Crazy Trump's tariffs are backfiring on the U.S.

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't have the slightest problem with limited tariffs duly authorized by Congress to maintain critical strategic industries in America.

Trump's chaotic and legally dubious global trade war is not something anyone was clamouring for.

A difference the MAGAts cannot grasp. IMO, it's because they are all poorly educated sheeple. Sad.

 

[cawacko]

That's certainly one use for them.

Have you noticed that unions are now starting to support Republicans (specifically the MAGA movement within the party)? Why do you think that is? Hint: tariffs (USA manufacturing)

This statement shows an ignorance of how the USA became the "greatest nation on Earth". The USA had two "industrial revolutions". One during the early 1800s and another during the latter part of the 1800s. Tariffs were simultaneously a major source of revenue during both periods of time. Thus, tariffs did NOT have a negative impact on jobs and growth. Tariffs also didn't have any such "negative impact" during Trump's first term either (in which jobs increased and the economy grew).

History shows time and time again that tariffs are a GREAT thing for this country, and that this country has economically been at its strongest when it has implemented tariffs to the greatest extent.

This country's overall (very gradual) "downfall" (into worse economic times) didn't start to occur until after the "temporary" income tax was implemented in 1913 and money began to be increasingly siphoned from the pocketbooks of "Main Street" US citizens.

Stop believing the globalist elitist lies that "tariffs are bad" and that "tariffs are taxes on US consumers". It's all a load of garbage. Tariffs are GREAT for the USA and its consumers, and that's been proven time and time again throughout the USA's history.

This should have been a clue to you. Prior to 2016, most prominent Republicans were globalist elitist "RINO" types who didn't want tariffs fucking up their "pro-cheap-foreign-labor-engorged" pocketbooks... (e.g. Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan, John McCain, "Dubya", etc etc). However, AFTER 2016, a President who actually stands for We The People got elected and actually implemented the pro-USA-worker policies (such as tariffs) that had been missing for MANY decades (could even say over a whole century). He began to slow down the exfiltration of money from Main Street and shifted the money back towards the pocketbooks of Main Street.

This is why unions have, in recent history, supported Democrats (due to the pro-USA-worker perception of the party at the time). This is also why unions, as of now, are increasingly supporting Republicans (due to the recent MAGA-infused shift in the pro-USA-worker perception away from Democrats and towards Republicans).

If you want to WIN, then stick with the Main Street loving MAGA and their wonderful pro-USA-worker TARIFFS. If you want to LOSE, then stick with the cheap-foreign-labor-loving RINOs (aka Team Democrat).

Correct.

Correct.

The U.S boomed in the 1800's because of industrialization and we had land, natural resources and a growing population. It wasn't because of tariffs. If tariffs were some magical formula then all countries would be piling them on and thriving, but that's not what happens.

At the end of the day tariffs are a tax on businesses and consumers that rely on imports. We're told this story that it will bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. but that's just not the case.

 

[martin]

One of the interesting things about being on a board like this for so long is seeing how things change over the years. In 2008 uscitizen (old school heads will remember him), a liberal leaning guy, started a thread about U.S. - China trade and how it supposedly cost over 2 million U.S. jobs.

In that thread someone wrote this:

You think this was an accident, or somehow all unintentional?

This was exactly what the wall street republicans, and corporate-sponsored Dems had in mind when the passed NAFTA, WTO, and China MFN.

A downward pressure on labor costs and wages in the United States.

People like Cawacko, Damocles, and Stuperfreak actually bought into the nonsense that William F Buckley, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Alan Greenspan were actually valiantly trying to improve the status, power, and wage potential of america's working middle class. Is it possible to be any more foolish that to believe scions of the conservative movement and america's rich investor were invested in improving the power and status of Joe and Jane working class american?
So then we get Trump, and people like Bernie, claiming these trade deals are screwing Americans and they ride that populist wave. And now these same folks complaining about free trade are complaining about tariffs and going after China etc. (except for when Biden does it).

Here is my question, and maybe I am missing something. For those on the left who complain about tariffs now, why the silence during the Biden years when he left them in place?

Probably the strong recovery of the economy during those years.

 

[QP!]

What is accurate to say is that the last 3 Republicans inherited strong and growing economies from the prior Potus but then those Republican Potus handed off struggling and declining and bad economies to the next Dem Potus who then had to fix it.

Bush Sr. Bush Jr. Trump all inherited very strong growing economies and handed over crap to the incoming Dem Potus and now Trump is doing that again this term.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Your reply is appropriate for the dolts who continue to believe in Crazy Trump's business prowess.

AMEN!

When he posts that image...it means he has no reasonable response.

 

[QP!]

So is Trump's Tariff War good or bad for America?

And while Trump drives our enemies closer together that is not the worst of it. He is also taking allies, prior administrations worked hard to keep out of China's influence, in to them.

While also dividing the US allies into camps who are actively trying to find a way to never have to rely on the US again.

 

[christiefan915]

Tariffs can work in limited ways to protect certain industries. It's why unions, are often their Democratic supporters in office, supported them. But on the whole they have a negative impact on jobs and growth.

What's funny is how the politics have flipped. Prior to 2016, most Republicans weren't fans of tariffs while many Democrats supported them. Then Biden kept nearly all of Trump’s tariffs in place and even added more, yet Democrats barely said a word. Now that Trump is back in office, tariffs are suddenly bad again.

Representing, I disagreed with Biden about keeping trump's tariffs in place.

 

[QP!]

I don't have the slightest problem with limited tariffs duly authorized by Congress to maintain critical strategic industries in America.

Trump's chaotic and legally dubious global trade war is not something anyone was clamouring for.

Trump's approach is so beyond stupid that only the poorly educated could think it is good.

He could easily do all this tariff stuff thru his control of Congress. That would make it enormously hard to undue by any future Admin as the level of control Trump has over his Congress is not something we are likely to see in the future for a long, long time.

So if Trump used Congress then businesses would at least have some certainty and thus be able to plan, invest and build in America.

Instead, because Trump is stupid, he does this all thru POTUS EO, meaning which ever POTUS follows next, whether Dem or a republican, can simply undue via EO.

You will NOT see corporations or investment capital come in to the US and invest and build any big projects when, before the concrete dries the next POTUS might undue it all. So instead they all give lip service to Trump that 'one day we will build' while then doing nothing.

Again Trump could have made it easier for him to get this win by using Congress but because he is stupid he did not understand that.

 

[gfm7175]

Trump's idea of tariffs is plainly stupid.

It's not his idea; it's history, if you'd ever care to learn it.

He mixes it with his crazy mood swings, expecting other nations to simply accept what he does.

Here, you display your complete lack of understanding of the concept of LEVERAGE. If those nations know what is good for them, then they will gladly accept whatever Trump does with tariffs.

He moved them up and down a long way according to his moods.

Here, you display your complete lack of understanding of the concept of NEGOTIATION.

He is, as usual, a bully.

If you have the upper hand (leverage), then you CAN "be a bully".

Other nations will not be bullied.

Yes, they will. They don't have the upper hand (leverage).

They are moving to more sane and reliable countries to trade with.

Russia? China? THOSE "sane and reliable" countries?

 

[QP!]

It's not his idea; it's history, if you'd ever care to learn it.

Here, you display your complete lack of understanding of the concept of LEVERAGE. If those nations know what is good for them, then they will gladly accept whatever Trump does with tariffs.

Here, you display your complete lack of understanding of the concept of NEGOTIATION.

If you have the upper hand (leverage), then you CAN "be a bully".

Yes, they will. They don't have the upper hand (leverage).

Russia? China? THOSE "sane and reliable" countries?

History shows that as the era of tariffs was ended post WW2, lead by US efforts to open world trade and freer markets, that the US grew from an emerging regional power to the worlds dominant economy all based on a principle that cooperation and not bullying and dominating would 'lift all boats', and the US rose the most on that bet.

Do you agree that is what happened during the years where markets moved from more closed and using tariffs to more open and freer trade?

That many countries grew immensely more rich with the US getting the largest share of that fortune and growth?

 

[gfm7175]

Two deep recessions under Dumbya Bush and Trump 1.0, and a modest recession under Poppy Bush. I'm not counting the deep recession of 1982-83 under Reagan.

Clinton, Obama, Biden did not cause any recessions on their watch. That's 20 years collectively without a recession.

^^^
**Democrat blows up a balloon and keeps blowing it up until it is about to pop**
** Democrat steps aside, Republican enters**
**Balloon finishes blowing up and then pops**
Democrat: "THAT DAMN REPUBLICAN POPPED THE BALLOON!!!!!!!!"

 

[Nordberg]

The U.S boomed in the 1800's because of industrialization and we had land, natural resources and a growing population. It wasn't because of tariffs. If tariffs were some magical formula then all countries would be piling them on and thriving, but that's not what happens.

At the end of the day tariffs are a tax on businesses and consumers that rely on imports. We're told this story that it will bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. but that's just not the case.

Tariffs, carefully targeted, can protect vulnerable industries. Blanket tariffs do not work. I did not think anyone was stupid enough to believe they are a good idea. Then Trump came along.
Trump lacks economic education and does not do any homework. He is an unevolved person acting as he did when he was a high school bully who did little schoolwork. He always skated.
He does not respect the leadership of other countries, except Putin and Kim. He insults Canadian and Mexican leaders. Carney is degreed in Economics. Sheinbaum graduated in physics and energy engineering.
Trump is a con man and a sexual molester.

 

[cawacko]

Tariffs, carefully targeted, can protect vulnerable industries. Blanket tariffs do not work. I did not think anyone was stupid enough to believe they are a good idea. Then Trump came along.
Trump lacks economic education and does not do any homework. He is an unevolved person acting as he did when he was a high school bully who did little schoolwork. He always skated.
He does not respect the leadership of other countries, except Putin and Kim. He insults Canadian and Mexican leaders. Carney is degreed in Economics. Sheinbaum graduated in physics and energy engineering.
Trump is a con man and a sexual molester.

"Carefully targeted" tariffs are not a free lunch. They come at a cost. Consumers pay higher prices, businesses pay more for materials and jobs in other sectors can be lost.

So for all the talk ITT about how dumb everyone else is, it's interesting no one wants to recognize those costs (trade-offs) when they argue for protectionism ("carefully targeted tariffs")

 

[cawacko]

Trump's approach is so beyond stupid that only the poorly educated could think it is good.

He could easily do all this tariff stuff thru his control of Congress. That would make it enormously hard to undue by any future Admin as the level of control Trump has over his Congress is not something we are likely to see in the future for a long, long time.

So if Trump used Congress then businesses would at least have some certainty and thus be able to plan, invest and build in America.

Instead, because Trump is stupid, he does this all thru POTUS EO, meaning which ever POTUS follows next, whether Dem or a republican, can simply undue via EO.

You will NOT see corporations or investment capital come in to the US and invest and build any big projects when, before the concrete dries the next POTUS might undue it all. So instead they all give lip service to Trump that 'one day we will build' while then doing nothing.

Again Trump could have made it easier for him to get this win by using Congress but because he is stupid he did not understand that.

I in no way support what Trump is doing on trade. That said, it wouldn't be 'easy' to push this through Congress. There are still free trade Republicans in Congress.

Presidents from both parties have used executive authority on trade. You’re right that any EO can be undone by the next President, but that hasn’t stopped Presidents from using them. (And in this case Biden basically left all Trump's tariffs in place, so that can happen)

 

[gfm7175]

The U.S boomed in the 1800's because of industrialization and we had land, natural resources and a growing population.

Yup, and its citizens weren't taxed to ever loving piss (because the country's government was being funded by tariffs instead). So tariffs are quite relevant as well.

It wasn't because of tariffs.

Tariffs were an important part of it. There's a reason why the founders of the USA left Britain.

If tariffs were some magical formula then all countries would be piling them on and thriving, but that's not what happens.

Almost all countries utilize tariffs. Other countries are willing to pay for access to our resources and our #1-in-the-world consumer base, and they SHOULD pay for them. It's also important to regrow our own industry and to protect our own businesses as we do so. We need a THIRD "industrial revolution" to begin in this country, and we needed it to start DECADES ago.

At the end of the day tariffs are a tax on businesses and consumers that rely on imports.

Tariffs are a tax on importers.

We're told this story that it will bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S.

... and it WILL. Tariffs were an integral part of growing USA manufacturing during both industrial revolutions of the 1800s.

but that's just not the case.

It IS the case. History proves it.

 

[BartenderElite]

They were always based more on Trump's paranoia that we're always getting "ripped off" than anything in reality.

He's such a bad President. He does not understand economics.

 

[gfm7175]

"Carefully targeted" tariffs are not a free lunch. They come at a cost. Consumers pay higher prices, businesses pay more for materials and jobs in other sectors can be lost.

So for all the talk ITT about how dumb everyone else is, it's interesting no one wants to recognize those costs (trade-offs) when they argue for protectionism ("carefully targeted tariffs")

This is simply not true... it has never shown up in any hard data from Trump's first term OR this term. What actually happens is businesses absorb most/all of the cost (it very largely DOESN'T get passed onto the consumer). Businesses will gladly take a small hit in profits instead of retail-pricing their consumers out of their market and thus taking an even larger hit in profits.

Again, both industrial revolutions during the 1800s occurred when the USA was tariffing the ever loving SHIT out of other countries (to protect their own growing industries and to keep money in the pockets of their own citizens instead of taxing the ever loving SHIT out of them). History seems pretty clear to me.

 

[archives]

Tariffs can work in limited ways to protect certain industries. It's why unions, are often their Democratic supporters in office, supported them. But on the whole they have a negative impact on jobs and growth.

What's funny is how the politics have flipped. Prior to 2016, most Republicans weren't fans of tariffs while many Democrats supported them. Then Biden kept nearly all of Trump’s tariffs in place and even added more, yet Democrats barely said a word. Now that Trump is back in office, tariffs are suddenly bad again.

And previously, back in the day it was the opposite, GOP favored tariffs

A big difference is that Trump’s tariffs are usually more restrictive, often confusing, and most importantly, inconsistent, it is difficult at times to determine what the tariff is on what at any given time.

If the goal was to stop America from “getting ripped off,” it is perplexing to understand completely how the nation with the best economy in the world with the highest GDP and near full employment was a victim

 

[cawacko]

They were always based more on Trump's paranoia that we're always getting "ripped off" than anything in reality.

He's such a bad President. He does not understand economics.

Bernie Sanders has said for years that the U.S. is getting ripped off in trade. Does he not understand economics in your view?

I'll repost something for context. This is a thread from 2008 started by uscitizen that said U.S. - China trade cost over 2 million American jobs. Cypress wrote this in 2008 (and yes, I am openly pro free trade):

You think this was an accident, or somehow all unintentional?

This was exactly what the wall street republicans, and corporate-sponsored Dems had in mind when the passed NAFTA, WTO, and China MFN.

A downward pressure on labor costs and wages in the United States.

People like Cawacko, Damocles, and Stuperfreak actually bought into the nonsense that William F Buckley, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, and Alan Greenspan were actually valiantly trying to improve the status, power, and wage potential of america's working middle class. Is it possible to be any more foolish that to believe scions of the conservative movement and america's rich investor were invested in improving the power and status of Joe and Jane working class american?

Does this type of rhetoric, rejecting our trade deals, show he also doesn't understand economics in your opinion?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The U.S boomed in the 1800's because of industrialization and we had land, natural resources and a growing population. It wasn't because of tariffs. If tariffs were some magical formula then all countries would be piling them on and thriving, but that's not what happens.

At the end of the day tariffs are a tax on businesses and consumers that rely on imports. We're told this story that it will bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S. but that's just not the case.

Agreed it won't help Middle-Class and lower income Americans. Tariffs are protectionist and often used by emerging nations to encourage organic industries. The US isn't an emerging economy; it's a global economic superpower. Tariffs help the rich, but don't do shit for everyday Americans.