Immigrants vs. Illegal Aliens

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

In the hustle and bustle of everyday life in America, it is very easy for the 'common man' to become lost in the rhetoric, and find themselves uninformed on the key issues of the day. The left has been very successful in controlling the debate by dictating the terms and establishing the terminology used. This is precisely how "Health Care" became understood as "Civil Rights" and any or all counterpoints, rendered "racist" sentiments. This is how they often try to alter the debate on "Gay Marriage" ...no such thing as "gay marriage" or "same-sex marriage" because that isn't the definition of marriage. It's like ginning up support for the "endangered imitation crab!" But since they can change and alter the meanings of words, or outright misuse them by assigning new meaning, this is what they do many times.

One area this has become apparent to me, is the current debate over Arizona's new law and the issue of "illegal immigration" in America. I believe we have been duped into accepting a false definition and inference, and it is through this false perception the liberals find traction and support for their emotionalism and agenda. We should insist there is no such thing as an "illegal immigrant" they are ILLEGAL ALIENS! An "immigrant" is a foreign born person who migrates to the United States, to be a part of our country through legitimate citizenship. The Republicans/GOP/Neocons/Right-wingers/Teabaggers/etc. are NOT opposed to legal immigration! The beef is NOT the presence of legitimate immigrants, or enabling even more immigrants to come! But this profoundly important point is lost because the left has entrenched the phrase "illegal immigrants" and then conveniently drop the "illegal" part in the middle of the debate! They seek to make it appear the right is opposed to immigrants! Obviously because we are racist haters of people different than ourselves! The entire issue is turned around through a complete distortion of language, and dependent upon the ignorant and stupid, who don't realize this distortion.

It is ILLEGAL ALIENS we have a problem with. People who enter our country from the Mexican border illegally, without going through the usual checkpoints and scrutiny, without following the laws regarding immigration to the United States. These people have violated our security, and the law. They have nothing in common with "IMMIGRANTS!" Immigrants are people who come to America, study hard to pass the tests to become a part of the citizenry and realize the American Dream! They should be just as opposed (if not more so) to ILLEGAL ALIENS as any law-abiding American citizen! The only reason we don't see this, is because we've allowed the left to run wild with the perceptions based on misuse of the language. For that reason, MANY people mistakenly believe the left is for immigrants and the right is opposed to them... (obviously because we are bunch of racist haters.)

 

[Timshel]

It is ILLEGAL ALIENS we have a problem with. People who enter our country from the Mexican border illegally, without going through the usual checkpoints and scrutiny, without following the laws regarding immigration to the United States. These people have violated our security, and the law.

It is your side that attempts to control terminology even to the point of trying to redefine criminal. You do it above by confusing illegal alien/illegal immigrant/illegal whatever you want to call it (the important is really the illegal isn't it) as people who have committed the crime of illegal entry. They are not. Illegal aliens/immigrant/whatever did not necessarily enter illegally. But it enables you to paint them all as criminals who threaten our safety and so you bunch them all together.

They have nothing in common with "IMMIGRANTS!" Immigrants are people who come to America, study hard to pass the tests to become a part of the citizenry and realize the American Dream! They should be just as opposed (if not more so) to ILLEGAL ALIENS as any law-abiding American citizen! The only reason we don't see this, is because we've allowed the left to run wild with the perceptions based on misuse of the language. For that reason, MANY people mistakenly believe the left is for immigrants and the right is opposed to them... (obviously because we are bunch of racist haters.)

If you were really concerned about the honest immigrants then why would you want to lump all the civil violations together with criminal violations? There is a reason it is only a civil violation. It is reasonable to assume that a person fell out of compliance without any real intent to violate the law or upset the security of the state. Just like with speeding.

Now that is not to say everyone that is guilty of illegal presence just made an honest mistake. I don't believe that for a second. Just as I don't believe most speeders did it unaware. But we've all looked down at the speedometer and thought, "oh shit, I am speeding" (well those of us over 35, the kids would just speed up). The right wishes to lump all those illegally present with those who clearly intended to violate our law. It confuses the issue to the point that it misuses the word criminal.

A fine and possible deportation is sufficient punishment if they are first timers. Imprisonment would be unjustified without proof of willful intent to break the law. There is no reason to treat the illegally present as criminals unless you plan to lock them up.

The right wishes to refer to them as criminals, when they clearly are not and for good reason.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

It is your side that attempts to control terminology even to the point of trying to redefine criminal. You do it above by confusing illegal alien/illegal immigrant/illegal whatever you want to call it (the important is really the illegal isn't it) as people who have committed the crime of illegal entry. They are not.

Yes Stringy, someone who has violated our immigration laws and entered the country by sneaking in across the border, is committing a crime and is guilty of doing something illegal. I'm sorry you don't comprehend what the law says, or the fact that we have a sovereign border. We have a procedure to process immigrants into the United States legally, and for the most part, it works.

But we've all looked down at the speedometer and thought, "oh shit, I am speeding"

I don't think ANY illegal alien ever looked down at his feet and said... OH SHIT, I am NOT in Mexico anymore! I think most of them are somewhat aware of what they are doing, and haven't just strayed across the border looking for a Taco Bell! I'm sorry... I just don't buy that!

If you were really concerned about the honest immigrants then why would you want to lump all the civil violations together with criminal violations? There is a reason it is only a civil violation. It is reasonable to assume that a person fell out of compliance without any real intent to violate the law or upset the security of the state. Just like with speeding.

I'm concerned with stopping illegal aliens from continuing to cross our borders and further burden the governmental systems along our southern borders. I want our laws enforced and people deported, not jailed! Why should our tax dollars be spent taking care of illegal alien prisoners? And we have a real easy way of checking records and determining if someone "fell out of compliance" or never actually bothered with complying to our laws! This is more emotionalist spin from a left-wing moron who want to paint the perception in their favor.

 

[Timshel]

The Republican brain is more resistant to new information than cancer is to a cure.

Illegal entry is a crime. I clearly noted that and have repeated it numerous times in other threads. How did you miss that?

Not all illegal aliens entered the country illegally which I also pointed out. Are you going to deal with that or just try to ignore the stubborn fact that does not allow you to demonize immigrants?

 

[NOVA]

The Republican brain is more resistant to new information than cancer is to a cure.

Illegal entry is a crime. I clearly noted that and have repeated it numerous times in other threads. How did you miss that?

Not all illegal aliens entered the country illegally which I also pointed out. Are you going to deal with that or just try to ignore the stubborn fact that does not allow you to demonize immigrants?

Well Peckerhead, its like this....

Its sometimes irrelevant HOW one enters the country. If you overstay your visa, you're here illegally....you're breaking the law....by definition, you're a criminal.

I'm sure there is some 3rd or 4th grader around that can help you with defining those big words....

OK, Peckerhead....at ease.

 

[Timshel]

It's good to know you don't want to treat the illegally present as criminals, though you continue to spread the lie that they are.

I do think we should treat those guilty of illegal entry as criminals (if for nothing more than to give them a criminal record). Even some of those who have only ever been guilty of illegal presence should be treated as criminals if they show a disregard for the law through repeated violations.

But I am not willing to pretend the illegally present are all criminals. They are not. They should not all be treated as criminals and it is nothing but dishonest propaganda to call them criminals or pretend they are any real threat.

 

[Timshel]

Its sometimes irrelevant HOW one enters the country. If you overstay your visa, you're here illegally....you're breaking the law....by definition, you're a criminal.

Nope, you are guilty of a civil violation of the law. It is not a crime and the violator is no more a criminal than a person guilty of speeding is a criminal. I have explained the reasons why that is and should be. How many times do we have to go over this?

 

[Timshel]

And the distinction is very relevant here, because a lack of documentation only gives one probable cause that a civil violation has occurred. It is not probable cause of a crime.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Nope, you are guilty of a civil violation of the law. It is not a crime.....

WAIT! "Crime" is when you have broken a law! Also known as a "violation" of the law. Someone who breaks a civil law or criminal law, has still violated the law and has committed a crime, and to try and parse out some kind of distinctive difference is childish and ignorant. The distinction between "civil" and "criminal" law, is in how we implement punishment, civil violators are often fined, where criminal violators are often imprisoned, but the issue of who "broke the law" is not in question in either case.

As I stated before, I don't know of anyone who has a problem with legal immigration, or even people who accidentally became derailed from the appropriate process, we can deal with those isolated and rare cases on an individual basis, no one is proposing a 'blanket solution' to deal with these people by lumping them all in with the illegal aliens. But we need to have a frank and honest discussion about the fundamental difference in what is the issue, what is being portrayed as the issue, and the lack of honesty being perpetrated by the left over this. We've got to stop people from coming across our borders illegally, infiltrating our border states and draining the taxpayer resources. It's not personal, it's not racist, it's not a disdain for immigration! It's practical common sense, and the reality of the economic situation. We just can't afford to continue with the policies we presently have.

 

[NOVA]

Nope, you are guilty of a civil violation of the law. It is not a crime and the violator is no more a criminal than a person guilty of speeding is a criminal. I have explained the reasons why that is and should be. How many times do we have to go over this?

We are not in a courtroom Pinhead....we are just conversing in English words that have definitions...

crime

Also found in: Medical, Legal, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, Hutchinson 0.04 sec. crime (kr

m)n.1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources.

[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin cr

men; see krei- in Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
crime [kraɪm]n1. (Law) an act or omission prohibited and punished by law
2. (Law)a. unlawful acts in general a wave of crime
b. (as modifier) crime wave

3. an evil act
4. Informal something to be regretted it is a crime that he died young
----------------------------------------------------------------
crim·i·nal (krm-nl)
adj.
1. Of, involving, or having the nature of crime: criminal abuse.

One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime.
[Middle English, from Old French criminel, from Late Latin crminlis, from Latin crmen, crmin-, accusation; see crime.]
crimi·nal·ly adv.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
criminal [ˈkrɪmɪnəl]
n
1. (Law) a person charged with and convicted of crime
2. a person who commits crimes for a living
adj
1. (Law) of, involving, or guilty of crime
2. (Law) (prenominal) of or relating to crime or its punishment criminal court criminal lawyer
3. Informal senseless or deplorable a criminal waste of money

 

[Timshel]

Nope, you are guilty of a civil violation of the law. It is not a crime.....

WAIT! "Crime" is when you have broken a law! Also known as a "violation" of the law. Someone who breaks a civil law or criminal law, has still violated the law and has committed a crime, and to try and parse out some kind of distinctive difference is childish and ignorant. The distinction between "civil" and "criminal" law, is in how we implement punishment, civil violators are often fined, where criminal violators are often imprisoned, but the issue of who "broke the law" is not in question in either case.

You are saying the legal definition of a crime is not important to the definition of a crime. That's absurd. Civil violations of the law, by definition, are not crimes. PERIOD. You can claim otherwise if you like but you are just an idiot denying reality.

A person who commits a civil violation (e.g., a speeder, jaywalker, etc.) is not a criminal. He does not have to answer as a criminal when asked of prior criminal convictions.

It's not a crime. You can pretend otherwise but you do so by distorting the definition of a crime.

 

[Timshel]

We are not in a courtroom Pinhead....we are just conversing in English words that have definitions...

Is there some higher definition of crime than the legal one? I'd like to hear that. You can't be serious. A crime is what the state treats as a crime, meaning it is punishable by jail time.

All the definitions you gave prove you wrong. They all say someone who commits or is convicted of a crime. It's not a crime!

 

[NOVA]

You are saying the legal definition of a crime is not important to the definition of a crime. That's absurd. Civil violations of the law, by definition, are not crimes. PERIOD. You can claim otherwise if you like but you are just an idiot denying reality.

A person who commits a civil violation (e.g., a speeder, jaywalker, etc.) is not a criminal. He does not have to answer as a criminal when asked of prior criminal convictions.

It's not a crime. You can pretend otherwise but you do so by distorting the definition of a crime.

I'm gonna agree with you on the legal terms....

You can be in the country illegally and not be a criminal.....

BUT

"Improper entry by an alien" as it is called, is a violation of Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code punishable by a fine of between $50 and $250 and/or a maximum of six months in jail.

But playing these games is like debating Maineman, in other words, a bore.

 

[NOVA]

Is there some higher definition of crime than the legal one? I'd like to hear that. You can't be serious. A crime is what the state treats as a crime, meaning it is punishable by jail time.

All the definitions you gave prove you wrong. They all say someone who commits or is convicted of a crime. It's not a crime!

Yes...

crime

Also found in: Medical, Legal, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia, Hutchinson 0.04 sec. crime (kr

m)n.1. An act committed or omitted in violation of a law forbidding or commanding it and for which punishment is imposed upon conviction.
2. Unlawful activity: statistics relating to violent crime.
3. A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.
4. An unjust, senseless, or disgraceful act or condition: It's a crime to squander our country's natural resources.


The word has other uses than strictly legal conversation....and the dictionary recognizes that ....

 

[Timshel]

Deport Illegal Republicans

I have nothing against honest Republicans. But there is a difference. Illegal Republicans violate our laws. A person who crosses our border illegally is a criminal and so I think we should deport all Republicans that have ever had a civil infraction. Don't try an' tell me they are not really criminals. That's just some legal mumbo-jumbo. Legal definitions and the law have nothing to do with crime.

You honestly take this nonsense seriously?

 

[Timshel]

The "all illegal aliens are criminals" argument is an attempt to get around the morality. Repubs don't want to be seen as being hard on people that are just looking for a better life. So they paint them all as criminals and base that on pointing out that they have violated the law. BUT THE FUCKING LAW DOES NOT SAY IT IS A CRIME TO BE ILLEGALLY PRESENT.

If you want to make some argument that the illegally present have committed some sort moral offense, go ahead. I am not so sure you can make that argument about illegal entry.

 

[Timshel]

If you are going to point to the law as a means for demonizing their behavior as a crime it would be a good to actually consult the law on what a crime is.

 

[NOVA]

I have nothing against honest Republicans. But there is a difference. Illegal Republicans violate our laws. A person who crosses our border illegally is a criminal and so I think we should deport all Republicans that have ever had a civil infraction. Don't try an' tell me they are not really criminals. That's just some legal mumbo-jumbo. Legal definitions and the law have nothing to do with crime.

You honestly take this nonsense seriously?

Are you seriously gonna sit there and ignore Title 8 of the U.S. criminal code.


http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/8/12/II/VIII/1325
---------------------------------------------------------

Are you seriously gonna ignore the defintions of English words defined in our US Dictionaries ?

Are you gonna seriously debate or play word games ?

 

[NOVA]

Are you gonna learn something here or are you gonna just believe the shit the liberal peckerheads are telling you, i.e., that the Mexicans coming across our border are not really criminals....

I'm giving you SOLID PROOF that they are breaking 'criminal' law....

 

[Timshel]

Are you gonna learn something here or are you gonna just believe the shit the liberal peckerheads are telling you, i.e., that the Mexicans coming across our border are not really criminals....

I'm giving you SOLID PROOF that they are breaking 'criminal' law....

I have noted numerous times that illegal entry is a crime. By definition it is crime. No argument there, just like there is no argument that illegal presence is not a crime. Further, I have repeatedly noted that I think illegal entry should be a crime. My problem is with the lie that all illegal aliens are criminals. They are not. Your bait ans switch will not fly.