40 years ago today - Kent State Massacre

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Southern Man said:
I pick them up with every one of your silly straw men.
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If you pick up debate points you keep them hidden well. You haven't engaged in a debate with me in a very long time. You throw out a few vague comments or refuted facts and then retreat behind insults and bullshit. The fact that you continue to use the Logical Fallacies, while commiting them, is just another example of your hypocrisy.
 
Southern Man said:
Because you're a stalker, nothing more. Oh, and a douchebag.
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The fact that I call you on your bullshit is not stalking. I post in numerous threads, and you follow as often as not.

You are a pretender and a wannabe, without the spine to be a real man.
 
WinterBorn said:
Our soldiers died in Vietnam for no reason whatsoever. They were not fighting for freedom. They were sent to fight & die without being allowed to fight to win.

While you claim we fight for freedom, you ignore that we set up many of the despotic dictators that later became our enemies. We have meddled in the affairs of sovreign nations for decades. And you would be the first to scream bloody murder if any other nation tried to do the same to us.
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"They were sent to fight & die without being allowed to fight to win."

And that's a fact.
You don't order your troops to take a hill, retreat from it, and then have to go back and re-take it.

Let the Military do what it does best. KIck ass and take names.
Politicians need to stay out of it.
 
WinterBorn said:
On May 4th 1970, 4 students were killed and 9 others wounded, by the Ohio National Guard, on the Kent State campus.


"Tin soldiers and Nixon coming, 4 dead in Ohio"
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the fools paniced and fired over the heads of the protesters without thinking that the bullets would have to land somewhere

the people killed and injured were not part of the protest

of course the governor of ohio did not help...
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You're to young and dumb and have to much fun trolling to understand what you're saying. Brother killing brother? Man that's the ultimate in "That's fucked up dude!".

I lost a friend in Vietnam. I have a niece in Iraq in harms way. She's lost friends there. What did they die for? Can you answer me that without resorting to some stupid cliche?

Tin Soldiers and Nixon calling, four dead in Ohio.
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My dad was a Marine, but since he failed to ever mention that he was a Marine, and served from '65-'69 until a teacher outed him to me as a possible vet when I was 12, and he is reluctant to speak about it much, I guess I've never really had an impression made upon me.

That said, I'm totally not serious, and since people are here being retarded, and being completely serious about their stupidity, this thread needs my trolling. I'm a Guardsman who stumbled accross a thread about Kent State, so naturally I'm going it troll the damn thing...

The answer to your questions is they died fighting for nothing, or at least very little. I'm weird, though, and I suppose most servicemembers would argue that they died fighting for freedom. I will admit that they died fighting against horribly brutal enemies who subscribe to radical ideas such as marxism and islamism, but since I don't believe in fighting wars to help people other than my own countrymen, the crusades in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq just don't appeal to me.
 
Southern Man said:
I wasn't born in North Carolina, but I got here as soon as I could.
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So you are a yankee that moved south and won't leave. We southerners call that a damn yankee.

No SM, you are not a southerner. Your personality and demeanor are far from southern. Being a southerner is not about your zip code.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I lost a friend in Vietnam. I have a niece in Iraq in harms way. She's lost friends there. What did they die for? Can you answer me that without resorting to some stupid cliche?
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Where a service member dies or what conflict they died in has very little to do with what they died for. We sign up for varying reasons and in the end, those are the reasons we die for. The actions taken by our leadership may lead us to our ends, but it was ultimately our choice to take that risk, whatever our individual goal in it may be.
 
Weighted Companion Cube said:
Where a service member dies or what conflict they died in has very little to do with what they died for. We sign up for varying reasons and in the end, those are the reasons we die for. The actions taken by our leadership may lead us to our ends, but it was ultimately our choice to take that risk, whatever our individual goal in it may be.
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Good answer, but allow me to expound further...

War: What is it Good For? ...Before you answer that, imagine Europe under decades of Fascist and Nazi rule, the tens of millions of people who would have certainly met a hideous fate, had the Allies not won the war. Imagine the country we may very well live in today, had America never engaged in a Civil War. Or the "United States" being an obscure footnote in British history, had we not fought and won the War of 1812.

So while we can all acknowledge war is bad, and not something we should engage in lightly, it is sometimes necessary and crucial to civilization. The hopeless sentiment regarding Vietnam, is a direct result of us BAILING and not winning the war! If anything, it should have been a lesson to us, not to enter wars we aren't willing to win decisively. But it seems it didn't teach us this at all, because we now have Iraq. The same thing can happen there, we can BAIL and not win, and the sacrifices made will be for absolutely nothing.

Some people obviously WANT that to be the case, so they can politicize the war, and gain power in government as a result. To me, that is appalling and despicable, but it is the mindset of many Americans. What I see in Iraq, is millions of people proudly holding up a purple thumb! Signifying the first time in their lives they have controlled their own fate and had a political voice. Freedom that some of us simply take for granted! WE made that possible for them! OUR boys did that! Millions of people enjoy the same political freedom we enjoy in our own country, as a direct result of the sacrifices we made. It's selfless and heroic, and it fulfills our moral obligations as a civilized and decent people, to have done what we did. I think of how many lives we turned our backs on in Vietnam, how many millions of people died under an oppressive communist regime, because we became too selfish to complete the task we embarked on... then I hear idiots yammer on about Vietnam like it was supposed to have taught us not to get involved!
 
We join for a variety of reasons. But we fight for the guys fighting with us. Its far less philisophical than you would think.
 
Dixie said:
Good answer, but allow me to expound further...

War: What is it Good For? ...Before you answer that, imagine Europe under decades of Fascist and Nazi rule, the tens of millions of people who would have certainly met a hideous fate, had the Allies not won the war. Imagine the country we may very well live in today, had America never engaged in a Civil War. Or the "United States" being an obscure footnote in British history, had we not fought and won the War of 1812.

So while we can all acknowledge war is bad, and not something we should engage in lightly, it is sometimes necessary and crucial to civilization. The hopeless sentiment regarding Vietnam, is a direct result of us BAILING and not winning the war! If anything, it should have been a lesson to us, not to enter wars we aren't willing to win decisively. But it seems it didn't teach us this at all, because we now have Iraq. The same thing can happen there, we can BAIL and not win, and the sacrifices made will be for absolutely nothing.

Some people obviously WANT that to be the case, so they can politicize the war, and gain power in government as a result. To me, that is appalling and despicable, but it is the mindset of many Americans. What I see in Iraq, is millions of people proudly holding up a purple thumb! Signifying the first time in their lives they have controlled their own fate and had a political voice. Freedom that some of us simply take for granted! WE made that possible for them! OUR boys did that! Millions of people enjoy the same political freedom we enjoy in our own country, as a direct result of the sacrifices we made. It's selfless and heroic, and it fulfills our moral obligations as a civilized and decent people, to have done what we did. I think of how many lives we turned our backs on in Vietnam, how many millions of people died under an oppressive communist regime, because we became too selfish to complete the task we embarked on... then I hear idiots yammer on about Vietnam like it was supposed to have taught us not to get involved!
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We got involved in Vietnam for reasons that may or may not have been good ones. The attempt to stop the expansion of communism sounded great.

But we didn't send our boys to fight and win a war. We sent them to fight one on a small scale and not to expand it. The people in charge didn't give a rat's ass about casualties. They knew that the "important kids" we in college or had gotten deferments ect.

It was good for the economy and good for business.
 
WinterBorn said:
We got involved in Vietnam for reasons that may or may not have been good ones. The attempt to stop the expansion of communism sounded great.

But we didn't send our boys to fight and win a war. We sent them to fight one on a small scale and not to expand it. The people in charge didn't give a rat's ass about casualties. They knew that the "important kids" we in college or had gotten deferments ect.

It was good for the economy and good for business.
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old ho was a nationalist commie and should have been left alone

he did not favor either the soviets or china...in fact the hated them

he wanted southeast asia for southeast asians and to hell with the rest of the world - the the u s of a military needed the training

a military that does not fight now and then gets stale

so finish up in iraq and take over the afghanistan poppy trade

oops, we cannot it would mess up the local economy - the way the soviets did

afghanistan used to export food and be self sufficient
 
WinterBorn said:
We got involved in Vietnam for reasons that may or may not have been good ones. The attempt to stop the expansion of communism sounded great.

But we didn't send our boys to fight and win a war. We sent them to fight one on a small scale and not to expand it. The people in charge didn't give a rat's ass about casualties. They knew that the "important kids" we in college or had gotten deferments ect.

It was good for the economy and good for business.
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Oh, I am not arguing the execution of the war, or the strategy we employed. It's obvious it was terrible and should have never been handled the way it was. But stopping the spread of communist expansion in the region was thought to be a noble and just cause, and a majority of Americans agreed we should do something. The problem was, what we did was not effective and we suffered enormous casualties as a result, and then Americans lost their stomach for the war. It no longer seemed worth it, but was that because it never was worth it? Or was it because we didn't implement a winning strategy and end it in short order? It seems we now have two prevailing mindsets, those who feel it never was worth it, and those who feel we should have done what needed to be done to win it. My viewpoint is, if it was worth it once before, why wouldn't it have been later? It defies logic to think the worthiness changed, and it makes sense that our perceptions changed. The lesson we should have learned, is not to get involved in wars we aren't prepared to win, regardless of the cost. Unfortunately, the lesson many believe we learned, was simply to not get involved because it's never worth the cost.
 
Dixie said:
In 40 years, I have not heard a single American EVER express the sentiment that it was "okay" ..."cool" ...or in any way "acceptable" for the military to have killed 4 people at Kent. It certainly CAN happen again, it happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco under Bill Clinton, innocent citizens were gunned down in cold blood. It's always a tragedy when it happens, and there is always the expression of remorse that it didn't have to happen.

That said, the Kent State tragedy had absolutely NOTHING to do with the "right wing getting their way!" Any more than Ruby Ridge or Waco had to do with liberal democrats getting their way! It's just a stupid and idiotic statement, made by a clown....that's you!
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You need to get your history a bit straighter, Ruby Ridge happened in August 1992, months before Clinton was elected. Weaver's family members were murdered by George H. W. Bush's DOJ. Makes Waco no less horrible, but just because you are a conservative doesn't mean it was ALL under Clinton. Hell, the Waco investigation and planning began in 1992 as well. The DOJ policy of extreme violence against "undesirables" has been continuous from one administration to another.
 
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