Marital Counseling for Libertarians and Social Conservatives

of course, there is the products of religous thinking, which may be ideas for policy. but these will still have to go through the legislative process and reconciliation with the constution. Anything that is overtly just "establishing religion" like a law that you must believe in x superntaral deity, is cleary unconstitutional.
 
Neocons are full of fail on gay marriage though. Gay men are denied equal protection under the law, if they cannot marry their significant others.
 
The Founding Fathers were actually smart enough to establish a clear understanding that our Government can't establish a religion. Because of that guarantee, we most certainly CAN determine our laws and legislation, based on our personal viewpoints, regardless of whether they are influenced by our religious dogma.

EVERY American has the RIGHT to petition for redress of grievances... they are not PROHIBITED because their grievance happens to be a conflict of their religious viewpoints!
You are incorrect, the founders created an amendment that said that we can make no laws that conflict with the free exercise of conflicting dogma. When laws are created to support specific dogma over others it is a violation of the limits set by the founders.

You have the right to follow your dogma, I have the right to follow mine. We create conflict when we attempt to force the other to follow the dogma of either belief system by establishing legislation, and we violate the first of the Amendments.
 
Yes, that was a post, and this entire 'topic' is in a 'thread' ...there are no 'ins and outs' here, and I wouldn't say you're not as educated as most others here, the bar is set very low, and gets lower every time apple and jarhead post. Basically, if you have passed 8th grade in public school, you are ahead of 'most' posters here.

Thanks for the honorable mention. There's no higher compliment than a doofus claiming I'm one.

Regardless of why we have it or what it does (which I am not sure I agree with you on), the problem is in axing it completely, without anything to take its place. You see, a lot of people out there, think the DoE is equal to "educate the children" so any time you start talking crazy talk about eliminating it, the emotive reaction is that of alarm and hysteria. Politically, it is very hard to get elected when you create alarm and hysteria. That's why you aren't going to likely see ANY politician get up there and say... We're gonna cut this and eliminate that... there is always a consequence for ANYTHING you decide to do away with completely, and your opposition will exploit the hell out of that, and the stupid emotive electorate will probably respond, because they don't like to be nervous about what will happen when we do this. It's just how things work in the real world. I am all with you from a philosophical standpoint... we could do without a LOT of the things we're currently doing, but unreasonable draconian extremism is not the best approach to this. I personally believe we should seek solutions from the private sector for these 'needs' which enabled the gov't bureaucracy. But that's just me.... I can work toward reducing the size and scope of government without going nuts and wanting to slash everything at once. Why? Because I am smart enough to realize that is the ONLY way it can be done in a nation full of emotive spoiled nitwits who vote.

Well, there again, some states would vote to keep the DoE because it's a pretty sweet deal for them. I don't think Marx advocated the United States Department of Education or ANY of our Constitutional amendments.... I could be wrong, but I don't think he was around at the time. Yes, they are established on a Marxist Socialist thinking, I understand what you're saying, but what you have to realize is, nearly half this country is brainwashed into thinking Marxist Socialism is the way to go! They're all for it! And while you and other Libertarians sat sulking in your basements on election night, while Social Conservatives held their noses and voted for John McCain, the nitwits of the nation formed a coalition of the stupid and elected Obama! If you are still sulking in your underwear on Election Day 2012, he will be reelected! You need to be deciding if you want to try and work with others to start moving in the direction of limited government, or if you want to revel in your personal ideology and watch us become the United Socialist States of America.

As for individual States having control of education consider the confusion and absurdity that would abound. While one State was teaching inches and feet and yards the other State would be teaching millimeters and centimeters and meters. Products made in one State would not be compatible to products made in another State.

Then there's history. We'd have the Southern States' version of history and the Northern States' version of history. And no doubt there would be at least one State that didn't believe in government education. The poor would remain poor as they couldn't afford an education. Of course, that would supply plenty of cheap labor.....we could go back to the days of peasants and landowners.

You're true to your name, Dixie.
 
I don't think I have ever stated anything of the sort, backpedal backpedal backpedal like you want here.


You most certainly did argue that the majority has a right to express it's views through legislation and that any limit on that was a violation of their rights. But whatever.... We can move on to whatever new argument you want to make, but you did not make one with this post.

So, what valid state interest is served by prohibiting gays from marrying? That's not a strawman question. It is the question the state must answer in a challenge.

The Constitution and legal precedent do support my position.

The courts have already held that marriage is a fundamental right and always has been. No right would be created with gay marriage that does not already exist. Gay marriage would simply remove a barrier to marriage that only serves to discriminate against homosexuals.

It is all very clear, despite the fact that idiots like you try to muddy the waters with nonsense.

Now how about the questions that expose the silliness of your slippery slope argument? Or are your claims on where gay marriage will lead just my straw man? Just because it is a weak argument does not make it a straw man. It was your argument.
 
You most certainly did argue that the majority has a right to express it's views through legislation and that any limit on that was a violation of their rights. But whatever.... We can move on to whatever new argument you want to make, but you did not make one with this post.

So, what valid state interest is served by prohibiting gays from marrying? That's not a strawman question. It is the question the state must answer in a challenge.

The Constitution and legal precedent do support my position.

The courts have already held that marriage is a fundamental right and always has been. No right would be created with gay marriage that does not already exist. Gay marriage would simply remove a barrier to marriage that only serves to discriminate against homosexuals.

It is all very clear, despite the fact that idiots like you try to muddy the waters with nonsense.

Now how about the questions that expose the silliness of your slippery slope argument? Or are your claims on where gay marriage will lead just my straw man? Just because it is a weak argument does not make it a straw man. It was your argument.

Yup, its true. Speeding, is not a crime, but its against the law and is a civil infraction. If you get a speeding ticket, you do not have a criminal record.
 
You are incorrect, the founders created an amendment that said that we can make no laws that conflict with the free exercise of conflicting dogma. When laws are created to support specific dogma over others it is a violation of the limits set by the founders.

You have the right to follow your dogma, I have the right to follow mine. We create conflict when we attempt to force the other to follow the dogma of either belief system by establishing legislation, and we violate the first of the Amendments.

No, you are incorrect, and I am right as usual, Dumo.

The Founders created an amendment which says Congress can't establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise of it. There is nothing in that amendment regarding laws based on specific religious dogma, and you would have to strike down nearly every law passed by Congress, if that were the case. That said, opposing gay marriage is not a "specific" religious dogma! It is somewhat tied to a religious dogma, but so are laws against murder and theft! Your idea would be untenable, and we would be a completely immoral nation, because EVERY law could be contested on those grounds, if that were the case. It's about the most stupid thing you've ever uttered here.

And WE THE PEOPLE have a fucking right to establish whatever goddamn law we want to establish, as long as it doesn't endorse a religion or prohibit religious exercise. EACH of us, has a GOD-GIVEN right to voice our opinion in the political arena, and it doesn't matter if our opinion is taken verbatim, right out of our religious documents!
 
What about the dogma of statism, or fiat currency keynesianism? Can law be created that enforce those dogmas?

those are all dogmas that do have oppositional dogmas.
 
You most certainly did argue that the majority has a right to express it's views through legislation and that any limit on that was a violation of their rights. But whatever.... We can move on to whatever new argument you want to make, but you did not make one with this post.

Both the majority AND the minority have the right to express it's view through legislation, and restrictions on either one is a violation of their 1st Amendment rights to petition for redress.

So, what valid state interest is served by prohibiting gays from marrying? That's not a strawman question. It is the question the state must answer in a challenge.

The State licenses marriage, and marriage is the union of a man and woman. To change the definition of marriage, is to change the premise on which the state is issuing a license. That is the state's interest, now shut the fuck up about it.

The Constitution and legal precedent do support my position.

No they don't.

The courts have already held that marriage is a fundamental right and always has been. No right would be created with gay marriage that does not already exist. Gay marriage would simply remove a barrier to marriage that only serves to discriminate against homosexuals.

Yes... MARRIAGE...the union of a man and woman, is a fundamental right and always has been! Gay same-sex unions are NOT MARRIAGE! States do not prohibit a person from obtaining a marriage license on the basis of their sexuality, so I don't get where you think they are being discriminated against. Any gay person is equally able to marry someone of the opposite sex, which is what MARRIAGE is!

It is all very clear, despite the fact that idiots like you try to muddy the waters with nonsense.

If it were all so clear, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

Now how about the questions that expose the silliness of your slippery slope argument? Or are your claims on where gay marriage will lead just my straw man? Just because it is a weak argument does not make it a straw man. It was your argument.

I've already told you, the questions you posed are STRAWMEN! They seek to compare the issue of homosexual same-sex unions to civil rights and other clearly defined constitutional rights, but the constitution does not stipulate that all sexual deviants are equal, does it? Nope... it doesn't!
 
You are incorrect, the founders created an amendment that said that we can make no laws that conflict with the free exercise of conflicting dogma. When laws are created to support specific dogma over others it is a violation of the limits set by the founders.

You have the right to follow your dogma, I have the right to follow mine. We create conflict when we attempt to force the other to follow the dogma of either belief system by establishing legislation, and we violate the first of the Amendments.

For some reason this reminded me of the one Star Trek shows where the people from a world had both black and white pigmentation in their skin.
One side of their bodies were white and the other side was black. Right down the middle.

The division within the society was that a segment of the population had their coloration on the opposite side of the other part of the population.
 
For some reason this reminded me of the one Star Trek shows where the people from a world had both black and white pigmentation in their skin.
One side of their bodies were white and the other side was black. Right down the middle.

The division within the society was that a segment of the population had their coloration on the opposite side of the other part of the population.

I liked it when they went to the gangster planet. ANd when they went to child planet where the adults corroded away at 30. Bonk bonk on the head.
 
For some reason this reminded me of the one Star Trek shows where the people from a world had both black and white pigmentation in their skin.
One side of their bodies were white and the other side was black. Right down the middle.

The division within the society was that a segment of the population had their coloration on the opposite side of the other part of the population.

I remember that episode!
 
No, you are incorrect, and I am right as usual, Dumo.

The Founders created an amendment which says Congress can't establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise of it. There is nothing in that amendment regarding laws based on specific religious dogma, and you would have to strike down nearly every law passed by Congress, if that were the case. That said, opposing gay marriage is not a "specific" religious dogma! It is somewhat tied to a religious dogma, but so are laws against murder and theft! Your idea would be untenable, and we would be a completely immoral nation, because EVERY law could be contested on those grounds, if that were the case. It's about the most stupid thing you've ever uttered here.

And WE THE PEOPLE have a fucking right to establish whatever goddamn law we want to establish, as long as it doesn't endorse a religion or prohibit religious exercise. EACH of us, has a GOD-GIVEN right to voice our opinion in the political arena, and it doesn't matter if our opinion is taken verbatim, right out of our religious documents!

The prohibition goes beyond endorsement, it says "promote the establishment of", to endorse something is promoting its establishment, but its not the only thing that would promote its establishment.
 
The prohibition goes beyond endorsement, it says "promote the establishment of", to endorse something is promoting its establishment, but its not the only thing that would promote its establishment.

Jarhead, you have to actually understand the meaning of the words before you can comprehend what the amendment says. "Establishment" means "to establish" or, to 'fix something in place.' In this case, it pertains to Religion.

Now, you have to put this in context of the times, and why we were forming an amendment to a Constitution to begin with. The place from which we declared independence, established a religion for the people, The Church of England. I'll let you Google them, and discover what the inherent problems were, with a government establishment of a national church, but it was one of the primary reasons we declared independence and formed our own nation. (The other being taxation.)

The Founding Fathers intended, literally, for the 1st Amendment to mean, our Congress can never 'create, promote, endorse, or establish' a national religion. That does NOT mean that we can't pass laws or create legislation based on religious teachings, religious ethics, religious beliefs, or religious thought! The more you examine that viewpoint, the more ridiculous and absurd it becomes, because almost EVERY law, is rooted in someone's religious beliefs or philosophy... WHY? Because, religious belief centers around what is "right" and our laws are established to distinguish what is "right" from what is "wrong!" There is no practical way to divorce religious ethics and teachings from our laws and rules governing our society.... it's impossible to do so, and remain a civilized society.

We need look no further than George Washington's Farewell Address, for what the intent of the Founding Fathers was, with the Establishment Clause.

Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?​

Now how can anyone who isn't completely retarded, read those words, from our PREMIER Founding Father, and argue that our government is forbidden from passing laws and legislation on the basis of religious beliefs or principles? The 1st Amendment actually makes it possible to do so, without the fear it will lead to a national religion being established. That's the brilliance and beauty of the Constitution, in my opinion.
 
For some reason this reminded me of the one Star Trek shows where the people from a world had both black and white pigmentation in their skin.
One side of their bodies were white and the other side was black. Right down the middle.

The division within the society was that a segment of the population had their coloration on the opposite side of the other part of the population.

:cheer:CAPTAIN KIRK FOR PRESIDENT!:cheer:

Spock: Vice President

Chekov: Department of Defense
Resume: Navigator (TOS); Weapons Officer (I); First Officer, USS Reliant (II); Navigator, Weapons Officer, and Chief of Security (III-VI)

Scotty: Dept. of Energy
Resume: Chief Engineer, Second Officer

McCoy: Newly created Department of Medical Marijuana
Resume: Chief Medical Officer
 
No, you are incorrect, and I am right as usual, Dumo.

The Founders created an amendment which says Congress can't establish a religion or prohibit the free exercise of it. There is nothing in that amendment regarding laws based on specific religious dogma, and you would have to strike down nearly every law passed by Congress, if that were the case. That said, opposing gay marriage is not a "specific" religious dogma! It is somewhat tied to a religious dogma, but so are laws against murder and theft! Your idea would be untenable, and we would be a completely immoral nation, because EVERY law could be contested on those grounds, if that were the case. It's about the most stupid thing you've ever uttered here.

And WE THE PEOPLE have a fucking right to establish whatever goddamn law we want to establish, as long as it doesn't endorse a religion or prohibit religious exercise. EACH of us, has a GOD-GIVEN right to voice our opinion in the political arena, and it doesn't matter if our opinion is taken verbatim, right out of our religious documents!
Again, if your dogma conflicts with mine it is a prohibition of the free exercise of my religion. You cannot, no matter how much you want to, just legislate your dogma onto others who believe differently than you. If we could, then we would be a theocracy, it would leave the door open for things like Sharia Law in legislation...
 
Again, if your dogma conflicts with mine it is a prohibition of the free exercise of my religion. You cannot, no matter how much you want to, just legislate your dogma onto others who believe differently than you. If we could, then we would be a theocracy, it would leave the door open for things like Sharia Law in legislation...

Dumo, you are not only wrong, you compound being wrong with being completely full of shit about what you think is right. Stunning!

"DOGMA" is specific core principles followed by believers of a religion. It is never established as a "law" to be followed by non-believers of the religion. It's just NOT! EVER! Now, we DO establish laws which compliment our various "dogma" but that is because our "dogma" is what we believe to be "right" as opposed to what we believe to be "wrong," and there is no way to distinguish the two otherwise. I can't help that Christianity teaches it is not acceptable to murder people, that doesn't prohibit me from passing a law against murder because it is found in some religious dogma! What you are saying is fucked up beyond recognition.

And YES I fucking CAN and DO OFTEN pass laws based on religious dogma, religious principles, religious ethics, religious teachings, with religious influence.. I do it and the general population does it ALL THE FUCKING TIME you goofy bitch! And we've been doing it for over 200 years!
 
Both the majority AND the minority have the right to express it's view through legislation, and restrictions on either one is a violation of their 1st Amendment rights to petition for redress.

Now you are back to unlimited majority rule. Our government is limited by the rights of the individual. Any law that violates those rights should be overtruned or repealed, regardless of the majority's views. Doing so does not violate anyone's 1st amendment rights. Your argument is absurd.


The State licenses marriage, and marriage is the union of a man and woman. To change the definition of marriage, is to change the premise on which the state is issuing a license. That is the state's interest, now shut the fuck up about it.

LOL. You have to be kidding. That's not going to cut it, retard. The courts do not recognize whatever whim the state chooses as a valid state interest.

No they don't.

Yeah they do. 9th and 14th amendments, Loving vs Virginia and Lawrence v Texas.


Yes... MARRIAGE...the union of a man and woman, is a fundamental right and always has been! Gay same-sex unions are NOT MARRIAGE! States do not prohibit a person from obtaining a marriage license on the basis of their sexuality, so I don't get where you think they are being discriminated against. Any gay person is equally able to marry someone of the opposite sex, which is what MARRIAGE is!

Been over it... This is the same argument used by Virginia in Loving. That is, blacks were not denied the right marry and they enjoyed the same right to marry as whites. That's not going to fly.



If it were all so clear, we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we?

It's clear. We are having this conversation because you insist on keeping your head up your ass.


I've already told you, the questions you posed are STRAWMEN! They seek to compare the issue of homosexual same-sex unions to civil rights and other clearly defined constitutional rights, but the constitution does not stipulate that all sexual deviants are equal, does it? Nope... it doesn't!

Was the right to marry someone of another race a clearly defined right prior to Loving v Virginia? The constitution says that we are entitled to due process and equal protection of the laws. That includes homosexuals, swingers, people who don't like oral and any other "deviants."

Homosexuality is not an illegal act and the state has no legitimate reason to exclude them from all rights enjoyed by heterosexuals.

But... those questions were not the ones I was talking about. You claimed that allowing homosexual marraige will lead to people marrying children, pets and even mailboxes. Laws against homsexual sex have been overturned, yet laws concerning sex with children have only grown more restrictive. Laws concerning bestaility have not been overturned. Why is that? The court has ruled that homosexual sex may not be singled out for prosecution. Why haven't other laws concerning sex been overturned as you claim would happen with marriage?
 
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