What does this painting mean to you?

Liberia would be a perfect place for them to move to. It was established by American slaves the official language is English. It is a majority Black country. they could live like Kings and Queens there for long enough to establish themselves.

I somehow missed this.
Let's take a closer look at Colossaians.

Colosions 2 because this seems to be relevant.

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Tools
Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Col 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Clearly Colossians is speaking about Ceremonial law. I think we both can agree on that.


The question is are Cerimonial festivals also called Sabbaths. This was given to the Children of Israel in the Sinai HUNDREDS of years after MAN was first given the 7th day Sabbath in the Garden of Eden.

Lev 16:29

And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Tools
Lev 16:30
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Lev 16:31
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls

Lev 23:39
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

We know that the feast days were called Sabbaths and foreshadowed the plan of salvation in symbolic terms and they were part of the Ceremonial law that was given in the Sinai. They were fulfilled by the advent of Christ. The type had met the anti-type so they we no longer needed because Christ fulfilled them.

AGAIN the seventh day Sabbath was given to MAN hundreds of years before the first Jew and even before MAN had sinned and before there was even a need for salvation. The purpose of the 7th day Sabbath is to focus on the God who created us.

So the 7th day Sabbath looks backwards to Creation and the temporary feast day Sabbaths held on various different days of the week were shadows of thing to come (Christ) and were fulfilled by Christ.

Clearly Paul was talking about Feast days that were a Shadow of things to come and not the 7th day Sabbath given to Man at Creation.

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Tools
Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Which all say the same thing. No man judge you in how you eat (kosher) or in respect of a holy day (Hannukah, Passover, etc.) or the sabbath day...

This is just one verse, I simplified it for you to one verse. Paul is telling the church that they need not worry about folks judging them for not following these things as the body of the church is of CHRIST, that His Grace gives you salvation, not your works.

You keep trying to limit your own church to the works of the Old Covenant to keep yourself "clean" so you could then enter the presence of God, but Christ cleansed you, you no longer need to follow those.

If the rule or commandment is one that is not of a moral character (like the Sabbath, or eating kosher) you no longer need to follow those rules.

The church also began meeting on "The Lord's Day" (Sunday) because Christ was raised on Sunday, and met with them the following week on the 1st day. The Christians began meeting on "the Lord's Day" thereafter and created a new tradition. This happened while Christ himself was still among the apostles, before he was "taken up", he certainly could have informed them that the Sabbath and eating kosher still mattered, but instead told them it was not what went into their mouths that was the problem, but what came out of their mouths, and never once told them to stop meeting on Sunday.... which, again, they began doing before he was "taken up"...

I still maintain that you really should speak of this to your pastor, not your local Buddhist on some political website. It isn't me that needs to care about this, it is you.
 
Sorry I merged a post to anynmoose with your's so I reposted yours because time expired before I caught it.

I somehow missed this.
Let's take a closer look at Colossaians.

Colosions 2 because this seems to be relevant.

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Tools
Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Col 2:20

Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Clearly Colossians is speaking about Ceremonial law. I think we both can agree on that.


The question is are Cerimonial festivals also called Sabbaths. This was given to the Children of Israel in the Sinai HUNDREDS of years after MAN was first given the 7th day Sabbath in the Garden of Eden.

Lev 16:29

And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Tools
Lev 16:30
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Lev 16:31
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls

Lev 23:39
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

We know that the feast days were called Sabbaths and foreshadowed the plan of salvation in symbolic terms and they were part of the Ceremonial law that was given in the Sinai. They were fulfilled by the advent of Christ. The type had met the anti-type so they we no longer needed because Christ fulfilled them.

AGAIN the seventh day Sabbath was given to MAN hundreds of years before the first Jew and even before MAN had sinned and before there was even a need for salvation. The purpose of the 7th day Sabbath is to focus on the God who created us.

So the 7th day Sabbath looks backwards to Creation and the temporary feast day Sabbaths held on various different days of the week were shadows of thing to come (Christ) and were fulfilled by Christ.

Clearly Paul was talking about Feast days that were a Shadow of things to come and not the 7th day Sabbath given to Man at Creation.

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Tools
Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
No, the Sabbath was a commandment, given to Moses on the top of a mountain thousands of years after creation. Adam was never commanded to remember the Sabbath day and was never told to even keep track of that. Jews as a people didn't exist until Abraham, 2000 years after creation, they didn't have those rules when they didn't need them. Even Abraham didn't have to follow the Sabbath commandment, as it wasn't a thing until 430 years later when Moses went up on Mount Sinai...

All those cleansing rules like wearing two different fabrics (verboten), washing feet, women in huts during periods, sabbath days, sacrificing animals, etc. became unnecessary once the promise was fulfilled and the God you believe in (not me) told them they were no longer necessary as he had come to fulfill that, to cleanse you so you didn't have to follow those rituals to cleanse yourself for his presence any longer, the bill had been paid.
 
No, the Sabbath was a commandment, given to Moses on the top of a mountain thousands of years after creation. Adam was never commanded to remember the Sabbath day and was never told to even keep track of that. Jews as a people didn't exist until Abraham, 2000 years after creation, they didn't have those rules when they didn't need them. Even Abraham didn't have to follow the Sabbath commandment, as it wasn't a thing until 430 years later when Moses went up on Mount Sinai...

All those cleansing rules like wearing two different fabrics (verboten), washing feet, women in huts during periods, sabbath days, sacrificing animals, etc. became unnecessary once the promise was fulfilled and the God you believe in (not me) told them they were no longer necessary as he had come to fulfill that, to cleanse you so you didn't have to follow those rituals to cleanse yourself for his presence any longer, the bill had been paid.
Damo the Israelites were keeping the Sabbath BEFORE Moses received the Ten Commandments on mount Sinai

Did God speak to Abraham and did Abraham know and keep God's Commandments before the first Jew? Yes.

Gen 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And as I alluded to in an earlier post Moses had the Israelites observing the Sabbath BEFORE the Exodus and that vexed the Pharaoh


The Jews in Egypt

The Strong's Lexicon is the world's leading authoritative source on the words used in the Bible. If you have never used one Strong's helps to define every word used in the Bible. They organize it by giving each word a number.

BEFORE the Exodus
Exo 5:5
And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest (Strong's H7673) from their burdens.

Strong's H7673 - šāḇaṯ
(Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath

So the Sabbath was being kept by the Jews and probably also by Abraham BEFORE the Law was written on tablets of stone. That means it isn't part of the Ceremonial law which was given after Mount Sinai.

The Jews before Mount Sinai

Exo 16:26
Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.


The Jews at mount Sinai
Exo 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Tools
Exo 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17
Which are a shadow of things to come
; but the body is of Christ.

Damo I ask you just how the 7th day Sabbath day is a Shadow of Christ? The 7th day Sabbath looks back at Creation and our Creator and not forward to Christ and his death on the cross. Colosions is talking about Ceremonial Law not the Moral Law.
 
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Which all say the same thing. No man judge you in how you eat (kosher) or in respect of a holy day (Hannukah, Passover, etc.) or the sabbath day...

This is just one verse, I simplified it for you to one verse. Paul is telling the church that they need not worry about folks judging them for not following these things as the body of the church is of CHRIST, that His Grace gives you salvation, not your works.

You keep trying to limit your own church to the works of the Old Covenant to keep yourself "clean" so you could then enter the presence of God, but Christ cleansed you, you no longer need to follow those.

If the rule or commandment is one that is not of a moral character (like the Sabbath, or eating kosher) you no longer need to follow those rules.

The church also began meeting on "The Lord's Day" (Sunday) because Christ was raised on Sunday, and met with them the following week on the 1st day. The Christians began meeting on "the Lord's Day" thereafter and created a new tradition. This happened while Christ himself was still among the apostles, before he was "taken up", he certainly could have informed them that the Sabbath and eating kosher still mattered, but instead told them it was not what went into their mouths that was the problem, but what came out of their mouths, and never once told them to stop meeting on Sunday.... which, again, they began doing before he was "taken up"...

I still maintain that you really should speak of this to your pastor, not your local Buddhist on some political website. It isn't me that needs to care about this, it is you.
Non Jews were never required to follow the law

Gentiles were never GIVEN “the Law”, i.e., the Torah. The only laws in the Torah to which non-Jews are subject are the Seven Noachide Laws. The Ten Commandments in Exodus, repeated in Deuteronomy, do not apply to them.
 
Damo the Israelites were keeping the Sabbath BEFORE Moses received the Ten Commandments on mount Sinai

Did God speak to Abraham and did Abraham know and keep God's Commandments before the first Jew? Yes.

Gen 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And as I alluded to in an earlier post Moses had the Israelites observing the Sabbath BEFORE the Exodus and that vexed the Pharaoh


The Jews in Egypt

The Strong's Lexicon is the world's leading authoritative source on the words used in the Bible. If you have never used one Strong's helps to define every word used in the Bible. They organize it by giving each word a number.

BEFORE the Exodus
Exo 5:5
And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest (Strong's H7673) from their burdens.

Strong's H7673 - šāḇaṯ
(Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath

So the Sabbath was being kept by the Jews and probably also by Abraham BEFORE the Law was written on tablets of stone. That means it isn't part of the Ceremonial law which was given after Mount Sinai.

The Jews before Mount Sinai

Exo 16:26
Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.


The Jews at mount Sinai
Exo 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Tools
Exo 20:12
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Col 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17
Which are a shadow of things to come
; but the body is of Christ.

Damo I ask you just how the 7th day Sabbath day is a Shadow of Christ? The 7th day Sabbath looks back at Creation and our Creator and not forward to Christ and his death on the cross. Colosions is talking about Ceremonial Law not the Moral Law.
Adam was never, and I mean never, asked to keep track of the 7th day. The commandment didn't exist until Moses. You continue to fail to understand the difference between the Old and the New Covenant. You really do need to speak to your pastor, ask him about this specifically. At this point it is useless to talk to you, new information will not pass into that skull by any means whatsoever, so I am hopeful you will listen to somebody you think is an authority on it.

You have to be embarrassed when the local Buddhist understands the concept of Grace more than the person purporting to be a Christian.
 
Non Jews were never required to follow the law

Gentiles were never GIVEN “the Law”, i.e., the Torah. The only laws in the Torah to which non-Jews are subject are the Seven Noachide Laws. The Ten Commandments in Exodus, repeated in Deuteronomy, do not apply to them.
This isn't about whether "non-jews" were required to follow the law. The first Christians were all Jews who converted after Christ rose from the dead on Sunday. They followed the rituals, including Sabbath, but changed when Christ rose on Sunday.

I am trying to get through the man's skull what exactly changed, why the Sabbath and other non moral rules, such as keeping kosher, apply to Christians...
 
Adam was never, and I mean never, asked to keep track of the 7th day. The commandment didn't exist until Moses. You continue to fail to understand the difference between the Old and the New Covenant. You really do need to speak to your pastor, ask him about this specifically. At this point it is useless to talk to you, new information will not pass into that skull by any means whatsoever, so I am hopeful you will listen to somebody you think is an authority on it.

You have to be embarrassed when the local Buddhist understands the concept of Grace more than the person purporting to be a Christian.
No Damo I seriously doubt you understand grace as well as I do.
I KNOW you don't understand the Moral Law vs the Ceremonial Law. For example do you still think the 7th day Sabbath was given on Mount of Sinai or before Moses received the Ten Commandments and before Moses received the Ceremonial Law. So I will leave you with these thoughts

1 . God Rested on 7th Sabbath -Gen 2:3
2. God Sanctified the 7th day Sabbath Gen 2: 3
3. God blessed the 7th day Sabbath Exo 20:11
4. God hallowed the 7th day Sabbath (made Holy) Exodus 20:11
5. God spoke to Abraham and he kept God's Commandments Gen 26:5
6. In Egypt the Jews kept the Sabbath Exo 5:5
7. Exo Before The ten Commandments on Sinai the Jews kept the Sabbath Exo 16:23
8. God provides double manna on the 6th day and none on the 7th day Sabbath so people would not be working collecting manna on the Sabbath. Exo 16: 22-26
9. God is upset when some Jews ignored him and went out to hunt for manna on the 7th day Sabbath Exo Exo 16:27-30
10. God gives Ten Commandments to Moses Exo 20
11. Ceremonial laws given AFTER Sinai so not part of the Moral Law.

The 7th day Sabbath was given before the Ceremonial laws were given and is not a show of things to come like Col 2:16-17 REQUIRE.

The saints well be keeping God's Commandments and will enter the gates to Heaven

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Tools
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I'll conclude there is NO PLACE in the Bible where the 1st day of the week is called the Lord's day. The Lord's day is the Sabbath

Mat 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Tools
Mar 2:28
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Tools
Luk 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Christians are supposed to keep the Sabbath for the SAME reasons they shouldn't lie, steal, commit adultery, dishonor their parents etc. but you aren't screaming about grace about those are you? You keep God's Commandments BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM.

Post script. What passes for the modern day gift of tongues isn't what occurred in the Bible either ;)
 
This isn't about whether "non-jews" were required to follow the law. The first Christians were all Jews who converted after Christ rose from the dead on Sunday. They followed the rituals, including Sabbath, but changed when Christ rose on Sunday.

I am trying to get through the man's skull what exactly changed, why the Sabbath and other non moral rules, such as keeping kosher, apply to Christians...
OK Damo show me a verse where the 1st day of the week is called the Lord's day.

And while at it why did Paul worship on the 7th day Sabbath more than seventy times in the Bible? :dunno:
 
This isn't about whether "non-jews" were required to follow the law. The first Christians were all Jews who converted after Christ rose from the dead on Sunday. They followed the rituals, including Sabbath, but changed when Christ rose on Sunday.

I am trying to get through the man's skull what exactly changed, why the Sabbath and other non moral rules, such as keeping kosher, apply to Christians...
That's better Damo you don't want bad karma.
 
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No Damo I seriously doubt you understand grace as well as I do.
I KNOW you don't understand the Moral Law vs the Ceremonial Law. For example do you still think the 7th day Sabbath was given on Mount of Sinai or before Moses received the Ten Commandments and before Moses received the Ceremonial Law. So I will leave you with these thoughts

1 . God Rested on 7th Sabbath -Gen 2:3
2. God Sanctified the 7th day Sabbath Gen 2: 3
3. God blessed the 7th day Sabbath Exo 20:11
4. God hallowed the 7th day Sabbath (made Holy) Exodus 20:11
5. God spoke to Abraham and he kept God's Commandments Gen 26:5
6. In Egypt the Jews kept the Sabbath Exo 5:5
7. Exo Before The ten Commandments on Sinai the Jews kept the Sabbath Exo 16:23
8. God provides double manna on the 6th day and none on the 7th day Sabbath so people would not be working collecting manna on the Sabbath. Exo 16: 22-26
9. God is upset when some Jews ignored him and went out to hunt for manna on the 7th day Sabbath Exo Exo 16:27-30
10. God gives Ten Commandments to Moses Exo 20
11. Ceremonial laws given AFTER Sinai so not part of the Moral Law.

The 7th day Sabbath was given before the Ceremonial laws were given and is not a show of things to come like Col 2:16-17 REQUIRE.

The saints well be keeping God's Commandments and will enter the gates to Heaven

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Tools
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I'll conclude there is NO PLACE in the Bible where the 1st day of the week is called the Lord's day. The Lord's day is the Sabbath

Mat 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Tools
Mar 2:28
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Tools
Luk 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Christians are supposed to keep the Sabbath for the SAME reasons they shouldn't lie, steal, commit adultery, dishonor their parents etc. but you aren't screaming about grace about those are you? You keep God's Commandments BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM.

Post script. What passes for the modern day gift of tongues isn't what occurred in the Bible either ;)
Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy:
A Research Article: “St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy” by D Landsborough was published in “Journal of Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry”. In the article Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul’s ecstatic visions. Paul’s physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy. The article can be viewed at http://goo.gl/eCpz0v

 
Which all say the same thing. No man judge you in how you eat (kosher) or in respect of a holy day (Hannukah, Passover, etc.) or the sabbath day...

This is just one verse, I simplified it for you to one verse. Paul is telling the church that they need not worry about folks judging them for not following these things as the body of the church is of CHRIST, that His Grace gives you salvation, not your works.

You keep trying to limit your own church to the works of the Old Covenant to keep yourself "clean" so you could then enter the presence of God, but Christ cleansed you, you no longer need to follow those.

If the rule or commandment is one that is not of a moral character (like the Sabbath, or eating kosher) you no longer need to follow those rules.

The church also began meeting on "The Lord's Day" (Sunday) because Christ was raised on Sunday, and met with them the following week on the 1st day. The Christians began meeting on "the Lord's Day" thereafter and created a new tradition. This happened while Christ himself was still among the apostles, before he was "taken up", he certainly could have informed them that the Sabbath and eating kosher still mattered, but instead told them it was not what went into their mouths that was the problem, but what came out of their mouths, and never once told them to stop meeting on Sunday.... which, again, they began doing before he was "taken up"...

I still maintain that you really should speak of this to your pastor, not your local Buddhist on some political website. It isn't me that needs to care about this, it is you.

No Damo the practice of meeting on Sunday started in Rome. The Early Christians met on the 7th day Sabbath. The Jews revolted and Rome persecuted them. The Romans persecuted Christian because they associated them with Jews. They Jews and Christians had a common day of worship and a common Bible and a common origin The church in Rome sought to avoid persecution so they changed their day of worship. They eventually gained influence over other churches and forced a change then Constantine wanted to unify Rome under one Religion so he combined Paganism and Christianity. His mother was a Christian so the official religion became Christianity and he made a law in A.D. 321 that made Sunday the official day of rest for the Roman Empire. The Catholic church in A.D. 364, the Council of Laodicea decreed that Christians should not "Judaize" (rest on the Sabbath) but should work on Saturday and instead honor the Lord's Day which they say is (Sunday). (Cannon 29) But Catholic hold tradition of equal importance as scripture.

The Jerusalem Christian church was the most pure. They fled to the mountains in 70 AD like Christ told them to when armies surrounded Jerusalem. They went to Pella. There is a book where a Catholic priest complains that they kept the Commandments including the Sabbath. That book was written 350 years after Christ's resurrection. If you are interested (and I doubt you are) you can get a book by Sammuel Bacchiocchi. He is an Italian and he grew up across the street from Rome. He wrote From Sabbath to Sunday, based on his doctoral thesis from the Pontifical Gregorian University. The Vatican opened the Pontifical Gregorian University and I "think" he was the only Protestant to get a Phd from there. (not sure) But he had access to the ancient manuscripts and book in the Vatican library. He documents the historical change from Sabbath to Sunday. His book has the imprimatur of the Catholic Church.
Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy:
A Research Article: “St Paul and temporal lobe epilepsy” by D Landsborough was published in “Journal of Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry”. In the article Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul’s ecstatic visions. Paul’s physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy. The article can be viewed at http://goo.gl/eCpz0v

:blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah::blah:
 
AI Overview



In the early Roman Church,
Sabbath (Saturday) observance gradually faded as Sunday (the Lord's Day) became the primary day for Christian worship and rest, influenced by the Resurrection, but some Roman practices like Sabbath fasting emerged to distance from Jewish customs, with official decrees (like Constantine's 321 AD Sunday rest law and Council of Laodicea canons around 350 AD) solidifying Sunday observance while discouraging "Judaizing" on the Sabbath.
 
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