APP - Do biological viruses actually exist?

I post links to multiple scientific papers that show how viruses are isolated and sequenced and your response is to disappear for a couple of months and then come back pretending no such evidence was ever presented.

Why do you not disprove the science with your own evidence? Why do you simply repost the same 2-3 sources over and over and over?
Why have your sources never addressed any of the hundreds of scientific articles I could cite?

Here is the post where I cited 20 science articles that you have ignored.
Because his entire argument is that one study wasn't done well enough for him, therefore no studies that confirm the theory could ever be conducted. He also just skips past the actual DNA of the viruses, how they can actually map the genome and predict what symptoms might arise from a novel virus, then test that theory by infecting plants or animals with the virus. That kind of thing doesn't matter, because one study wasn't done up to the standard that he, the uneducated not scientist, thinks it should be.
 
Virologists define isolation in a way that no one else does. To see where this all started, we need to look at the work of Franklin Enders. Quoting from an article that gets into his work:
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For over 60 years, virologists struggled to convincingly demonstrate that they were working with actual pathogenic “viruses” in their experiments. In fact, there wasn't even consensus on what a “virus” was until 1957. However, in 1954, virologist John Franklin Enders, while supposedly working with the measles “virus,” introduced an illogical experimental setup that allowed researchers to claim that they were working with the entities that they believed were present in the fluids of sick patients. This was the cell culture experiment, which began with the assumption that the unseen “viruses” were already present within a sick patient's fluids. When these fluids were added to a Petri dish containing kidney cells from African green monkeys, along with various chemicals and foreign additives, Enders observed what he referred to as the cytopathogenic effect (CPE). This effect was then attributed to “viruses” and used as evidence that these invisible entities are present within the sample, thus completing the illogical circular loop where the effect was taken as proof of the cause. This experimental method was fundamentally flawed, as it was based on the fallacy of begging the question. This basic illogical premise is ingrained in all virology research that has proceeded afterwards.

[snip]

In these cases, people are assuming a connection between two events simply because they occurred one after the other or closely together in time. This same flawed reasoning is evident in the cell culture experiments performed by virologists. They assume that adding unpurified lung fluid or nasal mucus from a sick patient to a culture of monkey kidney cells, followed by the observation of CPE, implies that a “virus” was present in the sample and ultimately caused the CPE. This reasoning ties back to the fallacy of begging the question regarding the existence of the “virus” in the first place, as well as affirming the consequent by using the effect (CPE) as proof of the supposed cause (the “virus”). It's a tangled web of circular reasoning, with no direct proof of any entity described as a pathogenic “virus” before any experiments or observations take place.

This fallacy was utilized by John Franklin Enders in his original 1954 paper establishing the cell culture experiment when he assumed that the CPE that occurred in his “infected” cultures was evidence that he has “isolated” the cause of the effect in the measles “virus.”



Directly after this passage, Enders did concede to other possible causes of the observed CPE. However, he still maintained that the CPE caused by these other “viral” agents or unknown factors resembled the CPE that he was already attributing to a measles “virus.”


Enders would ultimately conclude that the findings in his paper of the cytopathogenic changes supported his presumption that they are caused by the measles “virus.”



Why Enders would initially believe that the cytopathogenic changes observed in tissue and cell cultures were caused by a “measles virus” is puzzling, especially given his own acknowledgments in a paper titled Cytopathology of Virus Infections: Particular Reference to Tissue Culture Studies, published the same year as his measles paper. In this work, Enders made some revealing concessions regarding the interpretation of CPE. He explained that CPE can be triggered by many harmful agents, and that, on its own, this observation could not be conclusively attributed to “viral” activity. Despite this, Enders asserted that an observer familiar with the specific CPE patterns attributed to a particular “virus” might tentatively conclude that a “virus” is responsible.



[snip]

Enders conceded that cytopathogenic changes observed in the lab are influenced by numerous factors—some known, while others remain undefined. He attempted to correlate certain susceptible cell lines with “viral replication,” but he noted that this correlation did not always hold true, and that the opposite was sometimes observed:



Enders tried to argue that certain “viruses” specifically target certain cell types, but he also admitted that there is no absolute relationship between cytotropism in vivo and in vitro:



[snip]

Moreover, Enders admitted that the conditions under which the assumed “virus” has been propagated prior to its study in tissue culture can influence the intensity and degree of CPE. He acknowledged that serial passaging might enhance moderate or weak cytopathogenicity, showing that the researcher's approach can directly influence the observation of CPE:



Finally, Enders recognized that environmental factors—both known and unknown—within the culture can also enhance or suppress cytopathogenic activity. He pointed to the composition of the medium, the temperature of incubation, and the period of cultivation of the cells before the addition of any “virus” as factors that influence CPE:


Thus, it is evident that John Franklin Enders was aware of various factors unrelated to the presence of any “virus” that could cause the cytopathogenic effect he attributed to the “virus.” Given that he had no direct evidence pertaining to the existence of, and actually working with, a pathogenic “virus” (begging the question) and that he used an observed effect to assert the existence of its cause (affirming the consequent), it becomes clear that Enders committed a false cause fallacy. There were multiple known factors capable of producing the same effect, making the explanation of a “virus” unnecessary and entirely illogical.

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Full article:
Wow... It seems you think that if you dispute a method used to isolate the measles viruses over 80 years ago it will just negate the next 80 years of science that includes genetic sequencing.

You don't understand- there has never been any isolation of any biological virus, at least in the traditional definition of isolation in science, which is separating something from everything else. Since no alleged biological virus has never been truly isolated, it means that any "genetic sequencing" of the soups they sequence doesn't in any way prove that such sequences are coming from an actual biological virus.

John Franklin Enders won the Nobel Prize in 1954 for showing they they were capable of growing the polio virus in a culture in 1949.

No, but I know that's what is taught. In truth, this is what Enders accomplished:
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For over 60 years, virologists struggled to convincingly demonstrate that they were working with actual pathogenic “viruses” in their experiments. In fact, there wasn't even consensus on what a “virus” was until 1957. However, in 1954, virologist John Franklin Enders, while supposedly working with the measles “virus,” introduced an illogical experimental setup that allowed researchers to claim that they were working with the entities that they believed were present in the fluids of sick patients. This was the cell culture experiment, which began with the assumption that the unseen “viruses” were already present within a sick patient's fluids. When these fluids were added to a Petri dish containing kidney cells from African green monkeys, along with various chemicals and foreign additives, Enders observed what he referred to as the cytopathogenic effect (CPE). This effect was then attributed to “viruses” and used as evidence that these invisible entities are present within the sample, thus completing the illogical circular loop where the effect was taken as proof of the cause. This experimental method was fundamentally flawed, as it was based on the fallacy of begging the question. This basic illogical premise is ingrained in all virology research that has proceeded afterwards.
**

Source:

For those who don't know what "begging the question" means:
**
A logical fallacy in which a premise of an argument contains a direct or indirect assumption that the conclusion is true; offering a circular argument; circular reasoning.
**

Source:
 
You don't understand- there has never been any isolation of any biological virus, at least in the traditional definition of isolation in science, which is separating something from everything else. Since no alleged biological virus has never been truly isolated, it means that any "genetic sequencing" of the soups they sequence doesn't in any way prove that such sequences are coming from an actual biological virus.
And here you go again. Making the same claims without pointing out any errors in the 20 papers I linked to. If only science lived in the 1800s like you wanted it to.

There are 3 ways to isolate viruses. Those ways have been done repeatedly. You have failed to address those 3 methods.
No, but I know that's what is taught. In truth, this is what Enders accomplished:
**
For over 60 years, virologists struggled to convincingly demonstrate that they were working with actual pathogenic “viruses” in their experiments. In fact, there wasn't even consensus on what a “virus” was until 1957. However, in 1954, virologist John Franklin Enders, while supposedly working with the measles “virus,” introduced an illogical experimental setup that allowed researchers to claim that they were working with the entities that they believed were present in the fluids of sick patients. This was the cell culture experiment, which began with the assumption that the unseen “viruses” were already present within a sick patient's fluids. When these fluids were added to a Petri dish containing kidney cells from African green monkeys, along with various chemicals and foreign additives, Enders observed what he referred to as the cytopathogenic effect (CPE). This effect was then attributed to “viruses” and used as evidence that these invisible entities are present within the sample, thus completing the illogical circular loop where the effect was taken as proof of the cause. This experimental method was fundamentally flawed, as it was based on the fallacy of begging the question. This basic illogical premise is ingrained in all virology research that has proceeded afterwards.
**

Source:

For those who don't know what "begging the question" means:
**
A logical fallacy in which a premise of an argument contains a direct or indirect assumption that the conclusion is true; offering a circular argument; circular reasoning.
**

Source:
Reposting the same lack of science over and over only proves you have no real argument.

It is you that is making a circular argument. You argue that there is only one way to isolate a virus and then you argue that since that way has never been met to your satisfaction that viruses have never been isolated. You have not addressed any of the scientific papers that show viruses being isolated. You are stuck in your circular loop of a logical fallacy.

We have been over this before in that humans like viruses are not bacteria. If you want to argue that viruses must be isolated in the same way as bacteria then humans should have the same requirement for isolation as bacteria. Otherwise you are simply setting up your argument so that it reaches your desired conclusion. A circular argument and a great example of "begging the question" since you set up the test in order to fail.
 
Scott was here 6 months ago promoting the same nonsense. We'll probably see him back here again in another 6 months to a year doing this all over again.
But why? For what purpose?
At this point, it would be a fair assumption to conclude that he is being paid to disseminate disinformation.

I could say the same thing of you with just as little evidence. Insulting others is -so- easy. Providing evidence for one's own positions is another matter entirely.
 
Mr. Stone has analyzed way more than one study. But that's not the only point. There's a passage from a book that has nothing to do with biological viruses that I think is quite apt here. Quoting from it:
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These are two classic examples of what’s called the “confirmation bias” — or cherry picking evidence. When you’re already convinced that something is true or untrue — you’re always on the lookout for additional proof (and studies) which confirms how right and smart you are.

In order to avoid this mistake and spot real science from pseudoscience, famous science philosopher Karl Popper proposed that real science should be based on the principle of “falsifiability”38 — always looking for evidence which might show that your theory is wrong.39

Let me give you an example. Let’s say you take the hypothesis “All swans are white.” To prove this statement, most people would be tempted to start counting white swans. But as Magda Havas, PhD explains, “no number of white swans can prove the theory that all swans are white. The sighting of just one black swan disproves it.”

A much better way to go would be to use falsification, and try to find a black swan. If you look real hard and aren’t able to find a single black swan, you can feel reasonably confident that your theory (all swans are white) is right — even if it hasn’t been definitely proven just yet.


**
Source:
Pineault, Nicolas. The Non-Tinfoil Guide to EMFs: How to Fix Our Stupid Use of Technology (pp. 24-25). (Function). Kindle Edition.

Now, let’s apply this idea to whether biological viruses exist. We don’t verify that they exist by counting studies that suggest that they do. This is the same as counting white swans, and is an example of cherry picking. Instead, we do it by reading articles pointing to flaws in the evidence that they exist — because every single article which provides logical arguments showing that the evidence that they exist is flawed shatters the theory pushed by authorities that they definitely exist.
Since REAL SCIENCE is based on the principle of falsifiability then it should be obvious to you that Mike Stone has done nothing that could be classified as REAL SCIENCE.
On the contrary, I believe that Mr. Stone has done an excellent job of pointing out the flaws in virology.
Pointing out flaws is not falsification.

That depends on how bad the flaws are. As Nicolas Pineault pointed out, if your argument is that there are no black swans, then a single black swan would disprove your theory, regardless of how many white swans exist. Along the same lines, a single paper pointing out the flaws in virology is more important than a hundred that don't.
 
Real science would require that Mike Stone provide an answer of what is in the electron microscope pictures
Not if his goal is to point out the flaws in the reasoning of virologists who believe what they've seen are biological viruses. In case you're wondering, that was in fact his goal.
Thanks for admitting that Mike Stone is not presenting any science.

You apparently don't understand that pointing out flaws in theories is a fundamental aspect of real science.
 
what causes the diseases associated with viruses
He has certainly given alternative explanations for what is observered in laboratories and claimed to be the work of biological viruses. A good article of his where he does this:
The funny thing is all of his alternative explanations have been falsified so it proves him wrong.

Absolute balderdash, but you're welcome to try to prove that his alternative explanations have been falsified if you like.
 
Not exactly, it's akin to asking an ex-scientologist how scientology isn't all it's cracked up to be.

I can certainly agree that that could apply to anyone who no longer believes in virology. I think his very first line is quite good:
"If you're ever anywhere where you can't question what's put before you..."

My point exactly.
The reason I mention this is that you are arguing that an element of current science (biological viruses) simply doesn't exist.

I think it's safe to say that the doctors and other researchers who no longer believe in virology would argue that viroligy is as scientific as scientology. Quoting from the statement that I quoted and linked to in the opening post of this thread:
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After a century of experimentation and studies, as well as untold billions of dollars spent toward this “war against viruses”, we must ask whether it’s time to reconsider this theory. For several decades, many doctors and scientists have been putting forth the case that this commonly-accepted understanding of viruses is based on fundamental misconceptions. Fundamentally, rather than seeing “viruses” as independent, exogenous, pathogenic entities, these doctors and scientists have suggested they are simply the ordinary and inevitable breakdown particles of stressed and/or dead and dying tissues. They are therefore not pathogens, they are not harmful to other living beings, and no scientific or rational reasons exist to take measures to protect oneself or others against them. The misconceptions about “viruses” appears to largely derive from the nature of the experiments that are used as evidence to argue that such particles exist and act in the above pathological manner. In essence, the publications in virology are largely of a descriptive nature, rather than controlled and falsifiable hypothesis-driven experiments that are the heart of the scientific method.

Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purified from any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.

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Full statement:
 
I can certainly agree that that could apply to anyone who no longer believes in virology. I think his very first line is quite good:
"If you're ever anywhere where you can't question what's put before you..."

My point exactly.
Just saying "nuh uh" isn't questioning anything.

Agreed. I suspect you know I've never said "nuh uh".

If you want to prove that the disease caused by viruses are caused by some other thing you need to propose a hypothesis

First of all, I'm sure you're aware that there are -many- diseases that are alleged to be caused by various biological viruses. Secondly, even the medical doctors and other researchers that I reference in the opening post have never said that their goal is to prove anything. Rather, their goal is to ask those who believe in virology to provide solid evidence that biological viruses actually exist. As for other theories as to what causes various diseases attributed to biological viruses, there are certainly plenty of those. As an exampel, here are some alternative theories as to the causes of polio:

 
I could say the same thing of you with just as little evidence. Insulting others is -so- easy. Providing evidence for one's own positions is another matter entirely.
I provided 20 scientific papers. You have not addressed one of them. Being intellectually dishonest seems to be very easy for you.

You have provided no evidence for your position. You just keep repeating the same sources over and over and never addressing the criticisms of those sources.
 
Absolute balderdash, but you're welcome to try to prove that his alternative explanations have been falsified if you like.
Oh.. look, you provided no evidence to support your claims. All you did is denial.

Whose alternate explanations are you talking about? Explanations that are not able to be falsified would not be science. Your sources are not doing any science. They are simply denying without doing their own work to falsify what they are denying.
 
I think it's safe to say that the doctors and other researchers who no longer believe in virology would argue that viroligy is as scientific as scientology. Quoting from the statement that I quoted and linked to in the opening post of this thread:
**
After a century of experimentation and studies, as well as untold billions of dollars spent toward this “war against viruses”, we must ask whether it’s time to reconsider this theory. For several decades, many doctors and scientists have been putting forth the case that this commonly-accepted understanding of viruses is based on fundamental misconceptions. Fundamentally, rather than seeing “viruses” as independent, exogenous, pathogenic entities, these doctors and scientists have suggested they are simply the ordinary and inevitable breakdown particles of stressed and/or dead and dying tissues. They are therefore not pathogens, they are not harmful to other living beings, and no scientific or rational reasons exist to take measures to protect oneself or others against them. The misconceptions about “viruses” appears to largely derive from the nature of the experiments that are used as evidence to argue that such particles exist and act in the above pathological manner. In essence, the publications in virology are largely of a descriptive nature, rather than controlled and falsifiable hypothesis-driven experiments that are the heart of the scientific method.

Perhaps the primary evidence that the pathogenic viral theory is problematic is that no published scientific paper has ever shown that particles fulfilling the definition of viruses have been directly isolated and purified from any tissues or bodily fluids of any sick human or animal. Using the commonly accepted definition of “isolation”, which is the separation of one thing from all other things, there is general agreement that this has never been done in the history of virology. Particles that have been successfully isolated through purification have not been shown to be replication-competent, infectious and disease-causing, hence they cannot be said to be viruses. Additionally, the proffered “evidence” of viruses through “genomes" and animal experiments derives from methodologies with insufficient controls.

**

Full statement:
I think it's safe to say you are not aware of what science is. Denial is not science. Cherry picking an alleged error is not science. Science requires doing the actual work.

All you are doing is repeating the same circular arguments over and over and denying that they are circular.
Dr Bailey's argument is that because viruses don't act exactly like bacteria then they don't exist. It is nothing more than "begging the question."
Provide your evidence that viruses are bacteria.

DrBailey makes claims that are not supported by evidence. Would you care to point out what controls were insufficient in the 20 science articles I posted links to? Dr Bailey has not pointed out what is insufficient. Dr Bailey's claims without evidence can be dismissed as insufficient.
 
I asked him long ago to cite studies that have proven the thousands of studies on viruses wrong, he has not cited a single study, just that stupid book again...
 
Agreed. I suspect you know I've never said "nuh uh".



First of all, I'm sure you're aware that there are -many- diseases that are alleged to be caused by various biological viruses. Secondly, even the medical doctors and other researchers that I reference in the opening post have never said that their goal is to prove anything. Rather, their goal is to ask those who believe in virology to provide solid evidence that biological viruses actually exist. As for other theories as to what causes various diseases attributed to biological viruses, there are certainly plenty of those. As an exampel, here are some alternative theories as to the causes of polio:

Your alternate theories are complete garbage since they don't even begin to address all the evidence.
If DDT causes polio then why did Polio exist prior to DDT being used? This would be impossible if DDT causes polio.
The highest death rates for Polio occurred in 1916. DDT wasn't used until after WW2.
Then if DDT causes polio why did the number of Polio cases drop drastically after the Polio vaccine was introduced.
By 1963, Polio had dropped to .21 per 100,000 from the 36.45 in 1952. DDT use continued into the 1970s.

The viral explanation of Polio explains the reasons for Polio to exist prior to 1940 and explains the reason for the drop off in cases after the Polio vaccine was introduced in the early 60s.

The problem once again is that you are not doing science. The way to falsify the DDT theory is to show that Polio existed when DDT wasn't in use. Polio did exist when DDT wasn't in use so DDT as the reason for polio has been proven to be false if we use actual science.
 
I think it's safe to say that the doctors and other researchers who no longer believe in virology would argue that viroligy is as scientific as scientology. Quoting from the statement that I quoted and linked to in the opening post of this thread:
That is not a scientific argument. Science would require that they falsify the virology theory. The fact that they have not falsified it would show that they are not doing science. They are simply spouting garbage and you are eating their garbage.
 
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