40 years ago today - Kent State Massacre

  • Thread starter Thread starter WinterBorn
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I don't think you can dismiss the views of some one who as actually there as "A theory".

Actually Dixie, you're right about one thing. It's amazing more people weren't killed and injured. About 60 shots were fired and only 4 were killed and 9 injured. Considering they were shooting into a crowd and two of the victims killed weren't even protestors but Students walking to class about 100 yards away.....I'd say they were lousy shots too.
Of course they were lousy shots. They were guardsmen. When I went to basic training the Drill Sgts said NG didn't stand for National Guard, it stood for "No Go" the words used when a soldier in basic failed a certain aspect of training. All guardsmen were considered No Go's.
 
Oh, I am not arguing the execution of the war, or the strategy we employed. It's obvious it was terrible and should have never been handled the way it was. But stopping the spread of communist expansion in the region was thought to be a noble and just cause, and a majority of Americans agreed we should do something. The problem was, what we did was not effective and we suffered enormous casualties as a result, and then Americans lost their stomach for the war. It no longer seemed worth it, but was that because it never was worth it? Or was it because we didn't implement a winning strategy and end it in short order? It seems we now have two prevailing mindsets, those who feel it never was worth it, and those who feel we should have done what needed to be done to win it. My viewpoint is, if it was worth it once before, why wouldn't it have been later? It defies logic to think the worthiness changed, and it makes sense that our perceptions changed. The lesson we should have learned, is not to get involved in wars we aren't prepared to win, regardless of the cost. Unfortunately, the lesson many believe we learned, was simply to not get involved because it's never worth the cost.
As pointed out earlier, Ho was no Marxist. He was a nationalist. He wanted foreigners out of Vietnam. He was our ally in WWII and the US military made him the provisional leader of Vietnam after the war. He asked us to assist him in establishing a Vietnamese government that would be free of foreign interference (Read French) but in the end we refused because he was going to nationalize much of his resources, most troubling to us, the rubber plantations. Ho would have NEVER joined with the Chinese or the Soviets if not forced into a corner. The problem with old US policy is we could never see the long term. 5 years was as far as our vision went.
 
I know lots of native Southerners who share my demeanor, especially the mountain folks. First and foremost, we hate Democrats for their hatred of blacks, their elitism, the civil war, their current policies and especially how they have the rest of the country portray us.
 
I know lots of native Southerners who share my demeanor, especially the mountain folks. First and foremost, we hate Democrats for their hatred of blacks, their elitism, the civil war, their current policies and especially how they have the rest of the country portray us.
The 'mountain folk' of which SM speaks:
cletus-simpsons.jpg
 
Where I agree with you about there being no conspiracy to kill students by right wing political leaders (agreed, that's non-sense though Crash is right, right wing propagandist did publish out right lies about Kent State in an attempt to manipulate the situation politically, that's a fact.).

I don't know what "lies" you are talking about, but the right wing doesn't own a publishing house. And they could "manipulate" all the propaganda they wanted, 4 civilians killed by the ONG is hard to spin politically.

As for thinking they were being fired upon. You can believe that if you want but no one who was around here at the time does. I've talked to guardsmen of that time, here in Ohio, and they were flat out pissed off at the long haired hippie communist un-American college kids who opposed the Vietnam War. What happened was a couple of clowns in the ONG got pissed, lost their composure, said to themselves "Fuck those little assholes" and fired on them. It was those two assholes who fired first that caused the chain reaction of other guardsmen to shoot thinking they were being fired upon. As soon as they realized that was not the case, as you correctly stated, they ceased fire. If you listen closely to the audio of the shooting, which was captured, you can literally hear two shots being fired first by the guardsmen, followed by a volley being fired from the rest.

So you somehow have the magical gift of being able to tell by audio, who fired the shots? And I suppose mental telepathy is how you know the guardsmen said "fuck those little assholes" before opening fire? Now let me ask you something... I assume you've been around guns being fired before... Can you tell the difference between someone standing beside you firing a gun, and someone firing a gun down range? I know I can tell a difference. Finally, I have to wonder about what these two phantom guardsmen were thinking... even though they were surrounded by their own fellow guardsmen, nobody would see them do this? Were they thinking, if we mow down a few students, no one will care?

I've heard interviews of one of those guardsmen who was the first to fire. He's a wacked out nut job and he didn't hear no guns shots. He's a fucking liar. He got pissed off and wanted to teach those kids a lesson and over the years he's made that clear. He should of had his ass court martialed. Had he been the only one to fire he would of cause he fired without orders. He got lucky in that. Had the other guardsmen refrained from firing when he did his ass would have been prosecuted.

What "lesson" did he teach? Please enlighten me on what "lesson" he thought he was going to teach by using his national guard status to kill innocent civilians on an American college campus? Everything you are saying, every bit of this "conspiracy theory" nonsense, makes not one lick of common sense. It's emotive, it gives you some sort of satisfaction or resolution to blame the guardsmen, and perhaps they deserve the blame, but not because you are a biased emotive nitwit who can't be the least bit objective about it.
 
You need to get your history a bit straighter, Ruby Ridge happened in August 1992, months before Clinton was elected. Weaver's family members were murdered by George H. W. Bush's DOJ. Makes Waco no less horrible, but just because you are a conservative doesn't mean it was ALL under Clinton. Hell, the Waco investigation and planning began in 1992 as well. The DOJ policy of extreme violence against "undesirables" has been continuous from one administration to another.

Soc, the purpose of me mentioning Ruby Ridge and Waco, was not so I could point my finger at Bill Clinton and whine, "The democrats do it toooo!" It was to illustrate how these tragic incidents happen sometimes, regardless of who is in power. The assertion was made, that Kent State was a case of "the right wing doing anything to get its way" and that simply was not the case. Sorry you became sidetracked from the point in your zealotry to castigate the right, perhaps you could attempt to be more bipartisan in the future?

As pointed out earlier, Ho was no Marxist. He was a nationalist. He wanted foreigners out of Vietnam. He was our ally in WWII and the US military made him the provisional leader of Vietnam after the war. He asked us to assist him in establishing a Vietnamese government that would be free of foreign interference (Read French) but in the end we refused because he was going to nationalize much of his resources, most troubling to us, the rubber plantations. Ho would have NEVER joined with the Chinese or the Soviets if not forced into a corner. The problem with old US policy is we could never see the long term. 5 years was as far as our vision went.

For someone who wanted 'foreigners' out of his country, he sure let a lot of Communist Chinese (Vietcong) come in! I'm thinking the 'foreigners' he didn't want in his country, were the ones talking about freedom and democracy. He didn't seem to mind 'foreigners' who supported his regime.

What's amazing here is, you post a short paragraph, which is supposed to completely explain the myriad of complexities surrounding the conflict in Southeast Asia, backed by nothing but your opinion and impersonations of Neville Chamberlain.
 
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