All you Tea Party rebellion folks....

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
I always find the defenders of the Branch Davidians interesting......David Koresh was a pedophile who was pulling a Jim Jones....an Australian private investigator hired by concerned family members had been trying to warn local and FBI authorities on this guy and his group for months regarding his stockpiling of weapons. The FBI was there when Koresh became a major suspect in the shooting death of the local sheriff that he had butted heads with for months. White separatist, anti-gov't extremist all try to portray Koresh and just an innocent that was cool with the local town. THAT IS A LIE. After 51 days, he and his core followers showed no signs of releasing any of the children and/or adults. Something had to be done.

Yes, the operation went bad, the deaths were unfortunate....but to portray the FBI as purposely or callously killing everyone there is a lie.

That being said, McVeigh has nothing to do with the teabagging jackasses running around strapped in Virginia today....as far as I know none of them are praising either McVeigh or Koresh.
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Damocles said:
Nobody is defending them, they are simply pointing out that if Koresh was the target they could have simply arrested him during his twice daily jogs where he ran right next to them (practically) unarmed.


It's flat stupid to ignore reality to say that those actions were all super-good because the government was protecting kids from Koresh.
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Naa-unnh, Damo. You're still trying to portray the FBI on a "terminate with extreme prejudice" mission instead of the royal foul-up they caused. You look at the time line....when the local sheriff was killed, Koresh wasn't "jogging" anywhere. By that time family members had convinced the FBI of what Koresh was up to. The Australian detective faults the FBI for not taking him seriously as to how well armed Koresh's group was. Bottom line: the schism between local and federal law enforcement coupled with basic "we know everything and will take it from here" attitudes led to the disaster....but make no mistake, Koresh and company were the bad guys holding people hostage.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Naa-unnh, Damo. You're still trying to portray the FBI on a "terminate with extreme prejudice" mission instead of the royal foul-up they caused. You look at the time line....when the local sheriff was killed, Koresh wasn't "jogging" anywhere. By that time family members had convinced the FBI of what Koresh was up to. The Australian detective faults the FBI for not taking him seriously as to how well armed Koresh's group was. Bottom line: the schism between local and federal law enforcement coupled with basic "we know everything and will take it from here" attitudes led to the disaster....but make no mistake, Koresh and company were the bad guys holding people hostage.
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Total Rubbish. You don't need a time line to see they didn't serve the arrest warrant for Koresh at their earliest opportunity, they were there for weeks with him jogging unarmed right past them.

You'd twist anything to make yourself feel good about what these people did in the name of government. It's almost sickening.

The man deserved arrest, not martyrdom.
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Naa-unnh, Damo. You're still trying to portray the FBI on a "terminate with extreme prejudice" mission instead of the royal foul-up they caused. You look at the time line....when the local sheriff was killed, Koresh wasn't "jogging" anywhere. By that time family members had convinced the FBI of what Koresh was up to. The Australian detective faults the FBI for not taking him seriously as to how well armed Koresh's group was. Bottom line: the schism between local and federal law enforcement coupled with basic "we know everything and will take it from here" attitudes led to the disaster....but make no mistake, Koresh and company were the bad guys holding people hostage.
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Damocles said:
Total Rubbish. You don't need a time line to see they didn't serve the arrest warrant for Koresh at their earliest opportunity, they were there for weeks with him jogging unarmed right past them.

WTF is the matter with you? Timelines don't matter? So I guess that's how you can repeat your little fantasy ad nauseum. Again for those interested in reality.....Koresh was a PRIME SUSPECT in the MURDER of the local sheriff by the time the FBI shows up, he wasn't tip-toeing through the tulips in the town square after the sheriff died....it is DOCUMENTED he had repeated run ins with the sheriff, and after the sheriff was murdered Koresh hightailed it to his compound. Family members and ex-Davidians had contacted the FBI alerting them to the Jim Jones situation going on at the compound....but they DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SHUT HIM DOWN VIA ARREST PRIOR TO THE SHOOTING. Koresh and company were in an open area...when the FBI gets on the scene and corroborates with local officials, he's not walking out, he's locking down.

You'd twist anything to make yourself feel good about what these people did in the name of government. It's almost sickening.

The man deserved arrest, not martyrdom.
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The only thing that is sickening is jokers like you who want to avoid the FACTS....Koresh WAS NOT ABOUT BEING ARRESTED....that's why he pulled a Jim Jones lock down. Yes, the FBI screwed up the takedown...but that DOES NOT EXCUSE WHO WAS THE MAIN CAUSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. Jokers like you will spin any tale in your quest to totally villify the FBI under Clintion. I've got no problem pointing out the errors on any administration, but I won't let the pro-militia/anti-gov't propagandist pave one inch of their bullshit over history. TFB if you don't like it.
 
Lots of those women and children were burned alive Libby. Yeah, Clinton was awesome. And big government is our friend.
 
Taichiliberal said:
The only thing that is sickening is jokers like you who want to avoid the FACTS....Koresh WAS NOT ABOUT BEING ARRESTED....that's why he pulled a Jim Jones lock down. Yes, the FBI screwed up the takedown...but that DOES NOT EXCUSE WHO WAS THE MAIN CAUSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. Jokers like you will spin any tale in your quest to totally villify the FBI under Clintion. I've got no problem pointing out the errors on any administration, but I won't let the pro-militia/anti-gov't propagandist pave one inch of their bullshit over history. TFB if you don't like it.
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Koresh was not the sort of guy I want to hang out with. But the operation was botched six ways from sunday.

They could have taken Koresh numerous times, but chose not to.

Koresh may or may not have been guilty of all he was charged with, since there was no trial we will never know.

This clusterfuck and the Ruby Ridge debacle are simply evidence that our gov't is willing to use excessive force without justification.
 
Ruby ridge happened under Bush one.

Sometimes our inforcement officers make mistakes.

The fact remains that weaver broke gun laws and refused to stay informed of his own court procedings.

The poeple SHOT TO DEATH an officer when the officers approached them.




Koresh was fucking little kids in his group.

He was a nutbar who thought he was Jesus.

You dont know the reasoning why they approached it the way they did, Not everything goes as planned and Koresh only had to surrender to end the mess. Hell he could have sent the children out if he cared about them so much. Instead he lit the place on fire.

They were both police actions that went awry. For other nutbars to then go kill children because a police action went awry is fucking insanity. What the right seems to want here is a repete of history.

They scream about someone about to come take their guns when they could not have held those guns in that park under Bush.

OBAMA let them have the guns in a national park and they go there and wave them arround saying hes coming after them.

Dont you see what they are doing ?

They are making new Randy Weavers and Koreshs with their insane rethoric who officers will have to deal with in hopes one of them turn into a McVeigh.

If they truely dont want another McVeigh then they need to stop creating more Weavers and Koreshes.

What we are trying to say is stop creating any of these idiots because NO ONE wins when nutbars are fucking lied to in ways that feed into their parinoid delousions that a black man is coming to steal their guns.

The Weavers were racist and Tim mcVeigh loved the Turner diaries which were racist.

There is a racist undertow to all of this.
 
Taichiliberal said:
The only thing that is sickening is jokers like you who want to avoid the FACTS....Koresh WAS NOT ABOUT BEING ARRESTED....that's why he pulled a Jim Jones lock down. Yes, the FBI screwed up the takedown...but that DOES NOT EXCUSE WHO WAS THE MAIN CAUSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. Jokers like you will spin any tale in your quest to totally villify the FBI under Clintion. I've got no problem pointing out the errors on any administration, but I won't let the pro-militia/anti-gov't propagandist pave one inch of their bullshit over history. TFB if you don't like it.
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what facts are you referring to? maybe the fact that koresh had been talking to an ATF agent for WEEKS before the raid? all the while KNOWING he was ATF, and STILL went in to town on a daily basis?

you're the joke here wonderblunder.
 
evince said:
Ruby ridge happened under Bush one.

Sometimes our inforcement officers make mistakes.

The fact remains that weaver broke gun laws and refused to stay informed of his own court procedings.

The poeple SHOT TO DEATH an officer when the officers approached them.






They were both police actions that went awry.


OBAMA let them have the guns in a national park and they go there and wave them arround saying hes coming after them.


The Weavers were racist and Tim mcVeigh loved the Turner diaries which were racist.

There is a racist undertow to all of this.
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The Weavers may have been racist. But they had done nothing illegal where that was concerned.

The weapons violation against Randy Weaver were relatively minor, and have been disputed. The fact that he missed his court date was because he was given the wrong date. This was admitted by the US Marshall Service.
The US Marshall Service also recommended that there be no tactical assault, but this was ignored.

Late at night the dogs started barking and Weaver's son went out to see why. Where they live it is not uncommon to have mountain lions, bears or other dangerous animals on the property at night. Weaver's son had a gun and was murdered by law enforcement.

But your classification of the sniper shooting an unarmed woman in the doorway of her own home as "...police actions that went awry" is insane.

If the Weavers are racist, that is bad. But it is far from a capital offense.




If you want to avoid creating more Weavers, perhaps the gov't not setting people up, screwing them over and murdering them would be a good first step?
 
evince said:
Ruby ridge happened under Bush one.

Sometimes our inforcement officers make mistakes.

The fact remains that weaver broke gun laws and refused to stay informed of his own court procedings.
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another idiot who adheres to bullshit FBI reports. It's well known and documented that the federal government sent a notice to Weaver with the wrong date for his hearing, prompting the raid. That isn't the fault of weaver.

evince said:
The poeple SHOT TO DEATH an officer when the officers approached them.
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deservedly so. people in cammies with guns shot their dog before ever announcing who they were, then shot the 14 year old boy in the back as he ran away. what honorable officers they were.



evince said:
You dont know the reasoning why they approached it the way they did,
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another hunk of bullshit. the raid had been in the planning for weeks and the media knew what date and time it was going to happen. It was a publicity stunt gone wrong.
 
Taichiliberal said:
The only thing that is sickening is jokers like you who want to avoid the FACTS....Koresh WAS NOT ABOUT BEING ARRESTED....that's why he pulled a Jim Jones lock down. Yes, the FBI screwed up the takedown...but that DOES NOT EXCUSE WHO WAS THE MAIN CAUSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. Jokers like you will spin any tale in your quest to totally villify the FBI under Clintion. I've got no problem pointing out the errors on any administration, but I won't let the pro-militia/anti-gov't propagandist pave one inch of their bullshit over history. TFB if you don't like it.
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Again, this is idiocy the man jogged past the ATF and FBI people who had them under "siege" for days. He continued to do it, they chose not to act when they could. It is idiotic to ignore the reality to try to make it okay that they killed the very kids you insist they were trying to "protect".

Koresh was bad, but bad decisions by the government by far made that situation worse than it ever had to be. In fact it turned it into a disaster of epic proportions and a recruiting tool for idiots who hate the government. You help that along when you grab their pile of bullpies with both hands and rub it all over yourself trying to make it smell better. It isn't going to. They could have resolved that part of this blindfolded and with two cops rather than infiltrating and killing everybody they were trying to "save".
 
Dixie said:
Well what? I stand behind every fucking word of it! That's not a THREAT of armed rebellion, you dimwit! That's me warning you that if this Marxist regime continues to usurp our Constitutional rights, and our traditional political remedies are no longer suitable, you can and will see an armed revolt by the people, the likes of which this nation has never seen before, and it won't be pretty. That's not a threat, that's not me calling people to arms, that is just a pragmatic viewpoint based in reality. You back the American people into a corner with this authoritarian totalitarian Fascist style socialism, and see what the fuck happens! Because, in the end, you ARE going to listen to the people, whether you like that or not!
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Priceless....
 
Hegemoron Sarah Palin's ignorant imperialism. By William Saletan

"Sarah Palin thinks Barack Obama is a wimp. She's been going around to Tea Party rallies, invoking the spirit of revolutionary Boston and castigating Obama for failing to exalt American power and punish our adversaries. She seems blissfully unaware that the imperial arrogance she's preaching isn't how the American founders behaved. It's how the British behaved, and why they lost. Palin represents everything the original Tea Party was against."

http://www.slate.com/id/2251267/


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lXBcROUAx4[/ame]
 
Superfreak said:
Clearly the violent Dems, led by Janet 'I'm coming for you Elian' Reno at the helm, only cared about destroying the entire compound.
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You brought it up, and the aniversuary of this event just happened...

Do you really belive that what Janet Reno did was wrong? Was it wrong for the Justice Department to enforce a delayed and blatently ignored Federal Court order?
 
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
The only thing that is sickening is jokers like you who want to avoid the FACTS....Koresh WAS NOT ABOUT BEING ARRESTED....that's why he pulled a Jim Jones lock down. Yes, the FBI screwed up the takedown...but that DOES NOT EXCUSE WHO WAS THE MAIN CAUSE FOR WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY. Jokers like you will spin any tale in your quest to totally villify the FBI under Clintion. I've got no problem pointing out the errors on any administration, but I won't let the pro-militia/anti-gov't propagandist pave one inch of their bullshit over history. TFB if you don't like it.
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Damocles said:
Again, this is idiocy the man jogged past the ATF and FBI people who had them under "siege" for days. He continued to do it, they chose not to act when they could. It is idiotic to ignore the reality to try to make it okay that they killed the very kids you insist they were trying to "protect".

PROVE IT! Please provide the documented evidence that Koresh was jogging in town after the sheriff was murdered. Please provide documentation that the ATF and FBI rolled into town and let Koresh jog around. When you can provide proof of this beyond your personal assertion, then we have grounds for a discussion. Until then, you're just blowing the same smoke that pro-militia/anti-gov't extremists do.

Koresh was bad, but bad decisions by the government by far made that situation worse than it ever had to be. No shit sherlock....I SAID THE GOV'T SCREWED UP HIS TAKEDOWN SEVERAL TIMES. In fact it turned it into a disaster of epic proportions and a recruiting tool for idiots who hate the government. Whose propaganda portions you seem willing to help spread and continue. You help that along when you grab their pile of bullpies with both hands and rub it all over yourself trying to make it smell better. Are you on crack?!??! How in the hell is my POINTING OUT THAT THE AUTHORITIES SCREWED UP AND THAT KORESH WAS A MONSTER doing what you allege? It isn't going to. No, your bullshit won't do..and until you can logically or factually prove otherwise, it won't stand the light of day either. They could have resolved that part of this blindfolded and with two cops rather than infiltrating and killing everybody they were trying to "save".
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As I said above...PROVE IT.
 
Damocles said:
Read up about it, here is a nice interview. Not only did he jog past the agents regularly, he also went into town to purchase things.

http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/8/2/thibodeau/index.html

The agents had no interest in serving an arrest warrant.
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David Thibodeau!!??!! HE'S your "proof"? Puh-leeze! His credibility on several accounts was shot LONG TIME ago. You gotta come back with something stronger than that, man.

Waco Survivor's Story: True or False?
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg24102.html
 
Taichiliberal said:
David Thibodeau!!??!! HE'S your "proof"? Puh-leeze! His credibility on several accounts was shot LONG TIME ago. You gotta come back with something stronger than that, man.

Waco Survivor's Story: True or False?
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg24102.html
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*sigh* (Says the guy who brings up a supposed e-mail from an anonymous source who can't even fix "duplicates" on his own website.)

That and other people, including cops, that said he jogged past their house consistently. He wasn't the only person in Waco, TX who noticed that Koresh jogged..

I thought you'd accept it more because it was on CNN.

Again, your attempt to defend the actions of the government belies your previous assertion that they messed up. On one hand you say one thing, then on the other you attempt with every ounce of your being to be an apologist for what they did. It's just that type of blind partisanship that fuels the fires you pretend to want to avoid.
 
Jarod said:
You brought it up, and the aniversuary of this event just happened...

Do you really belive that what Janet Reno did was wrong? Was it wrong for the Justice Department to enforce a delayed and blatently ignored Federal Court order?
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As it has already been mentioned... it is not the fact they went after Koresh that was wrong. It is the MANNER in which they did so that was wrong.
 
midcan5 said:
Hegemoron Sarah Palin's ignorant imperialism. By William Saletan

"Sarah Palin thinks Barack Obama is a wimp. She's been going around to Tea Party rallies, invoking the spirit of revolutionary Boston and castigating Obama for failing to exalt American power and punish our adversaries. She seems blissfully unaware that the imperial arrogance she's preaching isn't how the American founders behaved. It's how the British behaved, and why they lost. Palin represents everything the original Tea Party was against.
Click to expand...

The British didn't lose their power because of their own actions (arguably their lack of action), but because of destructive continental powers, chiefly the German nussiance. As for Palin, I think most people around here agree with you that she's an idiot...
 
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