: NO I am not bashing Michelle Obama here. Anyone could have come up with this plan in government. I am using it solely as an example because it fits the discussion.

School lunches. Michelle Obama rammed through a standardized "healthy" school lunch program while First Lady. It was intended to give every student the same sort of "healthy" lunch at school everyday. Alternatives were to be banned, even forbidden, in the interests of everyone getting the same and enough.

As it went into effect, it quickly crashed and burned. One person's "enough" was insufficient for another. For example, the calories allowed were low as the program was supposed to fight obesity and had to fit all students. So, while this calorie count might have been fine or even generous for a sedentary small female, it was nearly a starvation level diet for a large male athlete. No accounting was made for different needs. Everyone got the same and that was supposed to be "more than enough."

The program also quickly devolved into lunches that were bland, unappetizing, and repetitive. Students often started throwing them out or not eating them to begin with. Black markets arose to replace the lack of food and snacks. Students and teachers started smuggling in junk food, snacks, and other items, now banned by the program, to satisfy student demand for food. Students with means simply paid up and even participated as black marketeers. Those without such means were forced to eat the gruel being served if they wanted a meal.

The whole program was an unmitigated disaster. When government gets to decide for everyone, no one will be satisfied with the outcome.

That's reality. Government is the worst way to do just about anything and should only be used when there is no viable alternative to it.
I couldn't agree more but I'm actually trying to have a reasoned discussion with Francis there. So far so good but the idea of sufficient and enough is meaningless but I'm trying to work with the reasoning I am given. He seems to think the earth has inexhaustible resources to provide everyone on earth with what would be considered sufficient or enough
 
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