Who belives President Obama is a Socialist?

Onceler said:
That's a pretty good definition.

Thanks for posting. Maybe it will give some of those who keep calling this "Socialism" pause.
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Why? They argue constantly for incrementalism, Obama specifically talked about it in regard to working towards a Single Payer system and that the law he passed would be the first step... Then you pretend that nobody can talk about the result that they believe he is working towards?

I think your argument is weak.

Regardless of whether or not Obama is a socialist, saying that nobody could possibly hold such an opinion because the "movement" is in the "first steps" is just a poor argument.
 
Maybe the libtards can offer their definition of socialism? I bet it's more like communism.

socialism is defined as a subset of communism or rather a stage along the way from capitalism to communism
 
Damocles said:
Why? They argue constantly for incrementalism, Obama specifically talked about it in regard to working towards a Single Payer system and that the law he passed would be the first step... Then you pretend that nobody can talk about the result that they believe he is working towards?

I think your argument is weak.

.
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Really? You're joining the tin foil hat crowd on this?

The Red Menace?

Okey dokey; have at it. This ain't socialism, and never will be.
 
Damocles said:
Why? They argue constantly for incrementalism, Obama specifically talked about it in regard to working towards a Single Payer system and that the law he passed would be the first step... Then you pretend that nobody can talk about the result that they believe he is working towards?

I think your argument is weak.

Regardless of whether or not Obama is a socialist, saying that nobody can say it because the "movement" is in the "first steps" is just a poor argument.
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Saying Obama is a Socialist is stupid and only stupid people, or people that aren't really stupid but like to get the stupid people riled up, say it.
 
Wow you Libtards can't even acknowledge your own Messiah's goal. Either you're too stupid to know the truth or you're liars. Which is it?
 
NigelTufnel said:
Saying Obama isn't a Socialist is stupid and only stupid people, or people that aren't really stupid but like to get the stupid people riled up, say it.
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There are stupid people on both sides of this discussion, it is ridiculous to pretend that everything Obama does has a socialist bent. It is equally ridiculous to ignore the policies and statements that DO have a socialist ideology behind them.

Only a fool or someone in a kool aid induced coma would pretend that Obama and many Dems want to take the health care system in this country and socialize it.
 
Superfreak said:
There are stupid people on both sides of this discussion, it is ridiculous to pretend that everything Obama does has a socialist bent. It is equally ridiculous to ignore the policies and statements that DO have a socialist ideology behind them.

Only a fool or someone in a kool aid induced coma would pretend that Obama and many Dems want to take the health care system in this country and socialize it.
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Actually, very few people want to socialize it. Many want single-payer but that ain't socialist. A socialist health care system would be along the lines of what the UK's got or along the lines of the VA system.

And frankly, there are lots of people that, while criticizing Obama for wanting to socialize US healthcare through single-payer, celebrate the single-payer system we do have called Medicare. So, which is it? Is single-payer/Medicare socialist and bad? Is single-payer/Medicare not socialist and good? Is single-payer/Medicare socialist and good? Is single-payer/Medicare not socialist and bad?
 
Onceler said:
Really? You're joining the tin foil hat crowd on this?

The Red Menace?

Okey dokey; have at it. This ain't socialism, and never will be.
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No, I'm talking about the argument specifically. I think it is a poor argument and explained why. Regardless of whether it is true or false saying 'you can't say it at all because it hasn't been successful yet' is weak.

Seriously, they point to how 'such and such' can lead to socialism and you say, "It isn't socialism yet so shut up."

It's a child's argument. Tell them why you believe that none of these programs can lead to any sort of socialism, or even any partial socialism like Canada's Single Payer system where the government actually made private health care illegal... Tell them why that couldn't be considered socialism when the man himself says he is working towards exactly that solution. Don't just say, "not yet, so you can't say it"...

That's like saying that you can't talk about bees stinging people because clearly they haven't stung anybody yet while you poke the hive with a stick...
 
NigelTufnel said:
Actually, very few people want to socialize it. Many want single-payer but that ain't socialist. A socialist health care system would be along the lines of what the UK's got or along the lines of the VA system.

And frankly, there are lots of people that, while criticizing Obama for wanting to socialize US healthcare through single-payer, celebrate the single-payer system we do have called Medicare. So, which is it? Is single-payer/Medicare socialist and bad? Is single-payer/Medicare not socialist and good? Is single-payer/Medicare socialist and good? Is single-payer/Medicare not socialist and bad?
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You are looking at ONE aspect of Medicare that people like... you are failing to look at the FACT that it is GROSSLY UNDERFUNDED. When people start getting the tax bill for Medicare 'catch ups'.... then come tell me how much they like it.
 
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Damocles said:
No, I'm talking about the argument specifically. I think it is a poor argument and explained why. Regardless of whether it is true or false saying 'you can't say it at all because it hasn't been successful yet' is weak.

Seriously, they point to how 'such and such' can lead to socialism and you say, "It isn't socialism yet so shut up."

It's a child's argument. Tell them why you believe that none of these programs can lead to any sort of socialism, or even any partial socialism like Canada's Single Payer system where the government actually made private health care illegal... Tell them why that couldn't be considered socialism when the man himself says he is working towards exactly that solution. Don't just say, "not yet, so you can't say it"...

That's like saying that you can't talk about bees stinging people because clearly they haven't stung anybody yet while you poke the hive with a stick...
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You talk about "child's arguments", but you skip right over the cries of socialism from your own side.

They're not talking about "what might be," Damo. You have a real blind eye to the nutters on the right.
 
Damocles said:
No, I'm talking about the argument specifically. I think it is a poor argument and explained why. Regardless of whether it is true or false saying 'you can't say it at all because it hasn't been successful yet' is weak.

Seriously, they point to how 'such and such' can lead to socialism and you say, "It isn't socialism yet so shut up."

It's a child's argument. Tell them why you believe that none of these programs can lead to any sort of socialism, or even any partial socialism like Canada's Single Payer system where the government actually made private health care illegal... Tell them why that couldn't be considered socialism when the man himself says he is working towards exactly that solution. Don't just say, "not yet, so you can't say it"...

That's like saying that you can't talk about bees stinging people because clearly they haven't stung anybody yet while you poke the hive with a stick...
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By that logic anyone that supports Medicare can rightly be called a Socialist. That's fine if that's what you believe. But if you're going to define down things like Socialism such that a vast majority fall under your construction of the term you've diluted the term to such a degree that it is virtually meaningless.
 
Jarod said:
Define socalist?
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With respect to todays US political landscape, ......a Socialist is,

Any one that adheres to the philosophy of "redistribution of wealth" as a justifiable, moral obligation of government......
Thats is...
Confiscating the property (usually through taxation), of those that have been economically successful and giving (redistributing) that property to those that have not been economically successful....

This has nothing to do with the political concept of liberalism or the improperly defined concept of conservationism....
 
Onceler said:
b

You talk about "child's arguments", but you skip right over the cries of socialism from your own side.

They're not talking about "what might be," Damo. You have a real blind eye to the nutters on the right.
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I gave specifics and spoke to why I think your argument is fallacious and all you give me is more of the same argument, now it's "But they say socialist and you're supposed to be yelling at them for it!"

Great, explain to me why such incremental plans to work towards government controlled health care isn't working towards at least partial "socialism".

I'm asking you to actually think and give specifics, for that purpose I chose a specific program that was promoted by Obama on his campaign as the first step in an incremental program where government would be the only "insurance" that anybody will ever have. Tell me how it is that I can't use "socialism" in such a context, do it without saying "because it isn't" or some other childish nonsense. (I hope I draw you when the "JPP Cup" starts.)
 
Saying President Obama is a Socialist is akin to calling Bush a Natzi, sure President Obama is closer to a socialist than say Musillini, but he is not anywhere close to Hugo Chavez....

Just like Bush was, on a scale, closer to Musilini, than say Chavez


It ends up being silly name callilng for those not intelegent enough to have a real discussion. Its a buzz word.
 
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