Into the Night
Verified User
Won't work, Edwina. It is YOU that doesn't know what 'fact' means.
Civil War
- Thread starter goat
- Start date
Into the Night
Verified User
Redefinition fallacy.
A 'fact' is an assumed predicate. That's all. IBDaMann has it right.
It is not a Universal Truth. It is not a proof.
You can't laugh your way out of your illiteracy, Edwina.
Into the Night
Verified User
The federal government does not subsidize overseas production, Edwina.
WTF is a 'labor racketeer'???
Triggered the Party flunky again; now he posts more idiot parsings.
lol sure they do. All over the world.
Your heroes.
lol sure they do. All over the world.
Your heroes.
Into the Night
Verified User
The federal government does not subsidize overseas production, Edwina. You are hallucinating.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Two examples of what I said and why the above is wrong. (No, I don't have links due to the age of these)
The first comes from a 60 Minutes segment from the late 80's where they showed a UAW worker being laid off from some factory in Detroit. The company was closing the plant because of its age and high operating costs. The worker was some schmuck in his late 20's who had nothing beyond a high school diploma. His job on the assembly line (which they showed) was putting the doors on vehicles. He'd use a mechanical arm to assist position it, hook up the electrics and then use an impact driver to put the nuts and bolts on. He'd operate the door a couple of times to make sure it fit correctly. For this job he was making $70 plus benefits. The guy had a house, RV, truck, car, boat, vacation house on a lake nearby, etc. He was wining that he'd have to sell most of that stuff because he couldn't get another job that paid anywhere close to what he was making. This was the late 80's where reasonably skilled labor--journeyman level jobs where you had years of training or some level of college involved--usually got $15 to $25 an hour plus some benefits. This virtually unskilled UAW union worker was making $70 + benefits. Of course he couldn't get another job!
Then they showed the maquiladora factory where the car manufacturer had moved that plant to Mexico. There was old Juan doing the exact same job and thrilled as fuck that he was getting the equivalent of a US dollar an hour to do it. The plant didn't face harsh, exacting, and expensive, environmental and safety regulations like they did in Detroit. Of course, the company moved! It made sense to move. The union fucked their workers by pricing their labor far above market value. The government taxed, and regulated the company to the point they couldn't afford it any longer. So, they left.
Then there was this steel factory in Chicago I read about that closed in the 90's. Obama (not that he did anything other than be part of it) was part of a coalition of local social work and activist groups that were trying to help the workers laid off from the factory to get retrained or new jobs that paid what they were previously making.
In one case, they were interviewing a late-middle-aged worker with a high school education that realistically had maybe an 8th grade level of knowledge about what he did. He told them that for $35 an hour (plus benefits) he straightened steel rod stock. His job was to push the first button to load the machine with a rod. Then push the second to straighten it. He then pushed the third button to send the rod to somewhere else. That was his whole job.
The article stated that the social / activist people were dumbfounded as to what they could get these workers who lacked any salable skills. They barely knew any math and weren't particularly proficient at reading and writing. At their typical ages (40+) they were literally unemployable at any sort of skilled job that paid what they were previously making.
Again, the plant closed because the union overpriced the labor, and the government came in with burdensome and costly regulations that made it cheaper overall to move the plant overseas. The antiquated equipment could be abandoned and new computer-controlled machines could be purchased overseas so the cost of moving was relatively low.
This was really common in the 80's to 2000's as companies shifted from industrial age manual labor to electronics age computer-controlled machinery. They only still required skilled labor where jobs were too complex for a computer to do. That eliminated a lot of environmental and safety costs and cut the cost of labor down significantly. The remaining skilled workers were worth paying the sort of wages those unskilled examples above were getting.
America no longer needs ditch diggers.
This
is now this:
Unskilled labor is on the decline. Sure, the Democrats still want to import it in the form of illegals because they love them some good slaves...
Two examples of what I said and why the above is wrong. (No, I don't have links due to the age of these)
The first comes from a 60 Minutes segment from the late 80's where they showed a UAW worker being laid off from some factory in Detroit. The company was closing the plant because of its age and high operating costs. The worker was some schmuck in his late 20's who had nothing beyond a high school diploma. His job on the assembly line (which they showed) was putting the doors on vehicles. He'd use a mechanical arm to assist position it, hook up the electrics and then use an impact driver to put the nuts and bolts on. He'd operate the door a couple of times to make sure it fit correctly. For this job he was making $70 plus benefits. The guy had a house, RV, truck, car, boat, vacation house on a lake nearby, etc. He was wining that he'd have to sell most of that stuff because he couldn't get another job that paid anywhere close to what he was making. This was the late 80's where reasonably skilled labor--journeyman level jobs where you had years of training or some level of college involved--usually got $15 to $25 an hour plus some benefits. This virtually unskilled UAW union worker was making $70 + benefits. Of course he couldn't get another job!
Then they showed the maquiladora factory where the car manufacturer had moved that plant to Mexico. There was old Juan doing the exact same job and thrilled as fuck that he was getting the equivalent of a US dollar an hour to do it. The plant didn't face harsh, exacting, and expensive, environmental and safety regulations like they did in Detroit. Of course, the company moved! It made sense to move. The union fucked their workers by pricing their labor far above market value. The government taxed, and regulated the company to the point they couldn't afford it any longer. So, they left.
Then there was this steel factory in Chicago I read about that closed in the 90's. Obama (not that he did anything other than be part of it) was part of a coalition of local social work and activist groups that were trying to help the workers laid off from the factory to get retrained or new jobs that paid what they were previously making.
In one case, they were interviewing a late-middle-aged worker with a high school education that realistically had maybe an 8th grade level of knowledge about what he did. He told them that for $35 an hour (plus benefits) he straightened steel rod stock. His job was to push the first button to load the machine with a rod. Then push the second to straighten it. He then pushed the third button to send the rod to somewhere else. That was his whole job.
The article stated that the social / activist people were dumbfounded as to what they could get these workers who lacked any salable skills. They barely knew any math and weren't particularly proficient at reading and writing. At their typical ages (40+) they were literally unemployable at any sort of skilled job that paid what they were previously making.
Again, the plant closed because the union overpriced the labor, and the government came in with burdensome and costly regulations that made it cheaper overall to move the plant overseas. The antiquated equipment could be abandoned and new computer-controlled machines could be purchased overseas so the cost of moving was relatively low.
This was really common in the 80's to 2000's as companies shifted from industrial age manual labor to electronics age computer-controlled machinery. They only still required skilled labor where jobs were too complex for a computer to do. That eliminated a lot of environmental and safety costs and cut the cost of labor down significantly. The remaining skilled workers were worth paying the sort of wages those unskilled examples above were getting.
America no longer needs ditch diggers.
This
is now this:
Unskilled labor is on the decline. Sure, the Democrats still want to import it in the form of illegals because they love them some good slaves...
Lots of spin and anecdotal rubbish. The companies' execs wanted to play with manipulating stock prices instead of actually managing the plants and business, and when they fucked up they run around sniveling about unions' and 'da govt.', and they pay shills to run around repeating it over and over. The execs are only interested in next quarter's stock prices, it's how they get paid, and fuck the long term consequences of their bad management decisions. Manufacturing doesn't work like banking does, period. Industrial capital isn't financial capital; they work entirely different ways. One is parasitical, the other is based on genuine productivity. Learn the difference.
There has never been a labor shortage of any kind in the U.S., skilled or unskilled. Some clown who wants to get rich in one month instead of two if he only had more cheap labor is not a labor shortage, it's just some asshole whining is all.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Yes, that's a lot of spin and anecdotal rubbish. For example, as early as the 70's GM was looking to automate their factories to reduce exorbitant labor costs. That resulted in poor build quality and massive problems with the machinery. The technology wasn't up to the task yet.
What Happened When Automation Came To General Motors? - Slashdot
General Motors was once the world's most profitable company -- for two decades -- and by 1970 its revenue was $22.8 billion (or $152 billion in today's dollars). But five weeks ago GM announced that it was finally ending small-car production and closing its Lordstown Assembly plant in...
tech.slashdot.org
This was an attempt to get around the UAW and labor costs as well as looming federal safety and environmental regulations in part.
Toyota and Nissan / Datsun at the time only incrementally introduced automation and came out far ahead of GM in terms of profitability.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
There's one right now simply because men, in particular younger men, don't want to actually work.
Why Won't Kids Work Today? Mike Rowe Says ...
Nearly twenty years after its debut, DIRTY JOBS and the principles its host Mike Rowe highlighted still apply today. The most important?...
www.movieguide.org
Mike Rowe warns labor shortages in skilled trades is a ‘long, slow burn’
While there are "encouraging" signs in the skilled labor industry, Mike Rowe urges "we have to keep pushing" against blue-collar stigmas, stereotypes and misperceptions.
www.foxbusiness.com
We have a public school system, and education system that focuses almost exclusively on sending students to college for degrees. Trades get short shrift. Illegals can't take these jobs lacking both the language and educational skills necessary to do them. The Gen Z and Millennials don't want to do them. They've been propagandized and even brainwashed into believing they can become millionaires doing something like streaming bullshit on a web channel on the internet.
IBDaMann
Well-known member
Nope. The word "fact" means what it means, regardless of your never having learned it.
They have corporate execs and stock market hustlers as role models.
There's one right now simply because men, in particular younger men, don't want to actually work.
Why Won't Kids Work Today? Mike Rowe Says ...
Nearly twenty years after its debut, DIRTY JOBS and the principles its host Mike Rowe highlighted still apply today. The most important?...
Mike Rowe warns labor shortages in skilled trades is a ‘long, slow burn’
While there are "encouraging" signs in the skilled labor industry, Mike Rowe urges "we have to keep pushing" against blue-collar stigmas, stereotypes and misperceptions.
We have a public school system, and education system that focuses almost exclusively on sending students to college for degrees. Trades get short shrift. Illegals can't take these jobs lacking both the language and educational skills necessary to do them. The Gen Z and Millennials don't want to do them. They've been propagandized and even brainwashed into believing they can become millionaires doing something like streaming bullshit on a web channel on the internet.
And corporations expect govt to train their employees for free.
Big employers never relied on govt. to educate and train their employees; what changed? Oh yeah, that sense of entitlement corporations have developed that makes them resemble the spoiled Burb Brats they now claim they deplore.
Example of one corporation owner who paid his own way:
Ford Sociological Department & English School - The Henry Ford
In order to manage a large and diverse workforce, Ford Motor Company created the Sociological Department and English school. Learn more here.
www.thehenryford.org
Ford’s English program was so successful that other companies and social organizations patterned their programs after it. A Ford English School diploma was considered so valuable that an immigrant seeking naturalization could use it to meet many of the requirements needed before taking the final citizenship exam.
The culmination of the Ford English School program was the graduation ceremony where students were transformed into Americans. During the ceremony speakers gave rousing patriotic speeches and factory bands played marches and patriotic songs. The highlight of the event would be the transformation of immigrants into Americans. Students dressed in costumes reminiscent of their native homes stepped into a massive stage-prop cauldron that had a banner across the front identifying it as the AMERICAN MELTING POT. Seconds later, after a quick change out of sight of the audience, students emerged wearing “American” suits and hats, waving American flags, having undergone a spiritual smelting process where the impurities of foreignness were burnt off as slag to be tossed away leaving a new 100% American.
Corporations can train their own labor forces; it's not the taxpayers' job to subsidize them, especially when they have zero respect for labor, skilled or unskilled, in the first place. Even the robber barons eventually figured that out, at least the successful ones did.
Funny how all that social darwinism and laissez faire libertarian BS disappears when corporate welfare comes up. Suddenly the rich welfare bums have halos around their heads and feed us all. lol
Yes, you're uneducated and ignorant. You can't hide it with repetitious ideological tripe.
Tobytone
Verified User
He's got to be kidding me? If you think for 1 second that any bill that involved a tax cut that would benefit so many people would go on opposed by the Democrats I've got an oceanfront property in Arizona for you. Democrats have proven repeatedly that they will lie and say anything to slow down hold up or stop any bills that would score positive political points for the Republicans, period.
Correct. Those are the sticking points that should have been tackled separately.
The Democratic Party consistently opposes policies that enjoy overwhelming public support, often 80/20 issues, fully aware that their constituents reject their radical stances. Their strategy is one word: resist. Governance, compromise, or constructive policy-making have completely disappeared replaced by relentless opposition. Democrats aren't preoccupied with potential losses in 2028. They bank on the short attention span of the American electorate, believing that only the final three or four weeks before an election matter. In that window, rhetoric trumps action. They'll say anything to win votes, pivot on promises, and disavow past failures without hesitation or shame. Their obsessive yet futile efforts to dismantle Trump have driven them into a state of political irrationality, alienating voters and eroding their credibility.
The bill is on schedule, progressing exactly as expected. A standalone bill for the border wall would have been chaotic. A separate bill for the Golden Dome would have been equally contentious. Individual bills for no tax on overtime or tips would have faced similar resistance, each devolving into a political mess. There's no basis for assuming Democrats would join Republicans to pass these broadly popular measures. The evidence suggests the opposite: entrenched opposition is the norm. The current omnibus approach, is on track and chugs along with the typical gridlock, especially in an era defined by resisting Trump. A delay may occur, but that's standard for such legislation, that said, it will pass as planned.
He most definitely will. The Republicans are well aware of the stakes and under no circumstance will they fail. This is why the one big beautiful bill was clearly the way to go and will prove successful. More bills just means more opportunity for Democratic shenanigans, not to mention anything could happen like a death or a scandal or both that knocks out a couple Republicans and then all bets are off. When this bill passes Trump will no longer be tied down in typical inner party politics trying to get multiple bills through in time to have an impact on the economy prior to the midterms. After passage the Democrats will continue withq class warfare rhetoric and invent anecdotal stories of the impacts the bill is having on regular Americans. It will be one lie after another
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
No, they have teachers that tell them college is the only way to get a decent job, celebrities flooding social media telling them they can be millionaires while doing nothing more than making YouTube videos. They have a news media and lots of Leftists telling them that "blue collar" workers are morons and knuckle draggers and nothing more.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
No, they don't. Most larger companies have apprenticeship programs for the trades. For example,
Ridge Tool Company launches apprenticeship program with Lorain Community College
Help Wanted Ohio is working to get to the bottom of our employment issues. For months, there has been a rising demand to fill a growing number of manufacturing jobs in the Buckeye state.
www.news5cleveland.com
Companies are desperate for skilled trade workers and pay well to get them.
You are thinking in terms of the Industrial Age. It's the Electronics Age now and things are vastly different.
That's so Industrial Age. Things have changed with the end of that and the emergence of the Electronics Age.Example of one corporation owner who paid his own way:
Ford Sociological Department & English School - The Henry Ford
In order to manage a large and diverse workforce, Ford Motor Company created the Sociological Department and English school. Learn more here.
Ford’s English program was so successful that other companies and social organizations patterned their programs after it. A Ford English School diploma was considered so valuable that an immigrant seeking naturalization could use it to meet many of the requirements needed before taking the final citizenship exam.
The culmination of the Ford English School program was the graduation ceremony where students were transformed into Americans. During the ceremony speakers gave rousing patriotic speeches and factory bands played marches and patriotic songs. The highlight of the event would be the transformation of immigrants into Americans. Students dressed in costumes reminiscent of their native homes stepped into a massive stage-prop cauldron that had a banner across the front identifying it as the AMERICAN MELTING POT. Seconds later, after a quick change out of sight of the audience, students emerged wearing “American” suits and hats, waving American flags, having undergone a spiritual smelting process where the impurities of foreignness were burnt off as slag to be tossed away leaving a new 100% American.
Corporations can train their own labor forces; it's not the taxpayers' job to subsidize them, especially when they have zero respect for labor, skilled or unskilled, in the first place. Even the robber barons eventually figured that out, at least the successful ones did.
Funny how all that social darwinism and laissez faire libertarian BS disappears when corporate welfare comes up. Suddenly the rich welfare bums have halos around their heads and feed us all. lol
Tobytone
Verified User
Your comment reeks of the same tired anti-capitalist tropes that conspiracy theorists peddle ignoring the overwhelming evidence that free markets drive innovation efficiency and prosperity like no other system in history. Let’s break it down.
You claim execs are just stock-price manipulators who don’t care about long-term consequences. Sure some prioritize short-term gains human nature isn’t perfect. But the beauty of the free market is its self-correcting mechanism. Bad management gets punished by competition not coddled by government bailouts or union featherbedding. If a company’s leadership tanks the business chasing quarterly numbers they lose market share stock value plummets and they’re out of a job. Look at Sears or Blockbuster free markets don’t reward incompetence for long.
You sneer at “sniveling about unions and da government” but let’s be real overreaching unions and bloated regulations often choke businesses. The U.S. manufacturing sector has been hammered by labor costs inflated by union demands and government red tape that makes it cheaper to produce overseas. Data backs this up U.S. manufacturing jobs dropped from 19.5 million in 1979 to 12.9 million in 2023 largely because of global competition and regulatory burdens. Free markets incentivize efficiency unions and government often protect inefficiency.
Your distinction between “parasitical” financial capital and “productive” industrial capital is a false dichotomy. Both are essential. Financial markets allocate resources efficiently funding innovation and growth. Industrial capital doesn’t exist in a vacuum it needs investment which comes from those “parasitical” markets you decry. Apple Tesla and countless others wouldn’t exist without the free flow of capital. You think manufacturing thrives under central planning? Look at the Soviet Union’s collapse or Venezuela’s economic implosion state-controlled systems fail every time.
As for monopolies and corporate greed controlling governments the free market isn’t the culprit cronyism is. When government picks winners and losers through subsidies or regulations it distorts the market. The solution isn’t less freedom it’s more. Break up monopolies through competition not heavy-handed state intervention. Big Tech’s dominance for example is already being challenged by nimble startups and consumer choice not government edicts.
You call it “spin and anecdotal rubbish” but the data speaks for itself free market economies like the U.S. have consistently higher GDP per capita innovation rates and living standards than any socialist or heavily regulated system. The World Bank shows market-driven nations like Singapore and Switzerland far outpace others in economic freedom and prosperity. The free market isn’t perfect nothing is but it’s the only system that consistently rewards productivity punishes failure and lifts billions out of poverty. Your conspiracy-laced rant ignores that reality.
Into the Night
Verified User
Random words. No apparent coherency.
Into the Night
Verified User
Bullshit. Price controls ALWAYS cause shortages.
The skilled labor to make wagon wheels is not needed much anymore, Edwina. The skilled labor to make tires (and to install them) IS needed much more instead.