The Kids are Doing Alright: The Culture War is Over

AssHatZombie said:
That hackneyed feminist tripe was debunked in the late seventies, dude; it's
along the lines of "all sex is rape" etc. It's hysterical and unmanly as well. Get a grip and grow a pair.
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I can state from experience the best sex is with a liberated woman. Equal participant. Confident. There's no going back! :)
 
Yurt said:
to claim the culture "war" is over is naive in the extreme....

as long as humans continue to populate the earth with new generations, you will always have differences of culture, additionally, with the many different peoples of the earth, you will also have differences of culture, not only of different religions, ethnicities, countries, but of even local/regional differences....

take san luis obispo, ca and santa cruz, ca......
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I already addressed that (see my response to onceler).

I am talking about THE American Culture War, which was a battle over the shape and face of the American family that started in earnest in the 60s, but probably first started with passage of the 19th amendment.

This is what the social conservatives have been talking about for some time now because it IS a pivotal event in human and American history. Are you from this country? Have you lived under a rock the last 50 years?

It has not been a back and forth, it has been one steady march. And it is nearing it's finish. Where else can it go?

Yes there were always ethnic squabbles centering around immigration. Those are minor and, maybe, never ending. But that is due to economic stupidity. It has nothing to do with the foundational social aspects of family which shape our world.

Like I said, social conservatives have been hoping to return to the 50s since I was a young man. They have not moved the line 20 years forward. They are still holding out for the 50s. And it is forever gone.
 
Threedee said:
How about, peoplez have rights?
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A fertilized egg is not one. Our individuality is in our brains. It is our nature as a rational animal that gives us rights and make them necessary for human civilization. We are not just a mindless collection of cells and if we were we would have no need of rights anymore than a tree.

You guys act as if this was some accident. It was not. It is the logical result of the argument for individual rights.

It is possible there will be limits on abortion. It will not be outlawed. Like I said, the women won't allow it.
 
apple0154 said:
The same can be said about a fertilized chicken egg or an acorn; a developmental stage. Due to living in a world governed by "time" everything develops but it's not what it will become until it does develop, assuming it does develop.

As Onceler explained that's why we have different words for different stages. It's just as absurd to call a zygote a human being as it is to say a pile of lumber is a house.
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Another of your bad analogies

A zygote is a human being in a living cycle of development. A stack of lumber is an inanimate object yet to be constructed and built. Doing nothing to the lumber it will remains a pile of lumber and eventually may rot; doing nothing to the zygote and it will continue to grow.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Another of your bad analogies

A zygote is a human being in a living cycle of development. A stack of lumber is an inanimate object yet to be constructed and built. Doing nothing to the lumber it will remains a pile of lumber and eventually may rot; doing nothing to the zygote and it will continue to grow.
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Let's put em on a pallet in a lumberyard and see which one rots/grows faster.
 
RStringfield said:
I already addressed that (see my response to onceler).

I am talking about THE American Culture War, which was a battle over the shape and face of the American family that started in earnest in the 60s, but probably first started with passage of the 19th amendment.

This is what the social conservatives have been talking about for some time now because it IS a pivotal event in human and American history. Are you from this country? Have you lived under a rock the last 50 years?

It has not been a back and forth, it has been one steady march. And it is nearing it's finish. Where else can it go?

Yes there were always ethnic squabbles centering around immigration. Those are minor and, maybe, never ending. But that is due to economic stupidity. It has nothing to do with the foundational social aspects of family which shape our world.

Like I said, social conservatives have been hoping to return to the 50s since I was a young man. They have not moved the line 20 years forward. They are still holding out for the 50s. And it is forever gone.
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and you're naive to assume its over

the 60's and 70's were all about free lovin...yet that dramatically changed in the 80's....as for returning to the 50's...you again show your ignorance

what exactly is the 50's? a commercial or mag advert in some magazine? the country actually conservative in the 80's....then the 90's was a free for all...still the country moved towards conservatism....hence, the republicans taking over congress and bush winning TWO terms

this is cyclical...its how america operates...
 
RStringfield said:
Let's put em on a pallet in a lumberyard and see which one rots/grows faster.
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How perfunctorily stupid and ridiculous...but then that's just you being you. Let's put an infant on a pallet and see if it survives....like I said you are a total dorkpuss.

The point that you either are too knee-jerk or flat out stupid to get is that a stack of lumber if left alone remains a stack of lumber. If the zygote is left alone (not killed) will continue to grow.
 
RStringfield said:
A fertilized egg is not one. Our individuality is in our brains. It is our nature as a rational animal that gives us rights and make them necessary for human civilization. We are not just a mindless collection of cells and if we were we would have no need of rights anymore than a tree.

You guys act as if this was some accident. It was not. It is the logical result of the argument for individual rights.

It is possible there will be limits on abortion. It will not be outlawed. Like I said, the women won't allow it.
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Slaves aren't people, either. Neither are Jews. In fact, in the whole history of the world, no deliberate, coordinated mass murder ever occurred against actual human beings, unless it was at least agreed that the superior humans had a right to kill off its inferiors. You should publish a journal so that future historians can use it to ridicule you by name in their annals.
 
Yurt said:
and you're naive to assume its over

the 60's and 70's were all about free lovin...yet that dramatically changed in the 80's....as for returning to the 50's...you again show your ignorance

what exactly is the 50's? a commercial or mag advert in some magazine? the country actually conservative in the 80's....then the 90's was a free for all...still the country moved towards conservatism....hence, the republicans taking over congress and bush winning TWO terms

this is cyclical...its how america operates...
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You are dense.

ITS ABOUT THE FAMILY. If you did not know that then YOU HAVE BEEN living under a rock or were born yesterday and you did not read the op.

The 80s were not socially conservative. Maybe you were not there, I don't know. Economically, conservatives made progress. But we were not headed back to the 50's family and social life. We did not even slow down much in our progress as homosexual rights first became a national issue and has moved in only one direction since.

There was definitely some slow down in reaction to lifestyles for which Manson became the poster boy. But that was just a few nuts that tried to build a lifestyle on hallucinogens anyway.

It's not cyclical. When were women, or any group, granted equal rights and then had them taken away? When did we go through the significant changes in family life and then return to the old family structure? Not just in America but in the steady progress of human society.

Women's liberation set off extremely fundamental changes in human society, marriage and the family. It's importance will be more important than Christianity was. The social conservatives told us what a significant impact it would have and was having.
 
Threedee said:
Slaves aren't people, either. Neither are Jews. In fact, in the whole history of the world, no deliberate, coordinated mass murder ever occurred against actual human beings, unless it was at least agreed that the superior humans had a right to kill off its inferiors. You should publish a journal so that future historians can use it to ridicule you by name in their annals.
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They don't have brains?

There is no comparison and you do not understand the source of individual rights. A brainless lump of cells can no more act on its rights than the tree Dixie wants to have sex with. It's not just too young. It does not possess any mental capacity and has no more legal rights than a corpse. It will not grow unless the mother or an artificial womb gives it the things it requires for development.

Women have a right to choose what support they will give and what risks they will accept in that until there is the spark of humanity that establishes human rights.

And talking about taking look backs in history, we can actually look back and see the Catholic church arguing a similar position as the quickening. They have actually gone back and forth on this issue, but American society has moved in just one direction on it since women were given the right to vote. Again, it is not going to change.
 
RStringfield said:
I am not a Democrat, nor is it very useful to describe my libertarian views as being on the left in the current political climate.
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/shrugs....sick is sick, no matter how you vote...and favoring the wanton killing of unborn children is sick.......
 
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RStringfield said:
They don't have brains?

There is no comparison and you do not understand the source of individual rights. A brainless lump of cells can no more act on its rights than the tree Dixie wants to have sex with. It's not just too young. It does not possess any mental capacity and has no more legal rights than a corpse. It will not grow unless the mother or an artificial womb gives it the things it requires for development.

Women have a right to choose what support they will give and what risks they will accept in that until there is the spark of humanity that establishes human rights.

And talking about taking look backs in history, we can actually look back and see the Catholic church arguing a similar position as the quickening. They have actually gone back and forth on this issue, but American society has moved in just one direction on it since women were given the right to vote. Again, it is not going to change.
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which will happen first....humanity will choose not to let unborn children die......or humanity will choose to expand those we are allowed to kill......if we continue to permit the left to desensitize our children as to the value of life, it will be the latter......
 
RStringfield said:
They don't have brains?

There is no comparison and you do not understand the source of individual rights. A brainless lump of cells can no more act on its rights than the tree Dixie wants to have sex with. It's not just too young. It does not possess any mental capacity and has no more legal rights than a corpse. It will not grow unless the mother or an artificial womb gives it the things it requires for development.

Women have a right to choose what support they will give and what risks they will accept in that until there is the spark of humanity that establishes human rights.

And talking about taking look backs in history, we can actually look back and see the Catholic church arguing a similar position as the quickening. They have actually gone back and forth on this issue, but American society has moved in just one direction on it since women were given the right to vote. Again, it is not going to change.
Click to expand...

The founders argued that individual rights come from a Natural Law, which apparently comes from God. As for the Church, it argued against abortion during the Roman Empire, so it wasn't until its usual compromises with Medieval European kingdoms that those ideas got published. Besides, why do I necessarily have to introduce the documents of my Church into the debate, when the obvious moral error of mass-murder and killing can be used as something that is both secular and self-evident.
 
RStringfield said:
And talking about taking look backs in history, we can actually look back and see the Catholic church arguing a similar position as the quickening.
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actually, the changes are reflective of the knowledge gained through scientific endeavor......when science determined when children were actually alive, the church adjusted it's views on killing them......oddly, it's the seculars who continue to ignore science in this case.......
 
RStringfield said:
...or it soon will be.

It's time for the social conservatives to face the facts of the world as it now exists. The ideal of the two parent family unit is dead and it is not going to return. "Leave it to Beaver" was nothing but a myth to begin with.

Much of the change in the social dynamics was due to equal rights for women. Basically, they no longer have to put up with our shit and can leave us at anytime. Now, don't get it twisted, I am not sorry about it. It was necessary. They should have never been treated as they once were.

The social upheaval in the wake of women's liberation has passed. The family unit has moved on and I am often struck by the fact that many of the children that surround me are better behaved than I was. I was hell on wheels and many of my peers were worse. Nowadays it is hard to get the kids off the xbox long enough for them to get into much trouble. Even my nephew, who is a bit rough around the edges and was raised mostly by a single mother of 6 boys, is probably a little better behaved than I was.

This is not just anecdotal as crime rates have dropped, tremendously, since the 80s-90s and continue to in rough economic times. Why is that? In my opinion, it is largely due to the fact that this generation of parents is better suited for the new realities, having been raised under them. There is also the fact that we are better at detecting crimes, which probably plays a part. Also, we have at least somewhat relaxed the drug war. But I think the last two are lesser factors.

So here are some facts you need to accept...

Abortion is not going to be outlawed. Shut up already.

The major fighting in the drug war is approaching it's sunset. It was stupid to begin with and it did not stop drug use. Local and state governments across the country are finding they no longer have the money to fight it.

Homosexuals will be allowed to marry. That mythical family unit should not be a road block any longer. It never existed and the realities were nowhere near ideal. It certainly does not exist now, nor will it appear if we just keep the homosexuals down.

You are not going to reclaim the public spheres, where you once brainwashed the children with myths and false fears. You are certainly free to practice your faith and/or strive for your ideal family. But, to hell with your religion forced down our throats by the force of law.

The social conservatives need to sit down and shut up. We are not going back through it. It's over, you lost, move on and don't worry so much. It's gonna be alright.
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The two parent family is not a myth, per se....it's just should never have been used to make the single parent feel guilty or odd. Ozzie & Harriet, Father Knows Best, The Brady Bunch....THOSE were myths. As TV and movies went through major changes after 1968 and 1972, they may have had more realistic versions of the American family but it's still surrealistic or unrealistic versions.

The vast majority of Americans have been and are raised by two parent families and came out pretty good. Hell, you can say that for pretty much of the world.

What is and always will be a phallacy is the gay "family". The gay family is an artificial construct....period. And until you can have a pregnant man or a woman impregnate another woman, the gay family will remain an artificial construct.

The Stacey and Bilblarz study will always be the thorn in the side of the gay family advocacy.
 
Threedee said:
The founders argued that individual rights come from a Natural Law, which apparently comes from God. As for the Church, it argued against abortion during the Roman Empire, so it wasn't until its usual compromises with Medieval European kingdoms that those ideas got published. Besides, why do I necessarily have to introduce the documents of my Church into the debate, when the obvious moral error of mass-murder and killing can be used as something that is both secular and self-evident.
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Not really. They argued that man's rights came from his nature as a man or as a rational animal. Many still believed that that nature had been created by God, but others were already well aware that that was not necessary.

"Man [is] a rational animal, endowed by nature with rights and with an innate sense of justice." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:441
 
RStringfield said:
You are dense.

ITS ABOUT THE FAMILY. If you did not know that then YOU HAVE BEEN living under a rock or were born yesterday and you did not read the op.

The 80s were not socially conservative. Maybe you were not there, I don't know. Economically, conservatives made progress. But we were not headed back to the 50's family and social life. We did not even slow down much in our progress as homosexual rights first became a national issue and has moved in only one direction since.

There was definitely some slow down in reaction to lifestyles for which Manson became the poster boy. But that was just a few nuts that tried to build a lifestyle on hallucinogens anyway.

It's not cyclical. When were women, or any group, granted equal rights and then had them taken away? When did we go through the significant changes in family life and then return to the old family structure? Not just in America but in the steady progress of human society.

Women's liberation set off extremely fundamental changes in human society, marriage and the family. It's importance will be more important than Christianity was. The social conservatives told us what a significant impact it would have and was having.
Click to expand...

nothing you have said actually counters what i said.....

if this is about opinion only....fine....my opinion vs yours....just don't pass off your opinion as fact

and don't be surprised when the country turns conservative.....read history, you will learn something
 
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