I know for a fact that people's views can change through debate. Frankly, I think it is absurd to even deny that it is impossible, but that's what you do.....You said your views cannot be changed through debate and then agreed when I said my views have changed through debate and reading and that I would be ashamed if they had not. Nevermind, Ditzy...
Oh, I do agree that views can be changed through debate, but human propensity to connect with their spirituality can't. We are born with that, and it doesn't change. You may have swayed someone's opinion who wanted to live in denial with you, I'll grant you that, but you didn't fundamentally change a person's connection to spirituality, you can't.
You are just evading.
My thoughts are shaped like this. Don't see it... come a little closer and I might show you the shape on your nose. They are also a form of energy which can be measured.
Now answer my question. What is the shape and form of your god?
It's not an evasion. I will answer your question when you answer mine! What is the shape and form of your thoughts? Are you admitting your thoughts are not real and don't exist? That seems to be what you are saying here!
LOL, and you ignore the point. All you are doing in this thread is telling atheists what they believe even when they tell you otherwise. YOU ARE intellectually dishonest. You are afraid to accept what people are telling you they think and instead demand they believe something else, because it allows you to dehumanize them. It's a typical debate tactic for you, but what is frightening is you seem to actually believe your own nonsense.
I am merely telling you what you do believe, which is not what you claim to believe. I am demonstrating your classical symptoms of denial, which I painstakingly pointed out earlier, and no one could refute. In fact, you have abandoned trying to refute my points, and adopted a strategy of diminishing my credibility and attacking my integrity. Nothing I have said is dehumanizing, that is your tactic here.
Atheists do not, by definition, believe that there is no basis for objective or intrinsic value. Because you are small minded and cannot imagine any reason for those outside of God you don't undesrtand how they might.
Well I have given you ample time to explain what basis you can establish objectives and intrinsic value for life, without any spiritual beliefs, and you have not done so. I am open-minded, I will listen to what you have to say if it's worthwhile, but what you will present is some lame attempt to mask the truth. The fact of the matter is, without a spiritual basis, there is no fundamental objective to life, or intrinsic value. We are what we are, and all we will ever be, and it doesn't really matter if we are moral or immoral, because there is no consequence for our immorality. Therefore, morality becomes self-defined and irrelevant. A pointless charade to console our ego, and nothing more.
But, without religion how does God give you any insight into objective or intrinsic value?
You don't have to be connected to religion to know and understand God. The best way I can describe it to you is, your conscience. You instinctively understand right from wrong, you know when you are doing something that is wrong, but what makes your conscience work? Again, like your thoughts, we can't see, taste, smell, or touch your conscience, you have no physical proof it exists, but you know it does.
Belief in a God does not necessitate any moral code. There are many different religions believing in God or gods with varying moral codes. One could believe in a God that wants us to go forth to kill, rape and pillage. One could believe in God that does not give a shit what we do (which is what you seem to argue at times, but your supposed views are incoherent).
Most beliefs in God or spirit are surrounded by moral codes which will satisfy the God or spirit. Indeed, as I admitted earlier, religious believers can most certainly pervert their religious teachings and cause great evil on mankind, I even gave some examples. It's frustrating that I spend all this time typing out my responses, and you don't seem to bother reading through them. Or you read them, but grossly misinterpret the message.
This was the point of my question which you evade. Without religion (the moral code) there is no point in believing in God. We do not need God for a moral code, but without him there is no religion. God is only neccessary for an irrational moral code that one can't accept through reason.
Some religions don't believe in a single God entity, the Buddhists, for instance. "Reason" is no basis for moral code. It is inherently flawed because it is determined by man. You can "reason" that it's okay to murder unborn babies for the sake of vanity and convenience and the "choice" of a woman, so "reason" is an inadequate foundation for morality.
You said without the afterlife (relligion), among other things, there is no basis for values and no purpose in life. That indicates you believe in the afterlife or you are saying you have no basis for values or purpose in life.
Not what I said, you need to read it again. I am pointing out that Atheists do not believe in spirituality, deities, afterlife, etc. Nothing in that indicates I believe or don't believe in an afterlife, that is just a statement of definitive fact, it has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. Without ANY relevant belief in spirituality OR without ANY beliefs in religious teaching OR without any belief in afterlife OR without any belief in consequences for immorality, there is no foundational basis for fundamental moral beliefs. I personally know and understand spirituality, and therefore, I have a basis and foundation for my morals. I realize that bad moral behavior, things which contradict my conscience, result in negative karma, negative energies, and diminished fulfillment for me personally. My spiritual belief is the foundational basis for that, without it, there would not be a foundational basis.... have I broken this down easy enough for you to chew?
Nonsense. Morality can be determined by human nature and the nature of reality, with use of knowledge, reason and logic.
No, it simply can't. It fails without a foundational basis.
You are the one who argues that morality is determined subjectively, by the majority.
Uhm... nooo... I never said that. I did argue that we are a society made up of diverse opinions of what is morally right and wrong, and as such, our
society and civilization should function and operate on the basis of what the vast majority wishes to establish as the 'rules' by which we live. This doesn't mean my personal viewpoint of morality is relative, it may completely contradict what the rest of society advocates.
Then what is the basis for your morality? Your shower conversations?
I already explained this above, but again... I believe in a supreme power, energy or force which encompasses our universe... I don't just believe it, I am acutely aware of it everyday in my everyday life. Through my experience in life, I have determined that my behavior (morality) has a direct effect on this energy flow and this effects my life, the things I do or want to do, the decisions I make, the choices and options I have. If I behave counter-intuitively to what my conscience guides me to do, bad shit almost always results. Subsequently, when I conform to my conscience and do what I know to be the right thing (morally), I receive what religious people might consider a "blessing" for that. My life goes well, things go my way, good shit happens as a result. Maybe I haven't explained it to where you can understand it, and perhaps you have to make that same connection to God that I have made, but that's about the best I can do in answering your question.
That is logical proof as well as physical evidence. You don't have anything like that for God.
Sorry Stringster, you have presented ZERO logical
proof that gravity will work tomorrow. You have no physical evidence to establish proof. What you do have, is the same thing others have with their belief in God, you have FAITH. You believe that gravity will work tomorrow as it worked today, and you base it on the fact that gravity has always worked a certain way. Spirituality has always worked a certain way in the human species as well.
